San Angelo - Your input

[RPMiller]

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone that contributed their input, and to let you know that development is proceeding. I'll probably be popping in for more input on certain items as time goes by so as always feel free to give your input and/or ask questions.

 

Thanks again!

[SuperPheemy]

Originally posted by Agent X

Stat inflation?

 

That wonder phenomenon that occurs mainly in published Champs material (though every game has been subject to it in one form or another). It manifests like this.

 

The Protectors of Equality publish a book of Supervillains for their point based superhero game. In said book, the villain Mastermind is listed with an INT of 35 and is noted to be the "smartest man on the planet".

 

Later, the PoE publishes another supplement, and introduces the Throbbing Brain, a superintelligent character with an INT of 40.

 

Thus, players who wished their characters to be on par with Mastermind back when the first supplement hit the shelves, start aligning their super-scientists INT score with the new high-end of 40. 35 becomes not a measure of "smartest genius on the planet" but a better than average mastermind character.

 

This was a real problem back in 3rd and 4th edition where characters like the Rainbow Archer boasted Dex scores in the mid-30s, outclassing most speedsters or high-end martial artists.

 

Looking at 5th edition supplements, it seems as if consistancy is being made a higher priority. Thus Grond, long a measure of high-end strength in the CU, continues to be so even in the face of upcoming supplements.

 

Considering how important consistancy and history are to the SA crew, I doubt Stat Inflation will be much of a problem.

[Kristopher]

If you want a serious case of stat and power bloat, take a look at Viperia in the 4thEd Viper sourcebook. I'm not sure if it's 999 point total that bothers me, the fact that she has Indirect on her STR for no particular reason, or that there's nothing in her description text to explain the nature of her powers or how it would justify most of what's on her character sheet.

[Enforcer84]

Viperia's Indirect was her ability to punch through walls and other such obsticals, I believe.

[Monolith]

Is the new San Angelo book no longer including HERO System material?

 

I went to the website to see the new cover design and saw that there was no Hero logo on the cover, only M&M and Action. And then I read this description:

San Angelo: City of Heroes 1.5 is a city sourcebook that details the fictional city of San Angelo, for both M&M Superlink and Action! System.

Once again there is no mention of the HERO System. I would think that if the book is going to be Hero usable that the logo and game system should be mentioned in the description of the product.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Monolith

Is the new San Angelo book no longer including HERO System material?

 

I went to the website to see the new cover design and saw that there was no Hero logo on the cover, only M&M and Action. And then I read this description:

 

Once again there is no mention of the HERO System. I would think that if the book is going to be Hero usable that the logo and game system should be mentioned in the description of the product.

 

V 1.5 not V 2.

 

from GRG website

San Angelo 1.5

Remember last update when I mentioned another M&M Superlink project we were working on? Well, we got the green light from Green Ronin so now we can announce it. San Angelo: City of Heroes 1.5!

 

Because of the tremendous response we've had to our announcement that we're including M&M Superlink stats in The Dragon's Gate, we're preparing a new version of our Origins Award-nominated San Angelo: City of Heroes book.

 

San Angelo: City of Heroes 1.5, will be initially released as a premium PDF product, with stats for both M&M Superlink and Action! System. We'll also be posting a free preview PDF for fans in the near future, so you can check it out before you decide to buy it.

 

SA:CoH 1.5 will introduce the City of Heroes to a whole new batch of superhero gaming fans! And with SACoH 2nd Edition in development, now's the time for more people to hear about San Angelo!

 

(Note: SA:CoH 1.5 does not contain updated material from the original printed book, nor does it contain HERO System stats. If you own the original book, you'll need to wait for SACoH 2E for the updated setting.)

 

Apparently, this is the original book, with the Hero stuff pulled, and M&M and Action stuff jammed in.

 

What that implies to me is that the original book will be sort of necessary to using the new book, since they're going through a lot of effort to bring 1.5 to press.

 

D

[Monolith]

Originally posted by misterdeath

Apparently, this is the original book, with the Hero stuff pulled, and M&M and Action stuff jammed in.

Ok. That makes sense then. I was not sure why they were calling the new book 1.5, but in today's obscure numbering system anything is possible. Thanks for the information. I was just concerned that something had changed in the last couple of weeks when I saw that cover.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Monolith

Ok. That makes sense then. I was not sure why they were calling the new book 1.5, but in today's obscure numbering system anything is possible. Thanks for the information. I was just concerned that something had changed in the last couple of weeks when I saw that cover.

 

No problem. I was a little freaked out myself, so I did some looking around.

