What if there are no super-prisons?

[Steve]

This is a general question that came up based on last night's session of my Icon's campaign. The PC's managed to put down a really heavy-hitting type that took the whole team to defeat. Up until now, most bad guys had been other Icons (in my campaign, this means they got their powers from their costumes). Now they had someone to deal with that the government just would not be able to hold in prison. Further complicating matters was that the bad guy in question was an actual alien, who had come to Earth after hearing that humanity now had superhumans.

 

Supernal, the campaign's Superman homage, has Icontech in his base that will allow him to imprison individuals in "mirror cells" that are pocket dimensions where the occupant never gets hungry or thirsty. After some discussion by the PCs, the bad guy was imprisoned in one.

 

How should I have the US Government react? The bad guy was clearly dangerous and destructive, destroying city hall and killing a few dozen innocents before he was put down. If he was put into a government facility, he would surely kill guards and be out within minutes. Regular human technology is not up to holding him since superhumans have only been around a year at this point in the campaign.

[esampson]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

Well, the first question is what does the US Government know? Does it know that this person was put in a mirror cell? Does it know who constructed the mirror cells? In a similar vein, what does the public know? The Government's response will be somewhat modified by public knowledge.

[psyber624]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

Also how the government "reacts" will go a long way to setting the tone of your world, or if that is already established their reaction should reflect that.

 

Realistically speaking most governments are going to be highly concerned about the rise of superhumans, and this alien in particular, and are likely to already be taking measures to improve their technology and tactics to respond to this or other threats. After all, the main purpose of government is, supposedly, to protect its citizens (not always the case of course, but most other government concepts will be even MORE interested in increasing their power, not less). Its difficult for a government to protect citizens against threats that are innately stronger than itself and therefore they would actively seek to bridge that gap.

 

This creates plenty of gaming opportunities, and allows to the PC's to decide what their role is going to be in society. If the government insists on having the alien turned over, do the PC's agree? Do they set themselves up as being outside of the law? what are the repercussions of this?

 

If they do follow the rules, will the villain escape? Do they turn over the Mirrorverse technology to the government? Will the government make good use of it if they do?

 

Of course most of these questions are setups for different tones of games. You can define the tone, to an extent, by how you make the government act, but the PC's of course have the ability to radically affect the tone in how they choose to react to the governments decisions.

[matrix3]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

I'd say the government would be very interested in these mirror cells, want some of their own, and want to have this alien transferred into these mirror cells that they control. Unless Supernal was a U.S. law enforcement officer, in which case they would still probably want a human guard on those cells 24/7.

[Lucius]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

Is the alien known to be extraterrestrial?

 

Was it using tools or weapons of non-Human manufacture, and if so, what became of those artifacts?

 

Is there reason to think others of its kind will soon follow?

 

It's quite possible the authorities will be willing to let the matter stand for now, without committing to endorsing it. The alien is not a citizen of any nation on the planet, and is arguably not even a "person" in a legal sense; nonetheless there will probably be SOMEone who wants to bring charges of false imprisonment or kidnapping. An important question is, what do you want to happen? If you don't want Supernal to have to defend the decision in court, you can say the judges just throw out such cases on the grounds an extraterrestrial has no standing to bring charges or sue, nor does any third party have standing to do so on the alien's behalf.

 

In any case, all governments will be trying to get as much icontech as they can, and alien tech too if possible. How did this being get here anyway? Whatever the actual answer, expect an intensive search for some kind of spacecraft.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is intrigued by mirrors

[RexMundi]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

It's the Government. Of course they would not be happy with a SuperHero taking measures like this. Such things should only be determined by the proper representatives in the name of fairness etc etc etc...... Hand over those Mirror Cells Supernal.

 

~Rex

[kahuna's bro]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

would the mirro cell be ruled unconstitutanal on grounds that it is an unlawful exlie into another dimension wher U.S. courts have no juristiction?

[dmjalund]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

♪♫..imagine all the people, living for today..♪♫

[Steve]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

A little more background information.

