Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

[ioticus]

I don't particularly like using Extra Dimensional Movement or Transform to make a wish spell. I think they're undefined for that purpose. Has anyone thought of using a Variable Power Pool with the UBO advantage and one charge that never recovers to make a wish spell? For example:

 

Wish spell:

 

Magic Roll: -9

 

Variable Power Pool:

 

One Charge that Never Recovers (-4)

 

Cosmic (+2)

 

120 Point Control; 120 Point Pool

 

Cost 36/120 = 156 points

 

Spell Modifiers:

 

Usable By Other (+1/4)

 

OAF Expendable (large, flawless ruby; -2)

 

Concentration (0 DCV throughout casting; -1/2)

 

Extra Time (1 minute; -1 1/2)

 

Gestures and Incantations (-1)

 

Requires a Magic Roll (-1 per 20 Active Points; -1/4)

 

Side Effect (permanently lose 5 Character Points automatically per casting; -1)

 

Active Cost 195

Real Cost 27

 

I don't think it's technically legal to apply UBO on a Power Framework as a whole, but I think this works better than Extra Dimensional Movement or Transform (which requires you to make everything up).

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

One charge that never recovers AND a side effect to lose CPs? You're already spending 27 on it so this seems redundant. Otherwise, I think it's a valid build.

[ioticus]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

My interpretation was that he doesn't lose the spell (and the 27 points he bought the spell with) since the Non Recoverable charge does not apply to the casting, only the effect of the spell. This gives you one wish (a single slot in the VPP) only for every 5 character points you permanently spend.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

1 Charge That Never Recovers is effectively losing the Character Points spent on that ability when it's used. You don't get them back, you don't get to reallocate unless you have an excessively nice GM, they're gone.

[Christopher]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

About using Transform:

Where exactly is the problem with it?

If it is the craetion of Objects, APG II 32 has Rules for "Object Creation", a new Power.

 

About Charge that never Recovers:

This either means that caster can only grant that VPP once in his lifetime or that a Target can use it only once and never be granted a wish by the same character ever again.

Also charges mean that every power the VPP is used for becomes Instant with a 1 Phase duration. Not really that usefull for most wishes.

One charge might be more aprropirate. But generally charges on a UOO power are tricky:

Either thier status "sticks" around between uses for the normal recovery duration or they loose a lot of their limitation value. And Charges also have a big 0 END advantage worked into them.

 

About CP-loss:

It sounds like you try to reverse-engineer D&D's "pay XP" system here. However the XP-cost was a Fix for bug Hero does not share - lack of alternative ways you can limit Spellcasting.

I would try to use something like "Charge that recovers every month" or a Side Effect with a "Drain, Reduced recovery" before trying to reverse enginer that clunky thing. Just draining the very power you just use would prevent characters from over-usign it.

 

Granting a VPP:

I am not so certain about that. Building a UOO Power in a VPP is not that problematic. Could you give us examples of things that do not work with a Transform?

[Tasha]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

I don't particularly like using Extra Dimensional Movement or Transform to make a wish spell. I think they're undefined for that purpose. Has anyone thought of using a Variable Power Pool with the UBO advantage and one charge that never recovers to make a wish spell? For example:

 

Wish spell:

 

Magic Roll: -9

 

Variable Power Pool:

 

One Charge that Never Recovers (-4)

 

Cosmic (+2)

 

120 Point Control; 120 Point Pool

 

Cost 36/120 = 156 points

 

Spell Modifiers:

 

Usable By Other (+1/4)

 

OAF Expendable (large, flawless ruby; -2)

 

Concentration (0 DCV throughout casting; -1/2)

 

Extra Time (1 minute; -1 1/2)

 

Gestures and Incantations (-1)

 

Requires a Magic Roll (-1 per 20 Active Points; -1/4)

 

Side Effect (permanently lose 5 Character Points automatically per casting; -1)

 

Active Cost 195

Real Cost 27

 

I don't think it's technically legal to apply UBO on a Power Framework as a whole, but I think this works better than Extra Dimensional Movement or Transform (which requires you to make everything up).