__

Apparently from the d&d 3.0 to 3.5 conversion, naming something .5 means "change just enough to mess you up, but not enough to fix things."

 

For Hero Players, SA 1.5 seems to fit... "Hey, where's all the Hero Stuff, I've already got this flavor text."

__

 

Anxiously awaiting version 2.0

 

D

[RPMiller]

Of course, you could always ask the developer.

 

Yes, SA 1.5 is so that the M&M, and Action! crowd can use the older material and see what everyone liked so much.

 

As for your assumption that the original book will be required, I think that would be really lame and unfair to all of you that don't own it.

 

Also, the 1.5 isn't really to freak anyone out so much as to... well you'll figure it out.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by RPMiller

Of course, you could always ask the developer.

 

Yes, SA 1.5 is so that the M&M, and Action! crowd can use the older material and see what everyone liked so much.

 

As for your assumption that the original book will be required, I think that would be really lame and unfair to all of you that don't own it.

 

Also, the 1.5 isn't really to freak anyone out so much as to... well you'll figure it out.

 

I think Mon did. I just have a higher Dex than you do.

 

Thanks for the confirmation, my man.

 

D

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Wow, I can’t believe that it took me so long to find this topic!

 

2. For those of you that own, but don't play in the world, why?

 

Well that would be because I haven’t managed to find a good roleplaying group in something like a decade.

 

However were I playing a superhero game a SA based Hero game would be one of my top two choices. Aberrant would be up there too. Both of these do something for me that many other settings don’t … they make an honest attempt to integrate heroes into the ‘real world’ and don’t try to pigeonhole the superbeings into the black & white world that I saw in the comics of my youth.

 

1) I've noticed that the vast majority really likes the city and its detail as a whole, but the NPCs in the back of the book leave them dry. True?

2) The NPCs throughout the book are great, but folks would like to see them developed even more. Yes?

3) Folks want to see more Heroes that are intertwined with the city, but still in the background. Correct?

4) Everyone wants the city to be advanced several years. On track?

 

1) Yes. On the one hand I liked them *much* better than the 4th ed Champions … but on the other I felt like they were a little generic.

 

2) Yes but not in the main text of the book. I agree with Storn that layout and artwork could do a lot here. I don’t want tons of NPC stuff right in the middle of the book text the way it is now. Break out the NPCs better. Have the main text in one column and have the NPC stats, info, etc. in a graphically different one on the other. That way I can keep reading or be able to quickly get the NPC info I want. The other alternatives are to put the NPC stuff all in one section or in sidebars. These are workable too.

 

3) Yes.

 

4) Yes.

 

I also agree with comments that the writing needs to be tightened up. Detail is SA’s blessing and its curse. The detail is interesting, useful, and ultimately one of the things that really set SA apart from other supplements … however that detail makes for a *lot* of reading and a lot of effort on the part of the consumer.

 

On stat inflation … one of the things I loved the most about SA when I first read it was that the stats seemed so much more reasonable than those of other published Hero products. SA even felt a bit “low powered†but everything was balanced. I loved that aspect of the game. As the supplements were published it seemed like ‘power creep’ was occurring. Stats got higher & powers got more ‘ump.’

 

I used to be on the SA boards and I’ve heard some of talk about how the developers didn’t really intend for SA to be “low powered†… that we just hadn’t gotten to see all the material. Honestly at the time I was disappointed. Today though I seem to be dealing with it better. My suggestion is to be more consistent.

 

If you are going to have variable power levels make that clear from the first book then be consistent throughout. 350 points is a great power level for many of the ‘sample’ NPCs in the first book, especially quickstart campaigns, but show more examples of power spread that we will be seeing in future supplements.

 

I also think that you guys did yourself a disservice by using different writers for the core setting book and the enemies book. I felt like I was reading about two different worlds after finishing one and then the other.

 

On another note I suggest taking a page out of Aberrant’s playbook. Do more stuff about having superbeings changes the world. It’s not logically consistent to have super-intelligent heroes and not have the SA tech curve be a little ahead of the real world and in the hands of joe average on the street. It doesn’t make sense that super-presence types will not have affected politics and legal proceedings. It doesn’t make sense that most people with superpowers will have drifted into crime and crime fighting. Give examples of superbeings with real jobs and no desire to get into ‘power brawls.’ Talk briefly about what the Army, FBI, UN, etc. are doing in response to super powers and superbeings.

 

The main focus can still be on hero teams but I like having a logical world for them to operate in.

 

Well that’s enough for now. I’m glad to see that SA will be back bigger and better than ever. Good luck!

