San Angelo - Your input

[Vondy]

Originally posted by RPMiller

Again, very interesting. Out of curiousity how much do folks know about SF's history? Where do folks think gold was discovered, and what city grew because of it? Given the rest of SA's history, what do folks think is similar to SF and LA? This is very fascinating!

 

Well, back to the subject at hand... keep those comments about coming that relate to my initial questions. Thanks!

 

In my case it wasn't the gold rush, per se. The presence of a China town in the historical timeline given reduces the possibilities significantly.

 

1. The name of the city puts it in a geographic region that was once controlled by Spain or Mexico (California, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas). It sure as heck doesn't fit for the northeastern seaboard (British), the southeastern seaboard (French) or the Midwest and Great Plains (northern european types).

 

2. The only place in the former Spanish and Mexican colonies that has a substantial Asian population (a major chinatown, or Dragon's Gate, for instance) is California - namely LA and SF.

 

3. The history for the city, and its Chinatown, goes back to the old west. The only major Asian populations in the US at that time were in the Western Coastal region, Chicago and New York. The setting doesn't have any real elements that give it a new york or chicago feel, and futher, the "old west" elements of the history rule those out as well. New York and Chicago don't fall into traditional "old west" properly speaking.

 

4. The Northwest did have a Gold Rush, and is the place where many of the Indian Wars took place (so its old west and many of our modern laws reflect that), but Seattle's International District, which was originally a Chinatown, wasn't founded until 1900 or so. Portland follows a similar timeframe. Further, in the Northwest we don't have "Sans" or "Angelos." We have Native American and Anglicized names.

 

5. Texas, while having urban cities, some of which are quite large, doesn't have cities that have the neopolitan feel and ethnic patchwork of San Angelo. Texas has its own "tex-mex" culture that is distinct, and doesn't fit San Angelo. The Spaniard-Native American feel of New Mexico and Arizona doesn't fit either.

 

6. All of this brings us back to California, which did have a gold rush in its mountains (Klondike!), which had an influence on the growth of its major cities. In addition, the Californian coastal cities, especially SF, have the correct neopolitan feel and ethnic patchwork that are reflective of San Angelo. What's more - the size of the Dragon's Gate (Chinatown) in San Angelo can only be compared to a three real "chinatowns": SF, Chi-Town, NYC.

 

7. Lastly, the Dragon's Gate looks exactly like the Chinatown Entrance in San Francisco! If you don't want people to assume its a SF/LA amalgam you shot yourself in the foot right there!

 

One could change the name of the city and the history and put it somewhere else with very little trouble, but as it is, the city gives the immediate impression of being somewhere on the California coast. With its big Chinatown, and elements of its history that imply old west (lets face it, one of the DG characters is definately a Kung Fu Kwai Chaing Kane rip-off, which I liked incidentally) and gold rush elements there are few other places it could be if one wants to maintain a sense of versimiltude.

 

Speaking of which, it might be neat if you included a page on "adaptation tips - how to put San Angelo anywhere!" With a different name and some minor historical changes San Angelo could easily be adapted to feel right in other regions. It could become an amalgam of a major midwestern city like Chicago, a major city in Quebec (Montreal and Toronto have places that could equate to the Dragon's Gate), a northwestern city (Seattle and Vancouver BC come to mind), or a major northeastern city (but probably not a NYC clone).

 

In truth SA is "fake comic book city" and doesn't really have to be anywhere in specific, but when people hear the name and glance at the history they will draw immediate parallels to the real world, and Coastal California is what will come to most minds (I think). All of my players drew that conclusion within 2 minutes of looking at the books. Two of them even said: "oh, its San Francisco!"

[lemming]

Originally posted by RPMiller

Again, very interesting. Out of curiousity how much do folks know about SF's history?

Grew up in Marin and did quite a bit research on that...

 

The name San Angelo does sound like it's supposed to be a mix of SF & LA. Though I think there's more Sacramento in terms of city type. Inland port city as it were.