 

A wish is so powerful and potentially campaign changing that it's really beyond the scope of what powers should do. Since it can change reality, I would just use old GM Fiat to implement one.

 

I would never allow a player to have it as an ability they could just use at will.

 

With the system one skill is the ability to know when to write something up using powers and when to just adjudicate it as a campaign effect.

[Tasha]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

About using Transform:

Where exactly is the problem with it?

If it is the craetion of Objects, APG II 32 has Rules for "Object Creation", a new Power.

 

About Charge that never Recovers:

This either means that caster can only grant that VPP once in his lifetime or that a Target can use it only once and never be granted a wish by the same character ever again.

Also charges mean that every power the VPP is used for becomes Instant with a 1 Phase duration. Not really that usefull for most wishes.

One charge might be more aprropirate. But generally charges on a UOO power are tricky:

Either thier status "sticks" around between uses for the normal recovery duration or they loose a lot of their limitation value. And Charges also have a big 0 END advantage worked into them.

 

About CP-loss:

It sounds like you try to reverse-engineer D&D's "pay XP" system here. However the XP-cost was a Fix for bug Hero does not share - lack of alternative ways you can limit Spellcasting.

I would try to use something like "Charge that recovers every month" or a Side Effect with a "Drain, Reduced recovery" before trying to reverse enginer that clunky thing. Just draining the very power you just use would prevent characters from over-usign it.

 

Granting a VPP:

I am not so certain about that. Building a UOO Power in a VPP is not that problematic. Could you give us examples of things that do not work with a Transform?

 

Sometimes a transformation will work, but there are wishes that a Transform will not work for (ie how much body does reality have anyway?)

 

There was a pay XP system that was designed to limit Magic item creation in Fantasy Hero. Monte Cook cribbed it for use in 3.0 D&D when he worked on that project.

 

A wish is a campaign effect. It really doesn't need a writeup.

[ioticus]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

1 Charge That Never Recovers is effectively losing the Character Points spent on that ability when it's used. You don't get them back' date=' you don't get to reallocate unless you have an excessively nice GM, they're gone.[/quote']

 

Again, the charge only applies to the VPP, it's not a limitation on the casting of the spell. The recipient can only use the VPP once, but the caster can continue to cast it as long as he has 5 cp to spend. Please reread the rules for UBO.

 

About using Transform:

Where exactly is the problem with it?

If it is the craetion of Objects, APG II 32 has Rules for "Object Creation", a new Power.

 

With a VPP the player can use whatever power he wishes to create his effect. Much more flexible than limiting yourself to a single power like transform.

 

About Charge that never Recovers:

This either means that caster can only grant that VPP once in his lifetime or that a Target can use it only once and never be granted a wish by the same character ever again.

Also charges mean that every power the VPP is used for becomes Instant with a 1 Phase duration. Not really that usefull for most wishes.

One charge might be more aprropirate. But generally charges on a UOO power are tricky:

Either thier status "sticks" around between uses for the normal recovery duration or they loose a lot of their limitation value. And Charges also have a big 0 END advantage worked into them.

 

No, the charges limitation ONLY APPLIES to the control cost and ONLY effects how many times the pool can be allocated (one time in this case). The slot in the pool does not have to have the same charge limitation. Please reread the rules on VPP.

 

"About CP-loss:

It sounds like you try to reverse-engineer D&D's "pay XP" system here. However the XP-cost was a Fix for bug Hero does not share - lack of alternative ways you can limit Spellcasting.

I would try to use something like "Charge that recovers every month" or a Side Effect with a "Drain, Reduced recovery" before trying to reverse enginer that clunky thing. Just draining the very power you just use would prevent characters from over-usign it.

 

Granting a VPP:

I am not so certain about that. Building a UOO Power in a VPP is not that problematic. Could you give us examples of things that do not work with a Transform?"