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by misterdeath

What that implies to me is that the original book will be sort of necessary to using the new book, since they're going through a lot of effort to bring 1.5 to press.

Fear not. No other books will be required reading for folks who buy San Angelo 2nd Edition. SACoH 2E will be complete and usable all by its lonesome.

 

Of course, SACoH 1.5 will almost certainly contain little bits and references that people familiar with the original edition of SACoH will pick up on that newcomers to San Angelo won't (such as reference to the "previous Mayor," Mayor Martinez.).

 

No marketing ploys here with SACoH 1.5 except a desire to bring San Angelo to the attention of a lot more superhero RPG fans.

[misterdeath]

Big thumbs up from me. Thanks!

 

D

[bcholmes]

Re: San Angelo - Your input

 

Originally posted by RPMiller

With all the new hype and interest in the San Angelo line, I wanted to pick your brains and get some feedback. A while ago I ran a poll asking who had heard of San Angelo and who was using it.

What I would like to know is:

[*]For those of you that own, but don't play in the world, why?

[/list=1]

 

Well, I'll respond, but I don't think there's much you'll be able to do with my feedback.

 

I bought San Angelo a few months after it first came out. I pestered my game store about ordering it 'cause they didn't order it on their own.

 

I really enjoyed the book. I thought that the material set a new benchmark for campaign settings. The information gave a very real seeming flavour to the city.

 

The book also really appealed to the part of me that loves rich campaign history.

 

I think I would have preferred slightly more "game" material for the city (more character write-ups, more maps, etc.)

 

In the end, there were really two things that prevented me from running a campaign in that setting:

 

1. I prefer real cities over fictional cities. There's something about the blending of fact and fiction that appeals to me.

 

2. I tend to set my campaigns in my own country (Canada). There's a very definite American feel to San Angelo that would need to be changed a lot to move San Angelo to Canada (and where would you put it?)

[Kristopher]

And how would it get a name like "San Angelo" in Canada?

[Gold Rush Games]

Re: Re: San Angelo - Your input

 

Originally posted by bcholmes

I prefer real cities over fictional cities. There's something about the blending of fact and fiction that appeals to me.

You've just described San Angelo, the City of Heroes. A blend of fact and fiction.

 

I tend to set my campaigns in my own country (Canada). There's a very definite American feel to San Angelo that would need to be changed a lot to move San Angelo to Canada (and where would you put it?)

Excellent point.

 

FWIW, I'd love to publish some (slightly less detailed) city sourcebooks for major cities in other countries. Toronto, London, Bohn, Sidney, Tokyo and others (Baghdad?) would make great additions to the SACoH line, IMO.

 

So, do we have any authors for these books lurking out there? Preferably someone who lives in or near the city in question...

[Kristopher]

Re: San Angelo - Your input

 

Originally posted by Gold Rush Games

You've just described San Angelo, the City of Heroes. A blend of fact and fiction.

 

Excellent point.

 

FWIW, I'd love to publish some (slightly less detailed) city sourcebooks for major cities in other countries. Toronto, London, Bohn, Sidney, Tokyo and others (Baghdad?) would make great additions to the SACoH line, IMO.

 

So, do we have any authors for these books lurking out there? Preferably someone who lives in or near the city in question...

 

Unfortunately, I live near Detroit...

 

Unless anyone is interested in Battle Creek, City of Cereal

 

or Kalamazoo, City of Celery

 

or Grand Rapids, City of an Excessive Number of Churches

 

or Traverse City, City of Traverse

[Gold Rush Games]

Re: Re: San Angelo - Your input

 

Originally posted by Kristopher

Unless anyone is interested in...or Kalamazoo, City of Celery

If you write a 20,000 word sourcebook for that, I'll pay you for it and publish it!

[drrushing]

San Angelo

 

RPMiller-

What I would like to know is:

1. For those of you who use it, why?

2. For those of you that own, but don't play in the world, why?

3. For those of you that looked at, but decided it wasn't for you, why?

4. For those of you that haven't seen it, are you going to look into it now, and why?

5. For those of you that have no interest in looking at it or using it, why?

 

Answers:

1. No, I don't use it

2. I've seen the original preview, I liked it, but I'm not from Texas, so roleplaying on a daily basis in a Southern state would be difficult.

3. Same as 2.

4. Any new Champions supplement is a great source of information for new and experienced gamers to enrich their campaign.