 

The alien in question was Valak the World Ravager from CV3. He flew in from outer space, not trying to hide his origins from space at all, landed in the center of the PC's city and called them out by destroying City Hall, killing a few dozen people in the building (it was evening, so not fully occupied).

 

The team shows up, and after much struggle and PC bleeding, manage to win the day. Previous to this, the most powerful being the team fought was Icon Earth's version of Grond, who has a somewhat different origin but no change to powers. They turned him over to the government, but one of the PCs visits him regularly to make sure he's staying calm. It was because of this good relationship the PC has with Grond that prompted the bright idea to get Grond and unleash him on Valak, "borrowing" him from the government with some quick teleporting. The PC got Grond's cooperation by telling him Valak was going to kill cute kittens and puppies. After his helping them, they bought him a barrel of chocolate pudding as a reward.

 

Since Valak is intelligent, he'd escape in a few heartbeats should they do what they did with Grond, so that was why the Mirror Prisons were used. The government is very aware of Valak, and they are now aware of Supernal's jail. As his base is at the bottom of the Marianas Trench, they can't go in and confiscate the tech.

 

Currently, the PCs have a friendly relationship with the US government. They have saved the day from serious threats, so they have a good reputation.

 

I'm left to wonder if someone from the ACLU or the like might petition the courts to have them demand Valak be released into government custody. The PC's have essentially done a rendition of a VERY DANGEROUS being with the tacit approval of the government agents that arrived on scene after Valak was unconscious because they realized no regular cell could hold him.

[esampson]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

Ok. Given those situations what I would see is this:

 

The Government is not going to be happy with Supernal running his own prison. That's just a fact of life. Maybe they can't come in and seize the mirror cells and maybe they view the heroes as too important to alienate but they will never be happy with the idea of someone running their own prison. It's just a fact.

 

That said their very first step would probably be to ask nicely for the mirror cell technology. They would probably use logical arguments pointing out the legal problems that the character is creating for themselves, the legal problems that the character is creating for the government, the fact that there needs to be people monitoring and the character can't do it all the time, etc.. If that fails the government might offer some kind of carrot. What that might be I have no clue. Depends upon the characters. Given what you've stated I doubt very much the government will ever move to the stick. Probably the closest would be someone very carefully pointing out that the character's refusal will negatively affect their relationship with the government. It may still be a good relationship, but it won't be as good as it was.

 

The character is almost certainly going to have difficulty with organizations like the ACLU. In addition to the fact that the characters are not authorized to be running a prison Valak has not been tried (or most likely even charged or arraigned). The past decade we have detained certain individuals under the title of 'enemy combatants' but part of that is predicated upon the concept that we are at war with a group of soldiers of a non-conventional sort. You can't really argue that you are at war with a single individual, so how do the characters plan to allow Valak to be properly charged, arraigned, and stand trial?

[Andrew_A]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

Ok. Given those situations what I would see is this:

 

The Government is not going to be happy with Supernal running his own prison. That's just a fact of life. Maybe they can't come in and seize the mirror cells and maybe they view the heroes as too important to alienate but they will never be happy with the idea of someone running their own prison. It's just a fact.

 

That said their very first step would probably be to ask nicely for the mirror cell technology. They would probably use logical arguments pointing out the legal problems that the character is creating for themselves, the legal problems that the character is creating for the government, the fact that there needs to be people monitoring and the character can't do it all the time, etc.. If that fails the government might offer some kind of carrot. What that might be I have no clue. Depends upon the characters. Given what you've stated I doubt very much the government will ever move to the stick. Probably the closest would be someone very carefully pointing out that the character's refusal will negatively affect their relationship with the government. It may still be a good relationship, but it won't be as good as it was.

 

The character is almost certainly going to have difficulty with organizations like the ACLU. In addition to the fact that the characters are not authorized to be running a prison Valak has not been tried (or most likely even charged or arraigned). The past decade we have detained certain individuals under the title of 'enemy combatants' but part of that is predicated upon the concept that we are at war with a group of soldiers of a non-conventional sort. You can't really argue that you are at war with a single individual, so how do the characters plan to allow Valak to be properly charged, arraigned, and stand trial?

