Let's talk about movement

[Sean Waters]

Movement in Hero has a number of issues, and I thought it might be nice to have a brainstorming session to identify and discuss some of them.

 

The biggest problem, to me, with movement is that you can have a SPD 12 character with a Run 12m (144m per Turn, or a little over 43kmph), or a SPD 6 character with Run 24 (same distance) but the second character does more damage if they pull a move through, even though they are both moving at identical velocity.

 

One way to address this is buy movement on a per Turn basis, in multiples of SPD (for convenience sake), but if you do that, how do you cost it? Either you substantially increase movement costs or you have some weird calculations to do.

 

Another issues is acceleration and deceleration, and turning. I don’t know about you but I largely ignore this because it is a bit complicated to work out.

 

If I am Run 30m and I want to run over to someone, stop and punch them in the nose, you have to first accelerate (at 5m per metre), so first metre you are travelling at 5m, then second metre 10, then 15, 20, 25 and finally, by your 6^th metre you are travelling at 30m, which means you would be accelerating or decelerating for 10 of the 30m and so you should (assuming a standing start and a stop) only be able to cover a bit over 25 metres. No one works that out, do they? Do we even need to bother with acc/dec for combat speeds? Then if you assume that you CAN stop at the end of a move action, turn mode is irrelevant for turns between phases.

 

Then we have individual move powers: where is the sense in being able to use movement to resist KB? Why should you be able to lift as much in flight as you can on solid ground? Why is Stretching not a movement power?

 

Any thoughts?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Let's talk about movement

 

All games have wonky mechanics. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, don't think about it too hard, move on.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Let's talk about movement

 

"You're in a good mood today."

"And why wouldn't I be? I just had a movement Beethoven would be proud of!"

 

 

...not to crap on your thread.

I kill me.

[gojira]

Re: Let's talk about movement

 

Got to agree with the Collie, Sean. This is not a problem. I'd just say "keep player character SPD close together, say in a tight range of 3" and that'll avoid most of the ill effects of wonky SPD.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Let's talk about movement

 

"The biggest problem, to me, with movement is that you can have a SPD 12 character with a Run 12m (144m per Turn, or a little over 43kmph), or a SPD 6 character with Run 24 (same distance) but the second character does more damage if they pull a move through, even though they are both moving at identical velocity."

 

Ahh but perhaps you could work this in. Let's say after the first segment you do nothing but move. Then in segment two, you are simply continuing that same move when you whack someone. If so, you really should get a move through at 24m instead of just 12m.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Let's talk about movement

 

It's basically an effect of the game having to have things go in atomic segments (not 'Segments' the game term) for the sake of our sanity, while in the 'game world' they would be occurring simultaneously or close to it. The game mechanics require, say, 'move on your phase, not move for a segment or two, then move again' because it needs a regimented way of resolving actions so everybody isn't trying to do everything at the same time. In the game world, however, the character is moving continuously.

[Christopher]

Re: Let's talk about movement

 

When I read a text about the re-pricing of Movement Powers right (APG I 77), they are currently in part priced based on their ability to add damage.

 

SPD increases your movement per turn. But just because you have more SPD, deos not means you should also add more velocity damage. Turn-velocity increasing is the bug, not what you describe.

If you want the "adding damage" function of Movement to Increase, you have to actually buy movement - you can't just multiply it with a little more spd. They same way you can't jsut increase how much damage you add with STR by buying more SPD*

The current rule also means you pay full endurance for the movement power in the phase you make the attack in. That way Movement works a lot like STR for addign damage.

 

 

*On a thought here: Technically extra SPD may allow you to do mroe damage - it's easier to do haymakers and other longer maneuvers. So maybe we should allow to Haymaker a Move-by/Through Maneuver.

[gojira]

Re: Let's talk about movement

 

I'd consider doing something really, really simple. Like: everybody has a non-combat speed of 2. Then, everyone runs at base-movement x 8. (That's x4 for NCM and x2 for Speed.)

 

But I think only for Heroic games. Supers kind of need crazy speed differences.

 

Edit: I think that works out to 8 m/s, if I can still do math. Which is 100m in 12.5 seconds, which is a pretty good approximation of a "normal" speed. I think I could do about that in high school. Hmm.

[Christopher]

Re: Let's talk about movement

 

When I read a text about the re-pricing of Movement Powers right (APG I 77)' date=' they are currently in part priced based on their ability to add damage.[/quote']

Let's check/explain that theory a little:

Afaik Move-Maneuvers* only work with HTH-Attacks to wich you can add STR. As I understand it they provide in fact extra STR to add to the attack, not a general DC-Bonus like Haymaker, Martial Maneuvers with Bonus DC or Martial DC.