 

Why are you insisting on using Transform? You can use a Transform in the VPP if you like. Or not.

[Christopher]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

A wish is so powerful and potentially campaign changing that it's really beyond the scope of what powers should do. Since it can change reality, I would just use old GM Fiat to implement one.

 

I would never allow a player to have it as an ability they could just use at will.

 

With the system one skill is the ability to know when to write something up using powers and when to just adjudicate it as a campaign effect.

There are very different magnitudes for the meaning of "Wish".

I wish for a baziollion units of money, but nothing hapens.

The 9th level Cleric casts the spell "Wish" twice to let the Tarasque stay dead, and it works.

And we have not even reached the point where it is plot device yet.

 

Again' date=' the charge only applies to the VPP, it's not a limitation on the casting of the spell. The recipient can only use the VPP once, but the caster can continue to cast it as long as he has 5 cp to spend. Please reread the rules for UBO.[/quote']

I do understand that part. But I actually made a rules question to Steve long about Charges and UOO.

If you use that spell as written the following happens:

PC A grants PC B the wish.

PC B uses the one charge

Sometime later the UOO ends.

 

Anytime later (next phase or 200 Years) PC A wants to grant B another wish.

PC B get's the VPP - with no charge to use it. Thet status of charges stays between "grantings" of powers, at least as far as the usual recovery rules for that charge. After all it would not be really a charge Limitation if you can jsut refill it by granting the power again. Much less would it be a charge that never recovers, if you can recover it instantly by recieving the spell again.

 

With a VPP the player can use whatever power he wishes to create his effect. Much more flexible than limiting yourself to a single power like transform.

But only as long as one Phase. Then any power ends, even Persistent ones.

See Charge Rules.

 

Why are you insisting on using Transform? You can use a Transform in the VPP if you like. Or not.

You can't use transform on yourself.

Also note that you could simply give the wish granter the VPP.

And the following writeup seems simply and clean enough:

Grant Wish: Severe Transform: Being into being with a Wish ('Wish can be any other legal power build at selection of the target with a AP not higher than this Power.' 'Healed by using the Wish').

Instant single use power with defined AP limit and one Charge.

[ioticus]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

Okay, if that is the way Steve Long says the charge should work then my VPP build doesn't work as written and Transform is the way to go. I think it's a shame though since I think a VPP would be the best way to do it if the rules allowed.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

A wish is so powerful and potentially campaign changing that it's really beyond the scope of what powers should do. Since it can change reality' date=' I would just use old GM Fiat to implement one.[/quote']

 

This. A 'wish' is 100 percent pure plot device.

[Christopher]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

Okay' date=' if that is the way Steve Long says the charge should work then my VPP build doesn't work as written and Transform is the way to go. I think it's a shame though since I think a VPP would be the best way to do it if the rules allowed.[/quote']

While you can't use Chages that way, you could always use a different Limitation. Maybe that the "Grant" stops after one use of the power?

A VPP is at it's best when you "can't think of all the uses in advance".

 

Transform has a advantage in it's simplicty: It can do pretty much what the GM wants/allows it to do.

You could write this power "God Mode: Severe Transform ('Being into 2000 point godlike being', 'healed by very obsucre methods')" for a 400 point game and it would totally be "inside" the power abilities. Even if you only pay for one Pip of Effect (1 Body per use, 5 Base Points).

 

This. A 'wish' is 100 percent pure plot device.

You interpreation of what "Wish" means is a plot device.

There are several others, including:

7 Music Albums

3 Songs

a manga

a UNIX shell

several more things in the area of Informatic.

 

A spell in D&D with very well defined and totally not-plot-devicy powers:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Wish

[Tasha]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

There are very different magnitudes for the meaning of "Wish".

I wish for a baziollion units of money, but nothing hapens.

The 9th level Cleric casts the spell "Wish" twice to let the Tarrasque stay dead, and it works.

