Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Blau, if you're so fixated on how Superman should properly be constructed with the Hero System, perhaps you'd like to start a new thread to inform us us exactly how it should be done. That way we can still have our discussion about the relative merits of the DC and Marvel universes without having do discuss how someone's sketch of Superman isn't the real superman.

 

Would someone help put this discussion back on topic? I'm lost.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

That's "Superman" who isn't the same as Superman, because Superman doesn't cut corners with his powers, he just has them, there's no multipower juggling, just incredibly powerful alien.

 

That's your opinion. The source material doesn't necessarily support it.

[Midas]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

*sigh*

OK, everybody. Pull out your ID cards. Check the DOB. If it is more than twelve years ago...

 

Let me put it another way: Whip out your wands of God Detection. See if you get a hit for either Loki (Marvel) or Strife (DC).

 

Because a lot of posts on this thread can be summed up by:

"That's Stupid!"

"No, YOU'RE Stupid!"

"I know you are, but what am I?"

 

Now that said, do you think Loki and Strife are the same build?

 

I don't because to me Loki *does* strife, while Strife *is* strife. And Loki is a lot more subtle about it.

[massey]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

The post I referenced was about disadvantages.

 

Sacrifices must be made when you cram characters.

 

Edit: If you really want me to cram a Superman into 250... you aren't going to like what I have to do to the system. You can't go back from that place.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Sacrifices must be made when you cram characters.

 

Edit: If you really want me to cram a Superman into 250... you aren't going to like what I have to do to the system. You can't go back from that place.

 

Again, I was only referring to your previous statement about disadvantages.

[massey]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Again' date=' I was only referring to your previous statement about disadvantages.[/quote']

 

To what end? What point are you trying to make? That a 250 Superman will suck? Then we agree.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

It's only a +1/4 if you just want friendly. +1 is slavishly devoted' date=' which I don't think describes their relationship. This isn't D&D, 1 charge isn't reloaded every day, it's reloaded based on appropriate scene. Besides, it's not that hard to disregard the VPP to make the summon work.[/quote']

 

Amicable ranges from +1/4 for Friendly to +1 for Slavishly Devoted. I never suggested Supes should have more than Friendly. I suppose one could argue a higher level, as Loyal seems appropriate to one's best friend (being willing, perhaps, to provide aid that seems inappropriate on Jimmy's word that it really is needed and for a good cause). Devoted is a much greater stretch, and he's not slavish. Friendly does the trick, IMO, although I would note it means Jimmy gets only three tasks, with your 12 EGO writeup - no more than three phases of combat - before Supes departs (and he only has one charge, so he can't refresh those tasks).

 

Summon Specific Being is a +1 advantage.

 

A Summon power with this Advantage can Summon a specific individual' date=' whether that individual is defined generically (the King of Valdoria) or by name (King Arkon of Valdoria).[/quote']

 

In case it needs clarification, "Superman" is a specific individual. This was the same rule in 5e.

 

A character can only use a power with this Limitation a limited number of times per day. Examples include a gun that only has ten bullets or a magic spell a wizard can only cast once per night. The character decides how many times per day (or per adventure) he can use the power' date=' and finds the resulting Limitation on the Charges Table.[/quote']

 

Again, a rule that has not changed from 5e. There is certainly some flexibility in how the charges are recovered (going home to get new bullets, for example). Perhaps you would care to share with us how you envision Jimmy's Summon recharging. Note that it can't be as simple as "Superman leaves" - that's the standard for a Summon. You can only have the maximum number of creatures you can summon in play at any one time, so a standard Summon with unlimited uses would require Supers to leave before it could be used again. Dropping that -2 limitation and buying 0 END would change the cost of that watch pretty dramatically.

 

What, conceptually, restricts the number of times Jimmy can use the signal watch?

