Is Speed underpriced?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

Part of the issue here, something shared with most characteristics, is that what they represent is abstracted and, often, an amalgamation of multiple traits. I tend to think of Speed as 'reaction time', even though that also falls under DEX as a DCV computation. It's difficult to concretely state that a character is 'Speed X' (particularly when modelling comics, where a character's capabilities vary significantly based on story needs).

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

Hello!

 

Once again I am planning out a Hero campaign for Superheroes, and I need advice/opinions on Speed.

 

It always seems dirt cheap to me, and I hate how every player tends to buy 'more Speed than the character would likely have'

 

I prefer the general flavor of 'normal person has a 2 speed, athletes have a 3, olympic class is a 4, 5+ are Superhuman.'

 

Speed always irritates me.

 

Thanks!

 

I love speed. It really makes combat have the cinematic, comic book feel to me. That being said, I use the same scale you talk about. Have for over 20 years.

[Balabanto]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

Here's the breakdown for my world.

 

Basic Agent: 3

 

Elite Agent: 4

 

Brick: 4-5

 

Most Characters: 5

 

Speedsters/Martial Artists: 5-6

 

Master Villains/Giant Monsters: 7-8

 

My reasons for doing this are pretty simple.

 

1) Player Boredom: Characters get a reasonable number of actions, but no one sits there chewing their cud for too long while the speedster goes again, and again, and again.

 

2) Classic Champions: This was how Steve Petersen and George MacDonald designed the system in the first place. Don't mess with what works.

 

3) Slower SPDs=Too many recoveries. No one EVER gets kayoed.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

Two questions here, I suppose:

 

1. Is the cost of SPD such that it is a bargain compared to other (combat oriented) things you could spend your points on?

2. What is the right SPD for your character?

 

The first is, unfortunately, going to be answered with ‘it depends’. Which is better: +1 SPD or +5PD and +5 ED? Of +10 PD? Or +2d6 on your Blast? The trouble is, you are asking the wrong people. Most of us have played for years and no longer see the relative value of SPD in the same way someone looking at it for the first time will. I do not doubt that we compensate subconsciously in the construction and use of characters for any inequity of value. Mind you, ultimately, it does not matter, as I hope to demonstrate…

 

As for the second, that is easy, but let me bore you with anecdotal evidence first:

 

We used to assume, back in the day, that superheroes were SPD 6, unless there was a good reason they should not be. Bricks were 4 or 5, Speedsters 7 or 8. I tried a SPD 12 Speedster once and, well, it was boring for everyone else.

 

I have also played a ridiculously powerful Godzilla Monster, with a SPD 2, when everyone else was SPD 5 or 6. I was massively effective, but I was bored this time. I literally fell asleep between to actions. Mind you the booze might have had some input on that.

 

Also, when we decided to set the average SPD at 4 for a new campaign, that extra 20 points made characters feel a LOT more powerful. Mind you this was back when you built character with 250 points, not the 400 you wiper-snappers start with today. You don’t know you’re born….anyway….

 

Bear in mind that SPD is not simply about how fast you can move, it is about how fast you can take your next action. There is a real difference. Someone with super(small ‘s’)speed powers is CAPABLE of reacting and acting much faster than a normal human being, but may not actually use every opportunity to take an action in the chaos of battle, and their lack of combat skills means they have to consider what their next move is all the time. A martial arts trained soldier is used to the sound and fury of the fight and is not distracted by it. His actions are so practiced they are instinctual and one move flows into another in a natural rhythm.

 

Even though the first character’s reactions are measurably superior to the second’s, in fact the second character will take more meaningful actions in the same period of time and therefore should have the higher SPD.

 

So, what is the right SPD for your character? No more than one point off the average for your group. Group average 6? You should be 5 to 7. You get the idea. That way no one is getting left out (we are playing a cooperative game here) and how the groups SPD relates to the rest of the world is, well, irrelevant.

 

If everyone wants SPD 6, normal and agents will look like they are moving in Slo-Mo but can still hurt when they tag you. Superpowered opposition, however (assuming the GM has been paying attention) can have pretty much any SPD, from human (but they will volatilise you if they hit*) to blur (which is annoying but largely harmless*). Players will rapidly realise that, when the opposition has a similar SPD, the amount they spend on SPD is just a background constant, so the cost/benefit thing is a nul. You can’t work this out in isolation.

