Divine vs Arcane spells

[davypi]

I'm going to be GMing a Fantasy Hero game set in the Forgotten Realms universe (3.5e, before the spellplague). One of the difficulties I am running into is dealing with the classification of Arcane Magic vs Divine Magic. I understand that, thematically, it means they come from different sources and I've already browsed some of the threads that talk about how to deal with it mechanically. The difficulty I seem to be running into is spell classification. For example, traditionally, arcane spell casters can't heal or turn undead. So if I add that as rule, it disincentivizes (sp?) arcane magic. Divine magic has all that stuff plus two extra features, so why use arcane magic? There needs to be some tradeoff that makes arcane magic worthwhile. Browsing through the 3.5e rulebook, there are spells that clergy cannot cast, but I can't really figure out a good rule (even if it is gray) as to why those are excluded from the divine realm. Does anybody have any good guildelines as to how restrict these two domains and still keep their "flavor" intact?

[Lucius]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

Well, from what I remember from D&D, the magic users had generally more powerful spells than the clerics.

 

Also, clerics were more restricted in terms of producing enchanted items.

 

You might emphasize that clerics are just "borrowing" their power, and are not as free to use it however they wish.

 

You might restrict clerics to powers "appropriate" to their patrons, and leave the magic users unrestricted.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Cast a palindromedary spell

[ClassifiedTSBBR]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

I don't know if it applies to 3.x D&D, but I believe Divine Casters in earlier versions couldn't research/create new spells, whilst Magic-Users could.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

I'm going to be GMing a Fantasy Hero game set in the Forgotten Realms universe (3.5e' date=' before the spellplague). One of the difficulties I am running into is dealing with the classification of Arcane Magic vs Divine Magic. I understand that, thematically, it means they come from different sources and I've already browsed some of the threads that talk about how to deal with it mechanically. The difficulty I seem to be running into is spell classification. For example, traditionally, arcane spell casters can't heal or turn undead. So if I add that as rule, it disincentivizes (sp?) arcane magic. Divine magic has all that stuff plus two extra features, so why use arcane magic? There needs to be some tradeoff that makes arcane magic worthwhile. Browsing through the 3.5e rulebook, there are spells that clergy cannot cast, but I can't really figure out a good rule (even if it is gray) as to why those are excluded from the divine realm. Does anybody have any good guildelines as to how restrict these two domains and still keep their "flavor" intact?[/quote']

 

The whole 'arcane does this, divine does this' divide was utterly arbitrary and didn't make a lot of sense in any event (particularly since the bard, an arcane class, could also heal). What spells went on each list was similarly arbitrary.

 

In most FH spell systems I've seen, divine spells tend to be somewhat cheaper, with a limitation that amounts to 'you can't use this in a way contrary to your god's tenets' on top of the usual Gestures/Incantations/Focus. I'm not a huge fan of that limitation as it, too, is rather arbitrary; it's entirely possible that the player and the GM's views on just what constitutes 'against the god's tenets' are different (and yet both could be entirely correct; religions have a tendency towards multiple interpretations). On the other hand, you're playing FR, where the gods do exist and meddle in the affairs of people, so that may be entirely appropriate.

 

The other thing about D&D spells in 3e is the whole armor-thing; divine spells can be cast in armor without penalty, doing so for arcane spells risks failure. This could be represented by a limitation like 'takes a penalty to Magic skill roll equal to DEF of armor worn'.

[Markdoc]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

in D&D, the difference between what Divine casters can do and what arcane caster scan do is pretty close to entirely arbitrary. Arcane casters generally can't heal and they can't turn undead (though that's a seperate power, not actually a spell). Generally, arcane casters have more spells that augment their own capacities, and more directly-damaging spells, while divine casters get more spells to help others. When they do get damage spells, they typically get them later than arcane casters. But there are exceptions to all of those guidelines. The only real rule when designing spells for D&D is that there are no rules

 

In Hero system if you want to keep them distinct, try either tacking on some limitations "only when serving god's purposes" etc and build spell lists. In my last campaign, each god had a portfolio - like domains in D&D - and they only granted spells in that area. So you couldn't get a fireball spell from the Sea goddess, a healing spell from the War god, or a an anti-undead spell from anybody except the God of the Dead. That way priests had a very limited area of focus - but they got the benefits of belonging to a specific cult, they could learn new spells from the cult, etc, etc.