 

If I actually placed San Angelo, I would probably put it in place of Vallejo, Stockton, or Concord.

 

D-Man puts in some good points on the naming, etc... and I like his idea of "tips on placement".

 

With the name, it does say Coastal California. However, it could of been named by someone who came from the Coast and moved. It could be similar to the founding of Portland, Oregon. The two people wanted to name the city as their east coast favorites, Portland or Boston. Portland won the coin flip.

Perhaps the people responsible for the San Angelo name came from LA & SF and instead of choosing one or the other, combined?

 

Hmm, I'm going to have to read my copy again. I'm sure some of this is mentioned.

[Lord Liaden]

You know, it's a funny thing that I've been thinking about since you first solicited input: I bought SA and have adapted elements of it. I have tremendous admiration for the loving attention to detail that went into it, the wide range of possible uses for the setting, and the uniquely fascinating perspective on a supers world from the ordinary people living alongside them. Despite all that, I wasn't engaged by San Angelo and felt no great desire to start a campaign there.

 

I think now that part of what turned me off is that it's a little too perfect. The detail is so rich, the elements so well balanced that it's almost like a work of art - meant to be looked at, but not touched. It has the feel of a set piece; there are many little elements to the setting that can be explored, like the doings of the city's various denizens, stopping the plots of supervillains and the like. What I find missing is the "Big Stuff under the surface" that creates a sense of movement and direction in a setting. Things like major plots that are slowly progressing toward fruition, secrets whose revelation will change the lives of the inhabitants, or looming menaces just waiting for the opportunity to strike. Other details of the city setting should have the option of being tied into the Big Stuff so that the players can have a trail to unravel, leading to a climactic confrontation.

 

The first edition of SA already has elements that could easily be elaborated into the framework for major developments, like Ren Westlake's plot to "save the world" through military action and the technology of the future, or the theft of what might have been the Spear of Destiny from a San Angelo museum back in 1950.

 

This shouldn't be overdone, though, unless you wanted to turn San Angelo into Conspiracy Central. Two or three such elements would be quite sufficient. IMHO, of course, like all of the preceding.

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by Storn

Not only am I user of San Angelo, I bought the company... no, not really, but I did work on it!!!

And did a wonderful job, btw.

 

The only thing I don't care about, because it is too specific is the San Francisco analog... just too close to San Fran for my tastes.

Wrong city, but I get your point.

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by Sketchpad

I looked at the DG preview and it looks neat ...

Just FYI, there is also a PDF preview of San Angelo: City of Heroes that is still available on our web site. You can download it here.

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by D-Man

Lastly, the Dragon's Gate looks exactly like the Chinatown Entrance in San Francisco! If you don't want people to assume its a SF/LA amalgam you shot yourself in the foot right there!

San Angelo has homages to several different cities. The Dragon's Gate is an homage to San Francisco's Chinatown, true, but there are other "gates" in the U.S. Don't get too hung up on one detail like that. Think broader...

 

Speaking of which, it might be neat if you included a page on "adaptation tips - how to put San Angelo anywhere!"

An excellent suggestion. Robert, take note!

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by winterhawk

I think...the sample characters should be more archetypical of comics characters.

Another great suggestion.

 

When we designed SA:CoH we rather intentionally went for the Champions archetypes in the team. Would you prefer to see "comic book archetypes" in SA:CoH2E? One of the drawbacks to doing this is that the NPC heroes in the book could overshadow the PCs, which we prefer to avoid...

 

How do the rest of you feel about this?

[Storn]

HIya Mark!

 

I suggest a INCOMPLETE team. Yeah, I know, it's nuts... but bear with me a moment.

 

Like I said, i love the room that you made for players within San Angelo, I suggest you do the same with the San Angelo team... Do 3 of them. But it is traditionally a team of six. Leave three slots open. Some plot seeds could exist on why those three slots are open... be nice if it at least ONE slot opening was mundane, like superdude got a job in another city and moved. Instead of the usual, "they fell in battle against the evil RAMPAGER!"