 

Don’t worry about getting it right, worry about enjoying it.

 

 

 

 

*I know. Humour. Can’t stand smiley faces on everything.

[Greywind]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

I have to disagree with this point. Bricks aren't all created equal in terms of Strength' date=' and a Brick with a high Speed is going to have make some trade-offs to avoid running out of End. I used to run a high-Speed Brick-ish character, but his Strength was only 40. Any higher than that, and he'd have been burning up too much End. Also, the points for that extra Speed had to come from [i']somewhere[/i]. He also had lower defenses than most Bricks; I thought of him as being sort of like a Martial Artist whose damage derived from a medium-to-high Strength instead of Martial Arts maneuvers.

 

heh, if I ever get motivated to do a character thread, I'll have to toss up Thumper. 40 STR. 10 SPD.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

Also have to mention that speedsters are not necessarily high SPD: you can build autofire attacks and big moves that make them appear to be moving like a blur without actually getting more comic book panels than any other character. Look at most 'team' comics and you will not see the speedster getting twice as many panels as anyone else, you will see them doing a lot in the panels they are in.

 

The trick with SPD is to make sure the players all have similar speeds, then just have fun.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

Tacking onto what Hugh said' date=' to me I think that you should set even trained normals lower to speed 2. I personally think that is why you also see higher speed than one should think. [/quote']

 

I agree that characters speeds are bloated' date=' however I disagree with this assessment to some degree. While I do think the average cop is probably Speed 2, characters who routinely train for combat should probably be rated at Speed 3. They will outperform the average non-combatant almost every time. They train to reduce their reaction time when attacking and defending.[/quote']

 

We have limited granularity. In a Supers game, we want our characters to feel Super. 3 SPD for someone with some combat training made sense in a setting where Supers have a typical speed of 5 - 6, with a few slower outliers at SPD 4 and some rarities at higher SPD, say 7 or 8.

 

If we want those slow Bricks to accept a SPD of 2, then I think we have to accept that only the most elite non-Supers are going to surpass that and most non-Supers will be SPD 2. After all, the Brick will see, and plan for, combat at least as much as any other character who "routinely trains for combat". That either means starting the scale at 3, rather than 2 (and everyone up the chain bumps up as well) or restricting non-Supers more heavily.

 

If we decide that pretty much everyone with some combat training and experience has SPD 3, then elite soldiers get SPD 4, and Supers want SPD 5+ simply to show they are Supers. And we're back to 1e - Supers start at SPD 5. For the PC's to be comfortable reducing their SPD, they need to have comfort that the world around them will be scaled to keep them Super. That means, at the low ends, and especially for non-Supers, we probably need to err on the side of conservatism and give them the lower SPD.

 

One mechanism for accomplishing this is what I will call "fractional Speed". OK, we want that well trained police officer/soldier/agent to be a bit faster, but we don't want the same rapid escalation of SPD? Let's not give him SPD 3. He can have SPD 2, with +1 SPD that activates on 10-. In PS 12, he rolls his activation roll. 10-, he has SPD 3 next turn, and 11+ he has SPD 2. I do this with characters pretty often buying SPD up in small point increments with rising activation rolls. For NPC's, keep it simple and make the activation 10- (50/50) and give them the higher SPD every other turn (1st turn SPD 2, next turn SPD 3, after that 2 again, and so on - or make it 11- with the proviso that just means you start with the higher SPD in the first turn and drop down in the second).

[dmjalund]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

Are we talking street value here?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

The trick with SPD is to make sure the players all have similar speeds' date=' then just have fun.[/quote']

 

I have generally found that a 3-point spread in SPD is a good range. I usually opted for 4 to 7.

[Ice9]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

I have no idea what gave you that idea. But I will say that when bricks are just as fast as speedsters and martial artists' date=' the result is that speedsters and martial artists look totally pathetic.[/quote']I'm not so sure about that. IME, the guidelines people set for brick stats vs speedster / MA stats tend to underestimate the significance of SPD. Let's take a look at the common differences:

 

* Damage Output: While Bricks have much higher Strength, that doesn't necessarily mean higher damage. For example, a MA with Str 20, a bo (+2d6 HA), and 2 levels with martial arts, using Offensive Strike does as much as a Str 60 Brick, often with a higher CV. Speedsters using Passing Strike can sometimes surpass a Brick.