And we have not even reached the point where it is plot device yet.

 

Exactly, both are plot devices. The 17th level Wizard casts wish (Clerics don't get wish they get something similar, both the Cleric and Wizard spells are max level spells Lvl 9 for the spell meaning lvl 17 minimum to cast. With a ton of expensive materials required.)

 

A character "Wishing" for a ton of money and nothing happening doesn't need a power. A character wishing for a Billion Dollars and getting it has just spent 15pts on Filthy Rich and the "Wish" was the Plot device that explains how they suddenly got so rich.

 

The High Level Caster using a "Wish" to banish/ Imprison/ Kill the Tarrasque is also a Plot device with a proper set piece battle where the PC's battle the monster while the Caster(PC or NPC) casts the spell that will keep the monster down.

 

You are overthinking this. One other secret to Hero is Keep it Simple (AKA KISS). Usually the simplest writeup tends to be the most accurate writeup. Sometimes you have to factor down a writeup. Sometimes you have to know when not to write up something.

 

This is like the Villain's Mind Control Ray. Yeah you could write it up and waste all of that time doing the power writeup for something that you as GM will either decide "yes this works they way I describe" or "No, it goes awry in some way"

[Sean Waters]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

To reiterate and expand a couple of points:

 

1. 'Wish' does not necesssarily mean that you can do anything - wishes usually come with a limitation on power. If a wish is 'do anything' then it is almost certainly a plot device, but even original DnD 9th level Wish spells could not do 'anything'.

2. The granting of a wish does not necessarily imply handing control of the wish to another person. If a genie grants the wish then it is the genie that casts the wish. That would prevent the need to buy UBO for the whole power, making it cheaper.

3. A wish in a universal focus could be used by anyone. You could potentially also use the 5 point doubling rule to make more, so even if you have 'one charge that never recovers' you are only using up the one 'wish bean' (or whatever) that is needed for that casting. Wild abuse, but completely legal. Yin and yang.

4. Using EDM for wishes does not work. It SEEMS to work, from the point of view of the caster, but from the point of view of the caster's companions, all that happens is that the caster disappears (presumably to a better place...), leaving them in the lurch. EDM wishes do not change the universe, they move you to another universe where your wish has happened. EDM is a movement power.

5. Transform is OK for some things but not for others. You can not really transform the city slum into a mini Nirvana with Transform because you are never going to roll enough Body.

6. We've kicked around the idea in the past of building wish as a summon: basically you build a powerful summoned being that probably has a big VPP, and the summoned being has one task - to fulfil your wish. Again, this approach can have serious limitations but is worth considering.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

A man was walking along a California beach and stumbled across an old lamp. He picked it up and rubbed it and out popped a genie. The genie said, "OK. You released me from the lamp, blah blah blah. This is the fourth time this month and I'm getting a little sick of these wishes so you can forget about three. You only get one wish!"

 

The man sat and thought about it for a while and said, "I've always wanted to go to Hawaii but I'm scared to fly and I get very seasick. Could you build me a bridge to Hawaii so I can drive over there to visit?"

 

The genie laughed and said, "That's impossible. Think of the logistics of that! How would the supports ever reach the bottom of the Pacific? Think of how much concrete...how much steel!! No, think of another wish."

 

The man said OK and tried to think of a really good wish. Finally, he said, "I've been married and divorced four times. My wives always said that I don't care and that I'm insensitive. So, I wish that I could understand women....know how they feel inside and what they're thinking when they give me the silent treatment....know why they're crying, know what they really want when they say 'nothing'....know how to make them truly happy...."

 

The genie asked, "Do you want that bridge two lanes or four?"