 

The three who are there, should be fairly experienced guys, do them at 400 pts or something... nice benchmark. But no leader personality, let that be a PC or a GM NPC if it is going to be an entirely NPC team.

 

Then I suggest doing 4 or 5 possible "candidates"... all of them young, new heroes... and be 300 or 350 pts. Completely plug n play... a GM doesn't have to use them, of course. This serves two purposes... 1) A GM who wants to have a total NPC team can plug in his favorites. 2) They give an indication of the baseline, beginning power level.

 

Just a thought.

[Gold Rush Games]

I like the way you're thinking, Storn. I like it a lot...

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Storn

HIya Mark!

 

I suggest a INCOMPLETE team. Yeah, I know, it's nuts... but bear with me a moment.

 

Like I said, i love the room that you made for players within San Angelo, I suggest you do the same with the San Angelo team... Do 3 of them. But it is traditionally a team of six. Leave three slots open. Some plot seeds could exist on why those three slots are open... be nice if it at least ONE slot opening was mundane, like superdude got a job in another city and moved. Instead of the usual, "they fell in battle against the evil RAMPAGER!"

 

The three who are there, should be fairly experienced guys, do them at 400 pts or something... nice benchmark. But no leader personality, let that be a PC or a GM NPC if it is going to be an entirely NPC team.

 

Then I suggest doing 4 or 5 possible "candidates"... all of them young, new heroes... and be 300 or 350 pts. Completely plug n play... a GM doesn't have to use them, of course. This serves two purposes... 1) A GM who wants to have a total NPC team can plug in his favorites. 2) They give an indication of the baseline, beginning power level.

 

Just a thought.

 

Make them 350 on the nose, then they could also serve as Player Characacters for quick start type games...

[SuperPheemy]

That's why Storn makes the big bucks.

 

I'd suggest two possible campaign strategies. First, fill out an established SA superteam. These are the guys and gals who are supposed to inspire new superheroes to take up the mantle of herodom. They are the Good Guys that everyone in the city knows about. They mayor has a hotline to their bedroom, that sort of thing.

 

THEN, you can present a group of player heroes in a couple of ways. First, make them "auxillary" members of the main supergroup, with the possibility of eventually becoming full-fledged members as the founding members retire, die, move on... This would work really well for groups of players who want to earn the spotlight, get keys to the city, and rub shoulders with legends, until they become legends themselves.

 

OR, the player heroes can be one of the less well-known superteams in the city. While the AMAZING BRIGADE is off saving SA from the EVIL MASTER VILLAIN, the PCs get to handle the turf wars that erupt in their wake. Works really well for an "underappreciated heroes" campaign.

 

The big pro to having an established supergroup is the probability of support from either perspective. The PCs can start adventures with a call for help from the established group. Likewise, if the PCs are stumped, or feel a little out of their league, they can ask for some help. The supergroup can also provide fodder for rivalries, or obsessions.

 

Adventures, of course should be written with PCs in mind. But even with an established supergroup, three or four options presented at the beginning explaining why the NPCs aren't solving the problem should be sufficient to justify the characters' involvement.

[Ghost who Walks]

Since the topic has moved to characters, I'll offer my free opinion...

 

San Angelo seems to me, less 4-color, or dirty-realistic. Rather, it seemd to be a book where people had this thing called "a job". Everyone in the book had a role to play, an occupation, even if it was "superhero". Even the Homeless Brick had a job...he was homeless.

 

Basicly what I am saying is, the supllament seemed to me to suggest characters who were like ordinary people, who just may happen to have superpowers. This means any sample or archtype hereos are going to need to fit into the city, in order to work.

 

There are a ton of storylines buried under the surface, most of them accessed though the NPCs. Perhaps they should be looked at, to see which ones have developed to fruition? If time has passed between SA: CoH #1 and SA:CoH #2, then some of these plot lines are going to have advanced.