The rate at wich DC are added is very close to STR for Move-through (1 DC/6m to 1 DC/5 STR)

Both the DC-Bonus from STR and Movement (relative to a Move-through) is halved in case of a Move-by**

You get 12 Running for free. As with the 10 STR, you can use it to add (exactly) 2 DC. Using this costs you 1 END in both cases.

If you double your Running and STR, you double what a Move-Maneuver adds to the damage.

In a way Non-comabt movement is "haymakering" a Move-by. You can double what the Running Adds, by reducing OCV to 0 and DCV to 1/2.

 

 

*Move-by, Move-through, Martial Maneuvers with +v/6 or + v/10 Element, etc.

**this is a special of the Standart Maneuver move-by, +v/10 Maneuvers do not suffer this penalty on the used STR unless noted.

 

 

So, I still think:

If you want to add more damage from velocity based maneuvers, you have to buy more running like you would have to buy more STR.

That SPD increases the Movement Rate/Turn is the bug. So if at all, we should decouple movement/turn from SPD. Maybe rating movement Powers in Movent/Turn and then spliting that between phases would work?

[Istaran]

Re: Let's talk about movement

 

When I read a text about the re-pricing of Movement Powers right (APG I 77)' date=' they are currently in part priced based on their ability to add damage.[/quote']

 

I'm thinking something along the lines of:

Halve existing costs movement costs. (This maybe should be 1/4 or so, to reflect realistic average SPD)

Movement is now per turn: divide by SPD (round down?) to determine move/phase. (this can be done dynamically: if your speed is adjusted, it would affect your move/phase.)

Damage is now calculated based on your move/turn, not your move/phase. Set the formula appropriately for the points to damage ratio to be right.

 

Pros:

SPD doesn't multiply up your MPH/KPH. If you want to be faster at moving, you buy more movement.

Velocity damage is still paid for with a fixed AP to DC ratio. (Probably the same ratio.)

Velocity damage is now related to MPH/KPH consistantly.

 

Cons:

Movement powers are more confusing to price. This is especially an issue when buying up SPD with xp.

Certain movement types (Leaping/Teleportation) may need ability to make multi-phase movements to clear larger gaps, as it gets much pricier for high SPD characters to clear those gaps. (Or takes on the wierdness that the maximum gap you can clear is higher if you temporarily voluntarily lower your SPD.) (Does HERO already have this? I forget.) Maybe something like the ability to make a leap of up to 1 Turn (spending the intervening time in mid-air) or spend up to 1 Turn charging up a teleport before suddenly BAMFing. (is it better or worse for the multiphase teleport to remove you from play until completed? Should it be an option? an advantage?)

The other big con is that it changes the balance between velocity-based characters and others, presumably making high MPH/KPH characters more pricey. (Possibly making lower velocity characters slightly cheaper to add movement modes, depending on the price formula.) In particular, high SPD characters will feel a loss of mobility, probably reflected in lower velocity purchases.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Let's talk about movement

 

If by Talk About you mean "Over Think" ....

 

One step to help mitigate the inevitable 'turn based' method of tracking movement, location, velocity, etc... is to extend the Velocity Based DCV Rules into other areas;

 

Velocity Based Damage

Velocity Based Turn Mode (instead of meters of movement based)

 

I'm sure people could think of more.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Let's talk about movement

 

If by Talk About you mean "Over Think" ....

 

One step to help mitigate the inevitable 'turn based' method of tracking movement, location, velocity, etc... is to extend the Velocity Based DCV Rules into other areas;

 

Velocity Based Damage

Velocity Based Turn Mode (instead of meters of movement based)

 

I'm sure people could think of more.

 

It is hardly overthinking: there is a very obvious dichotomy.

 

The trouble with making damage velocity based is that there is an interaction between velocity and SPD, which makes buying movement awkward, and, effectively makes the cost of movement inconsistent: the advanatage at present is that 10 points of running gets you a set amount of added damage - the problem is that velocity based damage DOES make sense: you get extra damage because of your velocity.

 

You can ignore it/live with it, and, if this was a 'this came up in a game and I do not know what to do' question, that would be a good answer, but I was just trying to see if anyone could suggest a straightforward way to reconcile the issues, even if it involes a reasonably major direction change (pun intended, obviously).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Let's talk about movement

 

Well, one way - to continue to work within the limitations of a turn based game system (so we don't all go batty) is to assume one's current "velocity" is always based on Meters/Turn (m/T) and not "How many Meters can I run, and have I accelerated to that yet?"

 

Frex;

10m of Running, Spd 2 (I'm keeping numbers low, and simple) can move a maximum of 20m/T.

Given that A) they can only run 10m in a Phase, and it takes a full Turn to accelerate to the complete 20m/T Velocity:

 

On Phase 6 they get a running start to a 10m/T velocity, but the enemy is 20m away so that's a Full Move, they're done. On Phase 12 they can continue to run at the enemy, and attain their maximum 20m/T Velocity and do an additional full 2DC of damage (still only moving their maximum 10m/Phase).