 

Recoverable charges might be usable, although I question how they are recovered in this case. As well,

 

Generally a character shouldn’t be allowed to use Recoverable Charges to simulate Charges that return to him on a quicker than once-per-day basis [NOTE - there's that once per day use of charges again!' date=' but the GM can allow this if he thinks it’s appropriate.[/quote']

 

That said, there seem to be limitations in the source material which are not reflected in your writeup. Sometimes, the watch fails in the comics (Supes is somewhere where he cannot hear the signal, such as deep space, or cannot respond, such as saving villagers from a volcano). As well, Supes has to get there under his own power, so he sometimes responds, but not immediately, in the comics. He rarely seems stunned in the phase of his arrival (mandatory for Summon), often interposing himself between Jimmy and a lethal attack on the phase of his arrival.

 

In game, this is pretty easy to deal with. Jimmy's CV is pretty sad for even a 250 point "Super", so targeting the watch (or just firing off an AoE to include the watch) will eliminate the poblem, since the watch has only 1 PD/ED (being fragile). Powers with limitations at that level tend to be pretty unreliable, and a 600 AP power on a 250 point Super was cheesy to begin with.

 

Finally, note that Supes doesn't have any relation with Jimmy outside that Summon - Jimmy lacks any Contact or similar perk. Seems odd for Superman's Best Friend, but que sera.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

To what end? What point are you trying to make? That a 250 Superman will suck? Then we agree.

 

Stop attempting to put words in my mouth. I have made no comment about your version's abilities. I only question why you didn't do what you said you would do in regards to Disadvantages in your earlier quoted post which I will add again for clarity.

 

... If I were to write up a Superman' date=' I'd give him a big susceptibility to kryptonite (both Stun and a Drain to powers), and a disad where he is Stunned when first exposed. He'd also have a vulnerability to kryptonite-based attacks. Anytime you see him suffering more than his susceptibility would account for, the villain bought it as a power.[/quote']

 

Too simple a question again eh?

[massey]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Because its a 250 point writeup. I would also give Superman Instant Change, a bunch of contacts, and much higher stats. But my task here was to make one who couldn't be killed by Lex Luthor throwing a toaster in the bathtub.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Because its a 250 point writeup.

 

What does that have to do with what disadvantages are used?

[massey]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

What does that have to do with what disadvantages are used?

 

The kryptonite effects are instead simulated with limitations. It's there in the writeup.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Ok, people, mod hat on: Play nice or I will turn this thread around right now.

 

And by "people" I mean "everyone." We've had some complaints about the tone here. Please don't make us lock it down.

[RexMundi]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

While I plan on using this guy as part of my Posta-Palooza thread, I thought he worked out as a good example of a Marvel kind of Build as far as character design goes. He's a standard starting Super Hero in 6e Rules, going by the schtick that I and others (and the rules in the book) use where you can push past a few campaign soft caps here and there if it's that PC's particular niche (Something you also see more of in Marvel rather then DC).....

 

Probably have about 12 versions of this guy in about as many Super Hero systems, heh. Feel free to take a look.

 

[ATTACH]44462[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]44463[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]44464[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]44465[/ATTACH]

 

~Rex

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

To what end? What point are you trying to make? That a 250 Superman will suck? Then we agree.

 

A 250-point superman sucks only when a 250-point character would suck anyway. When all the characters are 250 points or less, the only complaint I've been hearing is "But that isn't Superman". My argument is as follows: "So?"

 

To elaborate, if Superman exists in the campaign as a 250-point character where all the NPCs are 1000 points and a few of the PCs have many more points than Superman then yes, a 250-point superman is inappropriate and underpowered. In a campaign where villains are rarely more than 300 points and the players are all about 250 points, I don't see why a 250-point Superman should be less satisfying to play than another 250-point generic brick with Identical powers called "Bob". The objection is not the power set at all but the fact that a character built on 250 points is being called Superman. If it were sacrilege to call anything built on fewer than X points Superman, I would agree, but since your objections seem not to hinge upon "Is this character suitable to the game he is intended to be played in?" but "Is the game too low-powered to call an appropriately-constructed Superman?" I do not.