* CVs: They're lower. This undercuts any higher damage the Brick has, and (to an extent) undercuts the Brick's greater durability.

* Defense: Ok, almost always significantly higher. But with a lower DCV, they'll be getting hit more. Still an advantage, but not even close to acting 1.5x-2x as often.

 

I think you could easily balance a Brick with the same SPD as a Speedster, just by trading off CV (and movement) for Damage/Defense.

Or conversely, you could balance a Brick with half or a third the SPD - the difference in their other stats would just need to be a lot larger than what I normally see. And the player might fall asleep during combat.

[Greywind]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

I have generally found that a 3-point spread in SPD is a good range. I usually opted for 4 to 7.

 

That's a 4-point spread. You didn't count your origin point.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

That's a 4-point spread. You didn't count your origin point.

 

Close enough.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

I have generally found that a 3-point spread in SPD is a good range. I usually opted for 4 to 7.

 

I think this is where the game evolved. I think, however, that 4 and 7 tend to be outliers. I'd say about 5%, 60% 5, 30% and 5% 7 was the norm for most of our older games. Even the outliers don't see a 2 actions to 1 action tradeoff.

 

I'm not so sure about that. IME, the guidelines people set for brick stats vs speedster / MA stats tend to underestimate the significance of SPD. Let's take a look at the common differences:

 

* Damage Output: While Bricks have much higher Strength, that doesn't necessarily mean higher damage. For example, a MA with Str 20, a bo (+2d6 HA), and 2 levels with martial arts, using Offensive Strike does as much as a Str 60 Brick, often with a higher CV. Speedsters using Passing Strike can sometimes surpass a Brick.

* CVs: They're lower. This undercuts any higher damage the Brick has, and (to an extent) undercuts the Brick's greater durability.

* Defense: Ok, almost always significantly higher. But with a lower DCV, they'll be getting hit more. Still an advantage, but not even close to acting 1.5x-2x as often.

 

I think you could easily balance a Brick with the same SPD as a Speedster, just by trading off CV (and movement) for Damage/Defense.

Or conversely, you could balance a Brick with half or a third the SPD - the difference in their other stats would just need to be a lot larger than what I normally see. And the player might fall asleep during combat.

 

I find this is more an issue with caps in general. They fail to consider the in-play balance issue. At the extreme, everyone has 12 DC and 20 - 25 defenses. If some characters in such a model can have a higher CV and/or SPD, then of course such characters are more powerful. On the other hand, if the MA can have 2 more SPD and 3 more CV, but his damage makes him largely ineffectual, trickling 3 - 5 Stun to the Brick, and the Brick's damage allows him to stun (even KO) the MA in one hit, who will win that combat eventually?

[psyber624]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

Then it comes down to luck (or skill, however you want to categorize it). Which is IMHO one of the key differences in the archetypes. Bricks go into battle knowing that they are pretty much safe, they can weather the storm and come out. They will take some hits, but they can handle it. And you will almost NEVER stun them. They are built so that there is no "randomness" to their defense (or as little as possible). 30 PD is always 30 PD.

 

MA type characters are the opposite. Their "defenses" are all about the dice. They don't have the assurance of never being hurt, but they have the ability to avoid ANY power level of attack, and could (with luck) avoid all attacks. And their builds are all about reducing the luck, by increasing their skills (making it less likely they will get hit.) A smart MA will also take into account the fact that they can still get hit and will use tactics that will both minimize the effect, and allow him time to recuperate.

 

In a fight between the two, who will win is as always left into the hands of the dice gods. They each have their niche (Bricks are better at weathering lots of small attacks (some of which may be incapable of hurting them at all), MA are better at surviving massive attacks (as long as the dice gods don't turn on them).

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

In a fight between the two, who will win is as always left into the hands of the dice gods. They each have their niche (Bricks are better at weathering lots of small attacks (some of which may be incapable of hurting them at all), MA are better at surviving massive attacks (as long as the dice gods don't turn on them).