5. Well, I wouldn't use it everyday, but as a supplement for information and variety, it would be very helpful.

 

Oh, one final note, I haven't seen the new version of the San Angelo book, but one complaint of the Hero System NPC's and Villians in general..........The rules, regardless of edition 1,2,3,4 or 5, discourage the use of MP's and EC's, but it seems like almost every new NPC hero or villian created has at least one, if not both of these in their various write ups. I'm sorry, but I find the dicotomy a little annoying.

[Gold Rush Games]

Re: San Angelo

 

Originally posted by drrushing

I've seen the original preview, I liked it, but I'm not from Texas, so roleplaying on a daily basis in a Southern state would be difficult.

If you still have the SACoH preview pdf I invite you to read the boxed text on page 11 (the 11th pageof the preview), titled "The Real San Angelo." It explains that the San Angelo of the book is not the same thing as the city in Texas.

 

I can understand how someone might think that they are the same at a cursory look but rest assured, San Angelo: The City of Heroes is not located in Texas. It's ostensibly located on the West Coast. Just FYI.

[RPMiller]

Re: San Angelo

 

Originally posted by drrushing

Oh, one final note, I haven't seen the new version of the San Angelo book, but one complaint of the Hero System NPC's and Villians in general..........The rules, regardless of edition 1,2,3,4 or 5, discourage the use of MP's and EC's, but it seems like almost every new NPC hero or villian created has at least one, if not both of these in their various write ups. I'm sorry, but I find the dicotomy a little annoying.

Just out of curiousity, where do you find the rules discouraging use of the Power Frameworks? I looked through those sections, and didn't see anything in the realm of discouraging their use.

 

I would also like to encourage you to look at the Enemies of San Angelo book. You will see a much more thorough example of characters that have been created. In fact, you can even purchase it here for $8.00!

[Vanguard00]

I very much liked San Angelo. Like many who have already chimed in, I grabbed it because Kurt Busiek endorsed it, and I'm a huge fan of Astro City. I wasn't disappointed in the least, either. The feel of the setting was as comfortable as the mechanics of it. Everything just seemed to flow. I even blatantly copied the format for one of my own games a few years back and again, everything just seemed to flow.

 

I've used San Angelo as a setting in two face-to-face campaigns and had a great deal of fun each time. The detail provided let us run it like a modern comic--lots of emphasis on story and characterization. There was so much detail that everyone had available to them that we sometimes forgot about combat. I know, I know...it sounds crazy, but it's true!

 

Lastly, I'll be using San Angelo again in a PBEM-style game early next year. Being from Sacramento, I've decided to replace that city with San Angelo and make it the state capital. It practically drops right in anyway, and there is so much familiarity for me that it's almost like the book was modeled on my home town.

 

I don't use many of the established heroes or villains, mainly because I so thoroughly enjoy the 'classic' enemies, but since my players generally aren't familiar with them either, they do tend to pop up once in a while. I own the other books, as well, and even if I'm not using the exact entries, the ideas and plot points still come in very handy.

 

You can mark me down as a satisfied customer.

[RPMiller]

WONDERFUL!!!!

 

I would be interested in your PBEM when you start it up by the way. I would like to see how others use SA in an actual game.

 

What part of Sacto are you in?

 

I appreciate your modifications. I like seeing folks think outside the box, and especially when they see the box for what it really is.

[Vanguard00]

Sacramental, baby!

 

Originally posted by RPMiller

WONDERFUL!!!!

 

I would be interested in your PBEM when you start it up by the way. I would like to see how others use SA in an actual game.

 

Well, I should say it's tentative, depending on work and such, but I'd like to start it by February. I'll likely have something on Irony Games when it goes down.

 

What part of Sacto are you in?

 

Born and bred in this town, actually, but currently living close to CSUS, working in Folsom, and the band plays in Elk Grove. So I'm pretty much all over it on any given week.

 

I appreciate your modifications. I like seeing folks think outside the box, and especially when they see the box for what it really is.

 

I think I agonized over the "where to place it" decision for about fifteen to twenty minutes, as I idly flipped through the book to refamiliarize myself with it. I don't remember what it was that tipped me off (it might have been references to river front and the delta and so on) but something jumped out at me and said "This is ALL Sacramento, boy", and I started flipping around for specific reference points and everything just fell into place.

 

The map is pretty close, too, if a bit canted from Sac. The docks were the only thing that threw me for a bit, but I can make them work. The rest lines up fairly well and allows me to keep "better known" areas like San Francisco and Los Angeles intact. I'm even considering an Ah-nold-esque governor

 

Overall, it was a pretty easy decision to make. Sacramento is obviously familiar to me, San Angelo is a great superhero setting, and I get the home field advantage without having to sacrifice a single bit of "genre realism" for my players. It's a win-win situation.