 

If Superman exists in a campaign, it has nothing to do with how Hero system works and everything to do with your mental construct of Superman. The Superman in your head is different from the superman anyone else in the world has in their head. They've read different comics, perhaps consulted authoritative writings on the subject, discussed the subject with others, etc., and therefore the information they use to construct a mental image of Superman will differ, often in key respects from that which you used to construct your own mental image of him. Saying "But it's still not superman" is akin to telling an artist that the landscape he just painted is not the landscape he was using as a reference. It is both technically true (a picture of a thing is not a thing) and patently false. He created that picture as a representation of a thing. If you are not convinced, you do not have to agree, but why should the artist's intent be completely discounted on the word of a single critic?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

The kryptonite effects are instead simulated with limitations. It's there in the writeup.

 

Thank you.

 

BTW, I like your take on using Danger Sense as an alternative to the more traditional approach commonly used for his senses. I don't see why this version couldn't work in a 250 point campaign.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

While I plan on using this guy as part of my Posta-Palooza thread, I thought he worked out as a good example of a Marvel kind of Build as far as character design goes. He's a standard starting Super Hero in 6e Rules, going by the schtick that I and others (and the rules in the book) use where you can push past a few campaign soft caps here and there if it's that PC's particular niche (Something you also see more of in Marvel rather then DC).....

 

Probably have about 12 versions of this guy in about as many Super Hero systems, heh. Feel free to take a look.

 

[ATTACH]44462[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]44463[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]44464[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]44465[/ATTACH]

 

~Rex

 

I Like!

 

Do you really see him as more of a Marvel-esq character? Seems awfully close to my version of DCU's ElastiGirl from the Doom Patrol.

[RexMundi]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

I Like!

 

Do you really see him as more of a Marvel-esq character? Seems awfully close to my version of DCU's ElastiGirl from the Doom Patrol.

 

The Doom Patrol is very "Marvel-esque". It's one of the things I hear about it from a lot of the DC writer types that are interested in tackling the Doom Patrol as well ..probably a reason why the Doom Patrol is one of my favorite DC properties also, you can relate to them more as the people as opposed to just the "hero" aspect. Nice Elastigirl build there but you left out the Shrinking and the Olympic Gold Medalist Swimming stuff and the regen stuff from later but otherwise solid. I got to figure out how to do that secondary characteristic adder thing you did there as well with the growth. Sharp move.

 

When I think of a Marvel style build I like to keep that Marvel tagline (paraphrased) The World Outside your window. Big E is that kind of PC you run into here and there where the player will build the Super Hero off themselves (Common especially to us old V+V players, heh), and Big E is mine so to speak. Layers of stuff there. Some Skills, some Alpha Strike stuff, and a nice Cruising Level as well.... He's got Growth, but it's not at the Elasti Girl or Colossal Boy Level, it's more at the mid era Giant Man/Goliath level. That Elasti Girl build would Pulverize him most likely (Other then they both have growth, not really that similar she way outclasses him heh) though he may get a punch in before she boots him half way across the Atlantic.

 

Most of the time Big E is running around as a low end brink minus much in the way of defenses (There's been a few of those here and there in comics ). He's got to play it smart. Sure he can throw a car, (Barely, well OK a Mini Cooper) at his "cruise" level, and he's got the endurance to burn, but unless he's grown, you can drop him with a few bullets. Kicking on the growth he picks up some resilience to the little stuff, and some bigger stuff, but a Tank will kill him. Gotta stick and move as we say in the Boxing Ring, use those skills, set up for the big boot and so on. Hence, a Marvel Build, and one sculpted not to be faster then the fast guy, or more CV then the Combat Guy, etc etc etc. I've got a DC style build PC coming up in a bit as well. Smoothing out a few things on the sheet.