 

By experience, I found that the outcome is a draw. In a game a while ago, my ninja and mentalist (a friend of mine) was fighting against Brick. Brick as in the orginal champions villian brick. Somehow, the mentalist got knocked out. So it became mexican standoff. I could dodge all day, but when I hit Brick, barely a scratch. He could wallop me, but only if he hit me. I ended it by making a compromise with Brick.

[Greywind]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

Sooner or later the scratches add up or Brick gets lucky and tags the MA. "Compromise" falls under a third option.

 

"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon."

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

Sooner or later the scratches add up or Brick gets lucky and tags the MA. "Compromise" falls under a third option.

 

"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon."

 

Well, that's interesting. Tell me: what do you see when you look at this ink-blot?

[Greywind]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

Pretty flowers.

[Barwickian]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

My games are heroic, rather than superheroic, but the idea of relative speed still applies.

 

My rough rule of thumbgoes like this:

 

SPD 1 - elderly, infirm, toddlers

SPD 2 - most people

SPD 3 - trained veterans, athletes, agile rogues, etc.

SPD 4 - preternaturally fast; signature power level.

SPD 5+ -not generally available to PCs. Reserved for superfast monsters.

 

That being said, there is a tendency among new players to want SPD 4. Speed wins, right? Faster is better?

 

For one-offs, I don't sweat it. If that's what they want from their heroes, fine,

 

It doesn't normally take more than a couple of combats with someone a point of speed lower, who invested the spare 10 points in +5 with longswords, to get the message across.

 

My scale means I tend to find creatures in the Bestiary too fast. I drop most orcs down to SPD 2, for instance. Only orc leaders have 3.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

We've discussed what is a good speed, for a given came or campaign, but not so much the cost of speed. Is 10 points for another action worth it? Yes, I'd say it is, especially if you are a good tactical player.

 

Is it underpriced? Good question. Whether +2 OCV is better than +1 SPD or not is difficult to judge. To an extent it depends on the average campaign speed. In a heroic game where most PCs and NPCs are speed 2 or 3, +1 SPD is a considerable increase in the number of actions available, whereas in a superheroic game the proportional value is less because the difference between SPD 6 and 7 is qualitatively less than between SPD 2 and 3, or 3 and 4.

 

+1 SPD will always be an advantage in combat no matter what the average speeds are, but less so, I would argue, as average speed increases.

 

In a game which caps characteristics, defences and such, +1 SPD may be great because you couldn't spend that 10 points on +10 PD anyway. In a game which mainly revolves around social interaction, it is of less value as you do not use speed when determining if you can charm someone. Often quite the opposite.

 

Is it underpriced then? In some games it is, in some games it isn't and in some games it is just right. Not helpful, but true.

[Orion]

Re: Is Speed underpriced?

 

When I started playing Champions, SPD 6 was the default for everyone that had powers, probably because the GM said to aim for it. Everyone took it - there wasn't even any thought about it. That happened long enough that it became the defacto standard, and all our characters designed afterwards used it as the baseline. When we started playing high point characters, SPD 7 became the new standard. Our GM all through college liked a lot of granularity, and wanted many levels between normal humans and top supers. The rules back then assumed 20 was human maximum for most characteristics, but he used 30 before it ever came out in print.

 

For my campaign, I prefer a different feel to the world. Metahumans have powers, but that doesn't mean they react faster. Some do, but many do not. I want there to be metas with super strength, power blasts, etc. that are no more dexterous or speedy than the average person.

 

SPD 1 = infirm, elderly, and early powered armor

SPD 2 = average human, most powered armor

SPD 3 = trained athlete, typical policeman/soldier/agent, rare alien high tech powered armor

SPD 4 = elite human with intensive combat training

SPD 5 = must have superpowered explanation to reach this level or above

SPD 6 = high powered metahumans

 

Most PCs are assumed to be SPD 3-5, with 4 as the norm. This allows them to act faster than average people, and better than most agents they face. There are no Flash types in the campaign, as I have always disliked that archetype, so I've never worried about defining speedster. I also like the idea of long combats, and characters being able to fight for long periods without tiring. That this is in direct conflict for my want of short, easily resolved combat sessions is an ongoing problem I cannot solve. It's one of thos things that works well in the books, but not in a game.