 

[Emphasis mine] What he said. I'd also add that no government can afford to look weak or incapable of protecting its citizens. That way lies the potential for chaos and the possibility that foreign enemies might try to take advantage of any perceived weakness. In all probability they might give the heroes a temporary pass in this case, but the thing to remember is that it's temporary. Sooner or later the government is going to have to deal with powered criminals. That means sinking some serious money (in the billions) on ways to contain powered threats.

 

Also, despite what Batman comics might have taught us, the death penalty is going be mentioned. If someone can't be contained in a jail cell, can't be brought to trial (without escaping), isn't a citizen of the country or the planet, and is a major threat to the economic and physical well-being of the citizenry, then they're going to have to kill him/her/it.

 

As for an ACLU like organization: This is going to be very controversial. No group is monolithic and this is going to split any organization down the middle. Some will say that civil liberties and the Geneva Convention don't apply to people who can destroy buildings and kill in the hundreds or thousands. Others will say that principles should be absolute and that we need to be better than the bad guys. Imagine 9/11 or Pearl Harbor, every day. People will become very polarized and very militant.

 

If that's too dark and realistic for you, the government could make some clever scientific breakthrough. Suddenly, super prisons are possible and their construction gets fast tracked. The only problem is, how do you get the supercriminals into jail without powered help? The PCs could end up being deputized ala 50s DC comics. Once the fight's over, their job could be to detain, make safe, and transport dangerous super felons. Maybe their relationship with the government could become closer, with "perks-a-plenty." Not to mention mundane things like insurance (life, health, liability), free legal representation, and a stipend of some sort.

 

This scenario isn't remotely realistic, but it is "comic logical."

[Orion]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

There are no Strongholds on my campaign yet, and when they do arrive in a year or two they will never be as good as really needed. Part of the campaign premise is the heroes deciding what they need to do with the "evil" they capture in such a situation. Given the nature of the campaign, killing them in combat is acceptable, but PRIMUS will try to take custody whenever possible. It's likely PRIMUS will be harsher than anything the group comes up with, as they are somewhat in league with the IHA and Genocide.

 

In your situation, I'd say the government quickly deputizes the characters, so that the prisoners are legally under their control. As long as the PCs stay in the good graces of the government, this fiction will be maintained by all. Behind the scenes the government will be doing all it can to gain control of the prison, or at least copies of the technology. If they ever gain the technology, they will then demand the transfer of all prisoners. If I were running it, I'd use this as a prison break scenario, as the government's new prison wasn't as good as they thought. I'd also serious consider having various world governments claim control of the secret base, regardless of their being able to get to it, and wanting the prisoners for their own nefarious purposes. Sooner or later, some government would manage to gain control of the base, probably through the use of hired Icons, and then the PC would be out of luck.

[Doc Quantum]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

Ditto to all the above. I can't see any government being willing to allow a private prison with no government supervision or control, even for someone like Valak. For the U.S. at least, I don't think it would pass Constitutional muster. If the mirror cell tech was given or even just licensed to the feds and they ran it, then I don't see them having a problem with such a facility.

[Lucius]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

Ditto to all the above. I can't see any government being willing to allow a private prison with no government supervision or control' date=' even for someone like Valak. For the U.S. at least, I don't think it would pass Constitutional muster. If the mirror cell tech was given or even just licensed to the feds and they ran it, then I don't see them having a problem with such a facility.[/quote']

 

That question hinges on whether Valak is, legally, a "person."

 

Even if the Supreme Court comes to that conclusion eventually, someone will have to bring a case, it will spend years wrangling its way through lower courts, etc.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

They have never ruled on the status of palindromedaries

[McCoy]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

Ditto to all the above. I can't see any government being willing to allow a private prison with no government supervision or control' date=' [/quote']

Therefore they, the government, licenses the facility as a private prison, sends someone by every three months to inspect.

[esampson]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

Therefore they' date=' the government, licenses the facility as a private prison, sends someone by every three months to inspect.[/quote']That would require the characters to allow access to their secret base in the Marianas Trench to government inspectors. It would also require them to follow all federal guidelines regarding prisons, which is not inconsiderable.