 

~Rex

[massey]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

A 250-point superman sucks only when a 250-point character would suck anyway. When all the characters are 250 points or less, the only complaint I've been hearing is "But that isn't Superman". My argument is as follows: "So?"

 

To elaborate, if Superman exists in the campaign as a 250-point character where all the NPCs are 1000 points and a few of the PCs have many more points than Superman then yes, a 250-point superman is inappropriate and underpowered. In a campaign where villains are rarely more than 300 points and the players are all about 250 points, I don't see why a 250-point Superman should be less satisfying to play than another 250-point generic brick with Identical powers called "Bob". The objection is not the power set at all but the fact that a character built on 250 points is being called Superman. If it were sacrilege to call anything built on fewer than X points Superman, I would agree, but since your objections seem not to hinge upon "Is this character suitable to the game he is intended to be played in?" but "Is the game too low-powered to call an appropriately-constructed Superman?" I do not.

 

If Superman exists in a campaign, it has nothing to do with how Hero system works and everything to do with your mental construct of Superman. The Superman in your head is different from the superman anyone else in the world has in their head. They've read different comics, perhaps consulted authoritative writings on the subject, discussed the subject with others, etc., and therefore the information they use to construct a mental image of Superman will differ, often in key respects from that which you used to construct your own mental image of him. Saying "But it's still not superman" is akin to telling an artist that the landscape he just painted is not the landscape he was using as a reference. It is both technically true (a picture of a thing is not a thing) and patently false. He created that picture as a representation of a thing. If you are not convinced, you do not have to agree, but why should the artist's intent be completely discounted on the word of a single critic?

 

A 250 point Superman has too many powers to be competitive unless you layer on limitations, as I did. He's got heat vision, strength, flight, enhanced senses, superbreath, invulnerability, and a lot of other abilities. Captain Brick only has strength and invulnerability. Therefore Captain Brick can spend more points on strength and invulnerability than can Superman. Superman has enough powers so that if you model all of them, he will do all of them poorly.

 

Imagine Batman. Now imagine guy who is just like Batman except he's not rich. If they are built on the same point total, then the second guy will have 15 more points to spend on whatever he wants, points Batman spent on wealth. If he takes 3 levels in DCV, or 5/5 Armor, or 5 extra Dex, then he's going to beat Batman almost every time. And that's just Batman's wealth. Forget about the Fortress of Bat-itude and the vehicles. With 250, lean and mean is the way to go.

 

Here you go:

Josef McVodka grew up in the poor sections of Campaign City, a child of Russian immigrants forced to pay protection money to the mob. He grew up and became a cop, but one day he came home to find his dad dead of a gunshot wound. He confronted the mobsters and was thrown into a barrel of toxic waste. He emerged as Captain Brick. He left his job as a cop and now he fights crime.

 

Str 70

Dex 17

Con 33

Body 15

Int 10

Ego 10

Pre 25

Com 8

PD 35

ED 35

Spd 4

Rec 21

End 66

Stun 67

 

20/20 DR

+6" Jumping (20" total)

 

+2 w/ punch

Deduction 11-

Criminology 11-

Lang: Russian (basic)

 

Done. 250 points. He will stomp the tar out of a lot of characters. I built him in about 30 seconds. Spent another 30 on the background. And the problem with Superman on starting point limits is that he will never ever be as efficient as a guy like this. Cassandra's Supes can't even hurt Captain Brick with his heat vision even if she rolls max.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

A 250-point superman sucks only when a 250-point character would suck anyway. When all the characters are 250 points or less' date=' the only complaint I've been hearing is "But that isn't Superman". My argument is as follows: "So?"[/quote']

 

Whatever Superman is the Superman being played in a particular game is Superman. A equals A. Whether it's 250 points, 100 points, 400 points or 15000 points. If I make a character named Superman and put him in my campaign, then he's Superman.

 

And the first rule of Tautology Club is the first rule of Tautology Club.