 

cheers, Mark

[Ragitsu]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

Of course it's arbitrary: it's setting flavour.

[Clonus]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

I'm going to be GMing a Fantasy Hero game set in the Forgotten Realms universe (3.5e' date=' before the spellplague). One of the difficulties I am running into is dealing with the classification of Arcane Magic vs Divine Magic. I understand that, thematically, it means they come from different sources and I've already browsed some of the threads that talk about how to deal with it mechanically. The difficulty I seem to be running into is spell classification. For example, traditionally, arcane spell casters can't heal or turn undead. So if I add that as rule, it disincentivizes (sp?) arcane magic. Divine magic has all that stuff plus two extra features, so why use arcane magic? There needs to be some tradeoff that makes arcane magic worthwhile.[/quote']

 

Not having to follow the edicts of an invisible pink pony or a spaghetti monster come to mind. Also there are lot more arcane magic items usable only by wizards than holy items only usable by priests..

[Zeropoint]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

Not having to follow the edicts of an invisible pink pony or a spaghetti monster come to mind.

 

Being a cleric of Pinkie Pie might be fun, for the right type of person.

 

Oh, and welcome to the board, Davy!

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

Being a cleric of Pinkie Pie might be fun' date=' for the right type of person. [/quote']

 

"Well, duh! Why do you think it's called an adventuring party?"

[Christopher]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

I'm going to be GMing a Fantasy Hero game set in the Forgotten Realms universe (3.5e' date=' before the spellplague). One of the difficulties I am running into is dealing with the classification of Arcane Magic vs Divine Magic. I understand that, thematically, it means they come from different sources and I've already browsed some of the threads that talk about how to deal with it mechanically. The difficulty I seem to be running into is spell classification. For example, traditionally, arcane spell casters can't heal or turn undead. So if I add that as rule, it disincentivizes (sp?) arcane magic. Divine magic has all that stuff plus two extra features, so why use arcane magic? There needs to be some tradeoff that makes arcane magic worthwhile. Browsing through the 3.5e rulebook, there are spells that clergy cannot cast, but I can't really figure out a good rule (even if it is gray) as to why those are excluded from the divine realm. Does anybody have any good guildelines as to how restrict these two domains and still keep their "flavor" intact?[/quote']

The difference is mainly damage output. While Clerics have some spells with decent damage output, most oft the time they are a "notch" weaker than equal level Wizards spells. Or they are as powerfull but only work against specific foes (counter-alignment, externar, undead).

 

I still have the dungeon masters guide and it's section on creating new spells:

"Arcane caster have no access to healing spells, but have the best damagign spells. If the spell is flashy or dramatic, it should propably be an arcane spell".

"Clerics are best at spells that deal with aligment and have the best selection of curative and repair spells. They also have the best selection of information-gathering spells (divinations)".

"Druids are best at spells that deal with plants and animals."

 

There are two tables for "damage caps" for Spells and the devine one is a "notch" worse. In addition just a 1d8 for Clerics counts like 2d6 for Arcana casters. Clerics often counter that by letting their spells go against limtied groups (this may mean the spell is one level lower than a unlimited one).

Good exampels are propably Magic Missile and Fireball.

Magic missile (or things like the elemental 1st SL porjectiles) is the top a Arcane spell of first level, vs single target* should do at max - 5 dies. The type of die varies, but that is based on how the defenses work (i.e. Magic missile is instant hit with almost no defense; the elemental spells need an attack roll and are effected by elemental resistances).

Fireball is the max 3rd SL multitarget spell sould do - 10 dies.

 

Divine casters have their single target, 5 dies spell at 2nd level.

And thier 10 dies multitarget spells at 4th.

 

*single target or "must split damage between all targets" are considered equal.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

You could also restrict Divine Casters based on their deities tenants - a follower of the God Of Winter just can't cast Fire spells, or something similar.