 

So far as newly powered people, one idea might be to take some of the NPC's from the original book and give them origins...

[Agent X]

I suggest you add a richly detailed superteam and their rogue's gallery to this book. That doesn't mean the superteam has to overshadow the players. Why? Write them out of the present time. They disappeared. That is what I am doing in my newest game. Leave the legacy of these heroes, monuments, places they worked in their secret IDs, perhaps their old base. Most importantly, leave their rogue's gallery. Suddenly there is a ready-made reason for the player characters to band together to deal with the otherwise unanswered threat these villains pose. Also, there is history a super history. Make the villains come alive.

 

I do want to tell you I am toying with this idea in writing my own supplement although I seriously doubt I'll ever do it. So, if some guy named Doug Mc... ends up writing something for superhero roleplaying games please don't try to sue me if you run with this.

[RPMiller]

Originally posted by Ghost who Walks

There are a ton of storylines buried under the surface, most of them accessed though the NPCs. Perhaps they should be looked at, to see which ones have developed to fruition? If time has passed between SA: CoH #1 and SA:CoH #2, then some of these plot lines are going to have advanced.

 

So far as newly powered people, one idea might be to take some of the NPC's from the original book and give them origins...

That is exactly what I am doing in several cases. As I mentioned before I am aging the city several years, and believe me a lot can happen in even a short time. I think you will be most pleasantly surprised as new faces appear and some old ones go away, and still others continue to "work".

[RPMiller]

Originally posted by Agent X

I do want to tell you I am toying with this idea in writing my own supplement although I seriously doubt I'll ever do it. So, if some guy named Doug Mc... ends up writing something for superhero roleplaying games please don't try to sue me if you run with this.

Ah yes, the slippery slope of intellectual property.

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by SuperPheemy

First, fill out an established SA superteam. These are the guys and gals who are supposed to inspire new superheroes to take up the mantle of herodom. They are the Good Guys that everyone in the city knows about. They mayor has a hotline to their bedroom, that sort of thing.

I appreciate your comments. This won't work for SA:CoH, however, and I'll tell you why. One of the design principles we had going in to SA:CoH was that the PCs are the premier supers in the setting. No one -- not even the Justice Foundation -- are assumed to overshadow or outshine the PCs. Ever.

 

Likewise, if the PCs are stumped, or feel a little out of their league, they can ask for some help.

But the players can do this regardless of whether their PCs are "top dogs" or not. I don't see the need to mandate PCs as second string heroes in the setting.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Gold Rush Games

I appreciate your comments. This won't work for SA:CoH, however, and I'll tell you why. One of the design principles we had going in to SA:CoH was that the PCs are the premier supers in the setting. No one -- not even the Justice Foundation -- are assumed to overshadow or outshine the PCs. Ever.

 

And that is another of the things in the book that I just adored - that this was a basic principles of the world/city.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Re: Re: San Angelo - Your input

 

Originally posted by RPMiller

So then would you say that you are a proponent of the multiple system stats that we are considering putting in all the books?

 

Yeah, I am. I think it expands the possible customer base, and that is good for SA. More sales, more money, more supplements. I work at a game shop, and we have 2 HERO groups that get their stuff there, a MnM group and an SAS group. I can push Dragon's Gate to more people. I just wish that SAS stats could have been included too. *sigh*

 

Also each game system has tendancies, so if a writer who comes from a MnM background writes a supplement, the character design would be somewhat different than the same ideas for HERO; even when you have the HERO stats of the selfsame character. And even if it doesn't make it into the published stuff, it would appear in fan material.

 

As a point - I use characters adapted/converted from V&V, Gurps Supers, SAS, MnM, Abberant and Heroes unlimted in my campaigns, so obviuosly, multiple system stats are something I like (I'd love to see the MnM/HERO conversion framework you use for my own conversions). And yes I am really looking forward to Reality Storm for those reasons.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Mhoram

And that is another of the things in the book that I just adored - that this was a basic principles of the world/city.