 

[Christopher]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

Exactly' date=' both are plot devices. The 17th level Wizard casts wish (Clerics don't get wish they get something similar, both the Cleric and Wizard spells are max level spells Lvl 9 for the spell meaning lvl 17 minimum to cast. With a ton of expensive materials required.)[/quote']

This is a list of thing the Wish spell can do besid the Tarasque thing (and really, that was only to stress that it is "impossible to keep down"):

 

 

• Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
  
• Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
  
• Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
  
• Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
  
• Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
  
• Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
  
• Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
  
• Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
  
• Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
  
• Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
  
• Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
  
• Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
  

 

 

With exception of Transporting Travellers and maybe Undo Misfortune not one use is any more "Plot device" than:

A Raise Dead spell (cleric 4th grade)

All Arcane Spells of 0th too 8th Level

All Divine Spells of 0th too 5th level

Crafting a Magic Item

A Heal Spell

 

And I never considered a Cleric casting a Heal Spell to being a "Plot device". Any more than I consider any other spell cast, ever attack made a "plot device".

 

A character "Wishing" for a ton of money and nothing happening doesn't need a power. A character wishing for a Billion Dollars and getting it has just spent 15pts on Filthy Rich and the "Wish" was the Plot device that explains how they suddenly got so rich.

That needs specification:

If this is a single payment, this follows the Rules for "transform and wealth" on 6E1 306. The Djinn will propably say he can't make that much (because he isn't built on enough poits).

 

If it means the character having a continous income (what the money aka wealth perk does), then this is adding 15 Points worth of Powers/Perks with a Transform. Maybe also taking away a "lack of money" Complciation.

Both effects are well within the Limits of a Major Transform.

 

This is like the Villain's Mind Control Ray. Yeah you could write it up and waste all of that time doing the power writeup for something that you as GM will either decide "yes this works they way I describe" or "No' date=' it goes awry in some way"[/quote']

I built it. If only to have values for the focus rules, to determine how easy it breaks/is sabotaged.

 

2. The granting of a wish does not necessarily imply handing control of the wish to another person. If a genie grants the wish then it is the genie that casts the wish. That would prevent the need to buy UBO for the whole power' date=' making it cheaper.[/quote']

And it would circumvent the "can't Transfrom yourself" problem.

 

5. Transform is OK for some things but not for others. You can not really transform the city slum into a mini Nirvana with Transform because you are never going to roll enough Body.

Enough Body for what?

What I think the problem is taht you wrongly try to use thsi power by Transforming every building in the "slum" area (not that hard with Megascale. Wichis simply an error in your train of thought.

 

Give me a proper writeup for your Interpretation of "Nirvana" as a base (propably a lot of UOO/USim powers with increased amount of users), and I can build you a Transform that can "create" this base with a Snap.

You not providing a writeup is the only reason I haven't done it already.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

 

...............

Enough Body for what?

What I think the problem is taht you wrongly try to use thsi power by Transforming every building in the "slum" area (not that hard with Megascale. Wichis simply an error in your train of thought.

 

Give me a proper writeup for your Interpretation of "Nirvana" as a base (propably a lot of UOO/USim powers with increased amount of users), and I can build you a Transform that can "create" this base with a Snap.

You not providing a writeup is the only reason I haven't done it already.

 

Yes, well, my train of thought is now being run by another rail company who seem to have made all sorts of promises to the governement that sound shiny, but will probably need a wish spell to actually make work.

 

That aside, how much Body would you need to transform the largest building in the slum? OK, if it is all tents, maybe not much, but if it is a run down formerly well-to-do area, probably quite a lot. AoE, even megascaled AoE, still has to affect individual targets within the area, it is just that it can affect a lot of them. A transform (it is certainly more than just cosmetic, as it affects function not simply appearance and, you know, smell, so I'd suggest it is probably major or even severe, if you want to have plants and animals that were not there before) requires a pretty substantial number of dice to affect. You need 2xBody. A normal external wall has 6 Body and you'll need 4 of them to make a room; even a small room will require a roll of 48 Body to transform, which is a expensive.

 

Even doing it by hex/square metre/whatever if you decide that is how AoE works is problematic for two reasons:

 

1. There is no clear rule I am aware of that indicates what area you can apply AoE afefcts to within the overall area.

2. AoE's can not normally pass through walls or other obstacles.

3. If you DO megascale it, you are also making the base area larger, spreading the effect over a bigger space, reuiring more body.