[McCoy]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

That would require the characters to allow access to their secret base in the Marianas Trench to government inspectors. It would also require them to follow all federal guidelines regarding prisons' date=' which is not inconsiderable.[/quote']

Alternatives are to be legally guilty of kidnapping and false imprisonment, or declare the base a sovereign country. How big are the PC's on obeying the law?

[esampson]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

Alternatives are to be legally guilty of kidnapping and false imprisonment' date=' or declare the base a sovereign country. How big are the PC's on obeying the law?[/quote']

Or to do what the Government asked and turn over the criminal and the technology necessary to keep him imprisoned (or alternately turn the criminal over but without the technology, knowing how much damage he will do).

[sinanju]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

Or to do what the Government asked and turn over the criminal and the technology necessary to keep him imprisoned (or alternately turn the criminal over but without the technology' date=' knowing how much damage he will do).[/quote']

 

Or declare Supernal's base a sovereign nation. People have tried to declare various tiny islands and offshore oil drilling platforms (abandoned by their original owners and reclaimed, as a rule, by would-be sovereigns) sovereign nations. It never works. One of (not the, but ONE of) the test for being a sovereign nation is whether you can defend your territory from aggressive neighbors. And most such attempts at creating micro-states get overthrown by the nearest rival government...or bunch of guys with a boat and some AK-47s. If Supernal is a Superman homage, and his base is virtually unreachable AND it isn't in any other nation's claimed territory...he's got a good case for claiming sovereign status and making it stick.

 

Sovereign becomes the ruler of a sovereign nation, with every right to try, convict, imprison (or execute) criminals in his nation. On the other hand, as the crime in question happened on US soil, he may have trouble justifying his actions in imprisoning the guy for crimes he committed elsewhere. But on the gripping hand, the US claims authority to criminalize (and punish) behaviors in other countries, so I suppose Supernal could do the same.

 

He may also have difficulty with the US (and other) governments about entering their territories without authorization. As the de facto military arm of his micro-state, entry into another nation without permission could be viewed as an act of war.

 

Any way you slice it, it's going to be a legal mess.

[psyber624]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

which is a really good case to kill all lawyers....

 

(Or at least keep them out of comic books/HERO games)

[Andrew_A]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

which is a really good case to kill all lawyers....

 

(Or at least keep them out of comic books/HERO games)

 

We have to keep Steve Long around, at the very least.

[Lucius]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

Alternatives are to be legally guilty of kidnapping and false imprisonment' date=' or declare the base a sovereign country. How big are the PC's on obeying the law?[/quote']

 

Not necessarily. He's not legally guilty until convicted, can't be convicted until tried, and can't be tried until charged, and who's going to charge him?

 

Once charged, the question rises of whether a non-Human is legally a 'person' and can be the victim of a crime in the legal sense.

 

One would hope the eventual answer would be "yes" but I suspect in this case almost all parties concerned would want to put off that conclusion as long as possible.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I'm in no hurry to let a palindromedary vote. Even once.

[esampson]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

The problem in this case is probably going to be less the government actively pressing a legal case (although they eventually will) and more a problem of public outcry. Even as destructive as Valak was you will get groups like the ACLU with quite valid concerns that if Valak is not accorded the same rights as a human being then the government will be legally allowed to grab any visiting extra terrestrial off the street and dissect them.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

my understanding is that extraterrestrials have no legal rights they are considered legal non-entities

[The Reaper]

Re: What if there are no super-prisons?

 

What jurisdiction does the U.S. Government have over the bottom of the Marianas Trench?

 

In the DC Universe, I think the governments of the world would rather have Superman take care of super-powered villains. They trust Superman. He has access to superior technology. And he has the responsibility if the detainees escape or need recaptured.

 

In a Champions game, I would ask: Does the government really want these defeated supervillains inside the U.S.? When they don't even want to move non-powered terrorists from Guantanamo to the states? Do they trust Supernal the way DC earth trusts Superman?