The only problem is that it makes it difficult to create a rich background of superherodom. That is my big concern.

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by Agent X

The only problem is that it makes it difficult to create a rich background of superherodom.

Define "a rich background of superherodom."

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Agent X

The only problem is that it makes it difficult to create a rich background of superherodom. That is my big concern.

 

Really? I found it just the opposite. I always have to write out the "primary team" to make room for the PCs in other books, but here I didn't, so more of my background creation time was able to be spent making my backgrounds richer.

[RPMiller]

Re: Re: Re: Re: San Angelo - Your input

 

Originally posted by Lord Mhoram

I can push Dragon's Gate to more people. I just wish that SAS stats could have been included too. *sigh*

We appreciate that very much!

We'll see what we can do about SAS stats in future products. The thing that we have to be concerned with though is *too* many. I know that seems strange, but consider the amount of extra printing and materials that has to go into it and that in turn increases the cost. Perhaps just some conversion notes would be better?

[RPMiller]

Originally posted by Lord Mhoram

Really? I found it just the opposite. I always have to write out the "primary team" to make room for the PCs in other books, but here I didn't, so more of my background creation time was able to be spent making my backgrounds richer.

Ah yes! You understand young grasshopper.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by RPMiller

Ah yes! You understand young grasshopper.

And I don't?

 

I understand that anything can be written out if necessary. If it's not written in that's that much more work for me.

 

The advantage to a published campaign book that references heroes colorfully and demonstrates how they put their stamp on their environment is that it is available to all the players. I can write myself rough notes but it is a real pain to actually type out the detail in a reader-friendly fashion for the players. By providing the game with icons and supporting characters, the campaign book provides the players a point of reference and a method of plugging in their character if they see fit to do so (more than half our player group buys campaign settings they are playing in whether they intend to run the setting or not). There is also a greater sense of continuity and depth to the history of the campaign.

 

I'm not talking about a timeline. I'm talking about the headquarters the heroes used, their DNPCs, contacts, and ROGUE'S GALLERY. I'm also talking about sites of their past adventures and interesting places around the city that they are connected with. This all builds together to provide a rich background for the players and the GM to exploit.

 

The "trick" I would use to allow the players the top spot is to use the conceit of the disappearance of the iconic team in the city. Suddenly, there is a mystery. Where did those heroes go? Suddenly, a real need is demonstrated to the players as the villains once checked by the heroes are able to run amok, possibly organizing into a loose confederation to exploit the area's vulnerability. Consider how many Champions games are set in published comics universes with the premise that they are the New Generation of Heroes.

 

None of this prevents the heroes from being able to plug their backstory into the campaign world or prevents the GM from doing his/her thing. What it does do is provide everyone with a frame of reference and possibly inpsiration as well as providing a crutch for building backstory for those players who struggle with that aspect of the game. There are plenty of players who do have this problem and would be happy to have a ready-made explanation for why their character is in the city.

 

If you want to sell to me you have to go beyond a nuts and bolts emphasis and make my imagination spark with imagined comic book stories that flash in my head as a result of reading your book. Freedom City did that for me but didn't provide me the richness of the little things that San Angelo obviously has. Millenium City didn't do that for me at all. Frankly, I don't think this would put much more pressure on the page length of the book.

 

As it is, if I had to choose between a plethora of details or an inspiring campaign that made me feel like I"m walking through a comic book I would choose the latter.

 

One of my criticisms of Hero publications and to the 1st San Angelo campaign book is that they feel too much like they are conscious of the "game" and not going for story potential.

[Gold Rush Games]

Originally posted by Agent X

And I don't?

Don't take the comment personally. I don't believe that's what Rob was trying to convey.

 

One of my criticisms of...the 1st San Angelo campaign book is that [it seels] too much like [it is] conscious of the "game" and not going for story potential.

Really? Now that's something I can honestly say I've not heard before.

 

Can you be a little more specific or better yet, provide some examples?