 

Also Nirvana is not a base, any more than a city slum is a base. I can see why it might be superficially attractive to think of it that way from the point of view of this problem, but even doing so does not really help. Bases have Body for walls, not overall Body figures, so the rules do not actually help with how much transform you need to transform a base.

[Martin2]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

3. If you DO megascale it, you are also making the base area larger, spreading the effect over a bigger space, reuiring more body.

 

 

If you AOE blast does the damage get divided by the area?

 

I should think an AOE transform would be similar.

 

Smaller buildings would be transformed more easily than bigger buildings but that is the advantage if AOE and megascale and if the GM allows it.

[Ice9]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

... even a small room will require a roll of 48 Body to transform' date=' which is a expensive.[/quote']Unless I'm misunderstanding something, Transform is cumulative, with no maximum. So even a 1-pip Transform will eventually hit 48 Body (not even all that eventually - around 5 minutes with SPD 2). If anything, the reason I wouldn't use Transform for Wish is that it's too powerful - for any non-combat use of Transform, the sky is pretty much the limit.

[Christopher]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

Yes, well, my train of thought is now being run by another rail company who seem to have made all sorts of promises to the governement that sound shiny, but will probably need a wish spell to actually make work.

 

That aside, how much Body would you need to transform the largest building in the slum? OK, if it is all tents, maybe not much, but if it is a run down formerly well-to-do area, probably quite a lot. AoE, even megascaled AoE, still has to affect individual targets within the area, it is just that it can affect a lot of them. A transform (it is certainly more than just cosmetic, as it affects function not simply appearance and, you know, smell, so I'd suggest it is probably major or even severe, if you want to have plants and animals that were not there before) requires a pretty substantial number of dice to affect. You need 2xBody. A normal external wall has 6 Body and you'll need 4 of them to make a room; even a small room will require a roll of 48 Body to transform, which is a expensive.

It all depends on how hard you insist on making it.

There are three different schools of thought about how difficulty it is to blow up the planet. The easiest way gives the planet 5 PD, 10 ED and 86 Body. So a 2d6 KA can destroy the whole planet, if just used often enough.

 

The hardest one consdiers it to be made of 1.37 x 10^20 1m³ "Chunks". Each with 5 PD, 10ED and 19 Body. And you have destroy every chunck seperately, overcomming it's PD/ED or affect a lot of them with Megascale at once.

 

You try to use the last approach for you wish and then complain that it can't work on any point budget - because you made it impossible to work on any point budget.

 

 

3. If you DO megascale it' date=' you are also making the base area larger, spreading the effect over a bigger space, reuiring more body.[/quote']

You use the base OR the Megascale AoE Approach. Not both.

 

Also Nirvana is not a base' date=' any more than a city slum is a base. I can see why it might be superficially attractive to think of it that way from the point of view of this problem, but even doing so does not really help. Bases have Body for walls, not overall Body figures, so the rules do not actually help with how much transform you need to transform a base.[/quote']

That only say if you really try to find a reason for it to be impossible, you will succed. That is nothing new.

 

As a base's "ground" and building area can be split in randomly large or small seperate builds/areas, there is no way you cannot write up a city or citiyblock as a base. A base wich has a has certain Character Point Value. And character point values (and what they represent) can be affected by Transform.

 

 

And as Ice9 points out:

A Djinn granting a wish can easily mean a Dozen, Hundred or Hundred-thousands of uses of it's "Transform" Power.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

If you AOE blast does the damage get divided by the area?

 

I should think an AOE transform would be similar.

 

Smaller buildings would be transformed more easily than bigger buildings but that is the advantage if AOE and megascale and if the GM allows it.

 

 

The question is which bits does it apply to? What do you define as a target?