 

Now, the next guy has 10m of Running, but Spd4. That's twice the velocity - given all 4 Phases this guy can attain a full 4DC of additional damage, if he only has 2 Phases to get his Full Move (10m) in he'll only add 2DC.

 

And if both characters just launch at the target in 1 Phase, doing their 10m maximum Combat Movement, both get the minimum 1DC of damage they could add.

 

It probably starts to get more complicated as 1/2 and Full Moves are combined.... but not much more so, just add up additions to Velocity based on how far they've moved versus standard Acceleration Rules.

[casualplayer]

Re: Let's talk about movement

 

Buy movement per turn but allow the character to apportion the meters per segment out however they choose. If the character moves more than total movement per turn/SPD in a single segment it counts as a full-move, with all the penalties and limitations involved.

[Istaran]

Re: Let's talk about movement

 

Well, one way - to continue to work within the limitations of a turn based game system (so we don't all go batty) is to assume one's current "velocity" is always based on Meters/Turn (m/T) and not "How many Meters can I run, and have I accelerated to that yet?"

 

Frex;

10m of Running, Spd 2 (I'm keeping numbers low, and simple) can move a maximum of 20m/T.

Given that A) they can only run 10m in a Phase, and it takes a full Turn to accelerate to the complete 20m/T Velocity:

 

On Phase 6 they get a running start to a 10m/T velocity, but the enemy is 20m away so that's a Full Move, they're done. On Phase 12 they can continue to run at the enemy, and attain their maximum 20m/T Velocity and do an additional full 2DC of damage (still only moving their maximum 10m/Phase).

 

Now, the next guy has 10m of Running, but Spd4. That's twice the velocity - given all 4 Phases this guy can attain a full 4DC of additional damage, if he only has 2 Phases to get his Full Move (10m) in he'll only add 2DC.

 

And if both characters just launch at the target in 1 Phase, doing their 10m maximum Combat Movement, both get the minimum 1DC of damage they could add.

 

It probably starts to get more complicated as 1/2 and Full Moves are combined.... but not much more so, just add up additions to Velocity based on how far they've moved versus standard Acceleration Rules.

 

This suggestion is something of a poor simulation. By the end of the first phase when they are up to their full movement per phase, they are at their full combat velocity.That is, the SPD 4 guy is already going twice the velocity of the SPD 2 guy. It's only his average velocity over the last 12 seconds that will take him 12 seconds to build up to full, his instantaneous velocity is already there, and that's what's going to determine how hard he slams into things.

 

It is however, possibly, a reasonable balance especially if we are going to keep the existing price scheme. Effectively you would be able to burn phases building up your momentum to get in one really solid hit. You would give up the attacks in between to add over-cap dice to your one big wallop.

[psyber624]

Re: Let's talk about movement

 

The problem is that trying to decouple "Movement" Speed from "Character" Speed will wind up creating all kinds of complications for a character. You would basically have to say you move 1/12th of your "turn" speed per segement, and can only modify it on your actual Phases (similar to vehicles with speeds different than your own.) All other systems still fail to accurately model movement (as theoretically even speed 2 doesnt move "1/2" of their total possible movement in their 1 second phase, then sit still through all other phases till they can move the other 1/2 in their next phase). Allowing speed to increase movement to increase total velocity in a turn is honestly less of an issue, in my opinion, than forcing players who want to move fast to buy gobs of extra speed (and then get insanely powerful movethroughs on all their phases...) Remember, if you do a system like that, you are inherently allowing a high speed character to "use" his high speed more often, resulting in him getting even more "free" damage over a lower speed character. While that may be more realistic (and as a GM you could certainly play it that way in your own campaigns if you like) it just makes speed even more powerful than it already is. IMO

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Let's talk about movement

 

The main dichotomy comes because we mix up number of effective actions I can do with how fast I can run...

 

If you want a decent resolution then separate out movement speed from actions. I reckon action speed is worth probably four times movement Speed. So we get Actions (8 points per point) and Speed (2 points per point). Both start at base of 2.

 

One additional stat.

 

So, all damage is now based on how many metres per turn you run. Not had any thoughts on how many metres per turn equals 1D6....

[Christopher]

Re: Let's talk about movement

 

So' date=' all damage is now based on how many metres per turn you run. Not had any thoughts on how many metres per turn equals 1D6....[/quote']

The current rule is that 6m/6 Character Points* of movement equals +1 DC - if you do the maneuvers to use the Speed and use that amount of Speed.

 

 

*exceptions to this are swimming and leaping. But then again, they are harder to use in a move-maneuver. Maybe normal costs (1m = 1 CP) with a mandaroty -1 Limitation would be cleaner here.