[Greywind]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

I'd posit that the only definitive Superman was Simon and Shuster's. Everything else that came after they stopped doing the character was simply someone else's (re-)interpretation of the character.

[Cassandra]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Kryptonite was invested on the radio show because he was too powerful.

 

Batman once had to save him.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

I've started a thread, The One True Son of Krypton, for continuing the "what is superman" discussion.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Kryptonite was invested on the radio show because he was too powerful.

 

Batman once had to save him.

 

Also, Bud Collyer needed time off from work once in a while, so it was easy to have Superman kayoed by kryptonite the day the actor goes on vacation, and somebody else would do all the moaning for him (all Superman's lines). During these absences, the show would focus on the other characters. When Collyer got back, Superman (or someone) would cleverly dispose of the kryptonite and Superman would then (I suppose) kick the badguy's butt.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

A 250 point Superman has too many powers to be competitive unless you layer on limitations, as I did. He's got heat vision, strength, flight, enhanced senses, superbreath, invulnerability, and a lot of other abilities. Captain Brick only has strength and invulnerability. Therefore Captain Brick can spend more points on strength and invulnerability than can Superman. Superman has enough powers so that if you model all of them, he will do all of them poorly.

 

Imagine Batman. Now imagine guy who is just like Batman except he's not rich. If they are built on the same point total, then the second guy will have 15 more points to spend on whatever he wants, points Batman spent on wealth. If he takes 3 levels in DCV, or 5/5 Armor, or 5 extra Dex, then he's going to beat Batman almost every time. And that's just Batman's wealth. Forget about the Fortress of Bat-itude and the vehicles. With 250, lean and mean is the way to go.

 

Here you go:

Josef McVodka grew up in the poor sections of Campaign City, a child of Russian immigrants forced to pay protection money to the mob. He grew up and became a cop, but one day he came home to find his dad dead of a gunshot wound. He confronted the mobsters and was thrown into a barrel of toxic waste. He emerged as Captain Brick. He left his job as a cop and now he fights crime.

 

Str 70

Dex 17

Con 33

Body 15

Int 10

Ego 10

Pre 25

Com 8

PD 35

ED 35

Spd 4

Rec 21

End 66

Stun 67

 

20/20 DR

+6" Jumping (20" total)

 

+2 w/ punch

Deduction 11-

Criminology 11-

Lang: Russian (basic)

 

Done. 250 points. He will stomp the tar out of a lot of characters. I built him in about 30 seconds. Spent another 30 on the background. And the problem with Superman on starting point limits is that he will never ever be as efficient as a guy like this. Cassandra's Supes can't even hurt Captain Brick with his heat vision even if she rolls max.

 

 

He'd also fumble around like an idiot a lot in situations her Superman would do fine. Your point is incredible campaign specific if its a point at all. In my gameIi'd hand him back and council a little more depth and versitilty and skills. I guess you're trying to make a point about power gaming over character conception construction or something but it fails with me. As a Gm he's way way easier to get around than her Superman.

[massey]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

He'd also fumble around like an idiot a lot in situations her Superman would do fine. Your point is incredible campaign specific if its a point at all. In my gameIi'd hand him back and council a little more depth and versitilty and skills. I guess you're trying to make a point about power gaming over character conception construction or something but it fails with me. As a Gm he's way way easier to get around than her Superman.

 

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. I'm a skill monster in comparison to her Superman. Her Superman has AK: Metropolis and PS: Reporter, both on 11-. That's it. Look at her writeup on page 3. My guy can actually fight crime, and speaks a different language. I've spent more points on skills than she did.

 

That's the point, you see. I can drop his defenses to 30/30. I'm still tougher than her Superman. I can lower his Con to 28. I'm still tougher. I can drop his Str to 60 and I'm still stronger. All those points can go into making him a badass detective, and I'm still going to smash him in a fight. Superman has too many things that drain his points.