 

FOr example if you are shooting an AoE at a person and you are using hit location rules, you do not do the AoE damage to each location, you do the total to the whole target. No dividing involved. If you shoot a building with an AoE Blast, do you target the building, the individual components of the building, or something else? If you can hit each wall, you are actually doing a lot more damage than you rolled: you are effectivly multiplying the damage.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding something' date=' Transform is cumulative, with no maximum. So even a 1-pip Transform will eventually hit 48 Body (not even all that eventually - around 5 minutes with SPD 2). If anything, the reason I wouldn't use Transform for Wish is that it's [i']too[/i] powerful - for any non-combat use of Transform, the sky is pretty much the limit.

 

 

Trye, but a wish is usually presented as a single effect rather than a cumulative constant effect that works over time. You could build it that way, sure, I just don't see it being done, and 'classic' wishes always seem to be more or less instantaneous.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

It all depends on how hard you insist on making it.

There are three different schools of thought about how difficulty it is to blow up the planet. The easiest way gives the planet 5 PD, 10 ED and 86 Body. So a 2d6 KA can destroy the whole planet, if just used often enough.

 

It is not me insisting on making it hard. I think this is the right approach if you hit the planet with a single attack that does enough damage. The difficulty actually arises because Hero mixes geometric and arithmetic progressions.

 

The hardest one consdiers it to be made of 1.37 x 10^20 1m³ "Chunks". Each with 5 PD, 10ED and 19 Body. And you have destroy every chunck seperately, overcomming it's PD/ED or affect a lot of them with Megascale at once.

 

You try to use the last approach for you wish and then complain that it can't work on any point budget - because you made it impossible to work on any point budget.

 

 

...and yet if you do not use this approach, six missed 5d6 killing attacks can destroy the planet. If you are trying to destroy the planet with penny ante attacks then this is clearly the right approach, given the difficulty that Hero has with consistency on damage dealing. Steve Long in The Book Of The Empress has a Nove Igniter Bomb which does 1000d6 Killing: far too much for the first approach, no idea how it applies to the second. What megascale area does that 3500 Body damage apply to?

 

 

You use the base OR the Megascale AoE Approach. Not both.

 

So if you have megascaled area up to 1m=1km (say), what size chunk of the planet does the damage apply to? Do you, for example, apply the damage to each square metre, or each square km? That will make a lot of difference, and, as far as i know, thre are no rules covering it.

 

 

That only say if you really try to find a reason for it to be impossible, you will succed. That is nothing new.

 

As a base's "ground" and building area can be split in randomly large or small seperate builds/areas, there is no way you cannot write up a city or citiyblock as a base. A base wich has a has certain Character Point Value. And character point values (and what they represent) can be affected by Transform.

 

Well, no, Body totals are affected by Transform. What do you apply the Transform to? Each individual bit, or the whole thing? If a base is built as a single thing then is it not a single target? The trouble is that base building rules only give you rules for the Body of base components, not an overall figure, but I would assume that if you have 2 bases, of equal size, but one has more rooms and walls in it, that would be harder to affect, as you have more to target.

 

Again, this problem is created by Hero not making it clear what happens when you AoE something large. If it is a single target (say a character) it will presumably only take the damage once: Hero is inconsistent on the point.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

A wish is so powerful and potentially campaign changing that it's really beyond the scope of what powers should do. Since it can change reality, I would just use old GM Fiat to implement one.

 

I would never allow a player to have it as an ability they could just use at will.

 

With the system one skill is the ability to know when to write something up using powers and when to just adjudicate it as a campaign effect.

 

I agree. Making a wish can be the SFX of getting a big chunk of XP and (maybe) liberal GM permission when spending it, or an in-game reason to change the campaign or undo past events.

[Christopher]

Re: Usable By Others with a VPP to simulate a wish spell

 

The question is which bits does it apply to? What do you define as a target?