 

Basically, divide out spells not by 'arcane' and 'divine' but 'spheres of influence' and reduce which ones a Divine cast has. 'Undead' is a sphere the Divine gets. And not all Divine casters get access to all spheres. Maybe they get restricted to 3-6 spheres, and Arcane gets everything but the Heal and Undead spheres (or, you could lump those two into a "Life Cycle Sphere" that Arcane doesn't get at all).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

Thread drift:

 

It made no sense to me that EVERY god had a bugaboo about undead. God of the Sun, God of Healing, God of Light, God of Life, yeah. But would the god of Storms really care about undead one way or the other?

[Ragitsu]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

Thread drift:

 

It made no sense to me that EVERY god had a bugaboo about undead. God of the Sun, God of Healing, God of Light, God of Life, yeah. But would the god of Storms really care about undead one way or the other?

 

Depends on the context in which you frame "undead".

 

By the way, there are gods of death, and gods of undeath, too.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

Depends on the context in which you frame "undead".

 

By the way, there are gods of death, and gods of undeath, too.

 

Well, yeah, but they wouldn't have a bugaboo about them. They'd be all 'hey, undead, cool'. I just don't see why everybody has to pick a side there, basically ... and thus, I don't get why *every* cleric can either turn or control undead.

 

(another reason why the FH game I'm working on isn't going to fart around with divine magic.)

[Christopher]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

Thread drift:

 

It made no sense to me that EVERY god had a bugaboo about undead. God of the Sun, God of Healing, God of Light, God of Life, yeah. But would the god of Storms really care about undead one way or the other?

 

Well, yeah, but they wouldn't have a bugaboo about them. They'd be all 'hey, undead, cool'. I just don't see why everybody has to pick a side there, basically ... and thus, I don't get why *every* cleric can either turn or control undead.

 

(another reason why the FH game I'm working on isn't going to fart around with divine magic.)

I see some reasons:

1. WotC decided that every Cleric should be able to turn or controll undead. The same way every cleric can wear heavy armor or can easily cast Wound/Healing spells.

2. An undead is not a power soruce for gods. In fact they are power drains for the gods power. Living beings and thier believe however are the main sustenance force for gods. As undead attack and kill the living, every god (even the pro undead ones!) has a very good reason to not let undeads kill all humans.

3. Negative energy is a sort of "corruption" of the normal world. It's just "bad" for everyones goals. If allowed to spread uncontrolled it could tip the major driving force of the material plane from positive energy (life) to negative energy (everything dies). Of course a few select gods see it as tool to be used (controlling undead/instantly castign wounding spells) rather than exterminated on sight (turn undead).

[Ragitsu]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

Every god also has some hand in the afterlife of their followers.

[dmjalund]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

so who are the UnGods who promote the Undead?

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

so who are the UnGods who promote the Undead?

 

Late night tv presenters?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

so who are the UnGods who promote the Undead?

 

It would vary by campaign setting (assuming your setting even has gods, of course).

[Markdoc]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

Late night tv presenters?

 

He said un-dead, not brain-dead

 

cheers, Mark

[davypi]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

I just wanted thank all (ok... most) of you for your comments. This is the ruling I finally came up with, in case you're interested.

 

 

Divine magic users can create any spell/power they wish provided that agrees with (or at least doesn't contradict) the character of their god.

 

 

Arcane magic users must create a "school" or "domain" for all of their spells. You may create any school of magic you wish (pending approval), but your spells must fit the theme of the school. (FH254 has a list of example schools.) If you have at least 25 character points in your school, there are no penalties. If you wish to start learning spells from a new school, you must first "bank" 5 points into that school and then create a small spell (i.e. "cantrip") of 5 points or less. Once you have spent five points in that school, you again must bank five. Once you have spent at least 15 points on at least two spells and used them for a short time (one or two encounters) you will then have a learning "break through." You can then spend the 10 banked points to either buff your two spells or create new ones. The purpose of the bank is to make it expensive for a character to simply take one spell outside of their forte, but it similarly does not penalize them once they have made a long term commitment to that school. Arcane users are not prohibited from healing. You can, if you wish, create a "School of Anatomy" which would include things like Healing, Aid, and Polymorph.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Divine vs Arcane spells

 

Let us know how it works out in play.