 

FOr example if you are shooting an AoE at a person and you are using hit location rules, you do not do the AoE damage to each location, you do the total to the whole target. No dividing involved. If you shoot a building with an AoE Blast, do you target the building, the individual components of the building, or something else? If you can hit each wall, you are actually doing a lot more damage than you rolled: you are effectivly multiplying the damage.

You mean lika AoE that hits a dozen people is "doing a lot more damage than rolled?

Or the Atom Bomb, Aoe Radius, Megascaled (1m=10km) is doing "a lot more damage than rolled", to every person, wall, window, sqaure meter of street, streetsing, car, truck, trainwagon, airplane, chair, table, etc., etc., etc. ..., ... in it area?

 

Yes, yes it does. And in most cases they don't even get the bonus for being "behind the barrier", as the effect can hit you from any angle at full strenght.

And wall's aren't really a problem either, as thiere are weak points (the windows) that are easily broken to fill the area behidn them.

 

And I don't think that is a problem at all. It sounds indeed very much like what I would expect.

 

Trye' date=' but a wish is usually presented as a single effect rather than a cumulative constant effect that works over time. You could build it that way, sure, I just don't see it being done, and 'classic' wishes always seem to be more or less instantaneous.[/quote']

Usually?

Could you name examples, that you did not invent?

Or is that just "in my interpretation/understand"?

 

Also, if this approach is not getting you usefull results, why do you insist on not using the ones that do give you the results?

 

...and yet if you do not use this approach' date=' six missed 5d6 killing attacks can destroy the planet. If you are trying to destroy the planet with penny ante attacks then this is clearly the right approach, given the difficulty that Hero has with consistency on damage dealing. Steve Long in The Book Of The Empress has a Nove Igniter Bomb which does 1000d6 Killing: far too much for the first approach, no idea how it applies to the second. What megascale area does that 3500 Body damage apply to?[/quote']

That sounds more like a "Make Sun to supernova" weapon. Wich propably has to do enough damage to affect all Starships as well.

 

So if you have megascaled area up to 1m=1km (say)' date=' what size chunk of the planet does the damage apply to? Do you, for example, apply the damage to each square metre, or each square km? That will make a lot of difference, and, as far as i know, thre are no rules covering it.[/quote']

First, roll the damage. If the damage is not enough to destroy one chunk, the attack chars the surface a little - Yes, 1 pip KA won't destroy the planet. It will destroy every window (1-2 PD/ED, non Resistant) in the first strike and kill every human if maintained.

If it does enough to destroy chuncks, it takes out about the entire area it would affect. Give or take a few meters. But how many attack can deal 24 Body average (29 if it goes agaisnt PD) with a big enough Megascale in Superheroic games?

(hint: that would be 7d6 Killing attack).

 

Well' date=' no, Body totals are affected by Transform. What do you apply the Transform to? Each individual bit, or the whole thing? If a base is built as a single thing then is it not a single target? The trouble is that base building rules only give you rules for the Body of base components, not an overall figure, but I would assume that if you have 2 bases, of equal size, but one has more rooms and walls in it, that would be harder to affect, as you have more to target.[/quote']

What body total is affected when you Transform Money from nothing or Lead to Gold? Look at 6E1 306

Just say it can create 1 Character Point worth of "Nirvana Base" for every body rolled, and call it a day.

 

Again' date=' this problem is created by Hero not making it clear what happens when you AoE something large. If it is a single target (say a character) it will presumably only take the damage once: Hero is inconsistent on the point.[/quote']

It is?

A character takes the damage once. Just so we don't go mad because of the comabt resolution with big characters. And because nobody cares what the effect is if I only transform your little toe into rock.

A barrier is only a problem if it can block the attack on the whole widht of the attack. If not it will simply take the damage once at it's full lenght and protect nothing behind it.

If it does block the "whole front" or some very special explosion rules are in effect*, it takes the dmage once and provides it's usual defense against anyone behind it.

 

 

*it might make a difference if the explosion has to go "over" the 4m barrier or can go through it without much resistance.