Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

[dmjalund]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

If I were to redesign the Shapeshift power, I would have "actual shapeshift" dissasociated from touch - change of touch would mean that when he turns into rock, he would feel like rock to touch, etc. Shapoeshift - could then be bought without any sense adders, meaning that the [ersons gerneral form and shape changes - but he is still recognizeably himself - he still looks like himself, sounds like himself, smells like himself, etc.

[psyber624]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

First of all to the sense shape shift, I am not suggesting that D/A Smell would allow you to know that someone is "Scent shifting" I am saying that if he tried to Scent shift into a KNOWN scent that the D/A person could tell the difference between the "real" scent and the "copy". If he just altered his scent so that it's no longer his, the D/A sniffer would no longer be able to track him (although one could argue trace amount of his original scent would linger, but that is a different thread altogether).

 

I, personally, however am going to concede this argument because Sean makes a good point. For the most part SFX do not change how a power works mechanically. And, as written, without the imitation adder a shapeshifter cannot even TRY to imitate something. With the adder he should be able to imitate it really closely. However, many places in the books the author's state that you have to consider "SFX, Dramatic Sense, Realistic Sense, etc" when determining how powers work together, so I feel that house ruling this is in order for me, but that's just my take and in no way reflects RAW.

[dmjalund]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

for a particular SFX, you could buy the Imitation adder with limitations

[phoenix240]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

A character with Shapeshift without the Imitation Adder can try to disguise themselves as someone (or something) specific if they have the Disguise skill.

[phoenix240]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

Maybe using an example other than Sight will help you out. A well known hero is known to track by smell (like Wolverine) so on the way to a robbery someone who can alte their body chemistry uses their Shape Shift Smell/Taste Group power to change their scent. Your character with Analyze on his Scent/Taste walks by him in a crowd. You are suggesting that your character should have the chance to Smell the fact that someone near him is Shape Shifted.

 

That's not exactly what I'm trying to say. I'm suggesting that someone with D/A on their sense of Smell might have a chance to notice something is off about the smell shifted person depending on the situation and sfx. The "smell shifter" might not be able to correctly emulate the extreme detail and nuance of a scent that a D/A character experiences so they could catch the difference. They wouldn't automatically know its "Mutant X altering his scent" but that something seems off. The degree would varying based on the margin of success in their Per roll.

[Greywind]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

That was how Wolverine realized that "Storm" wasn't part of the group.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

That was how Wolverine realized that "Storm" wasn't part of the group.

No, I wasn't. He had been around Storm enough to recognize her scent and know that Mystique's scent was different. Mystique's scent doesn't shift anyway so that doesn't really apply at all.

[Tasha]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

That's not exactly what I'm trying to say. I'm suggesting that someone with D/A on their sense of Smell might have a chance to notice something is off about the smell shifted person depending on the situation and sfx. The "smell shifter" might not be able to correctly emulate the extreme detail and nuance of a scent that a D/A character experiences so they could catch the difference. They wouldn't automatically know its "Mutant X altering his scent" but that something seems off. The degree would varying based on the margin of success in their Per roll.

 

That would only work if the Shapeshifter bought their Smell Shapeshift as Images (only to change scent -5Per).

 

Shapeshift is one of the few Hero Abilities that is absolute. If you have Shapeshift (Sense), that sense cannot tell that the person is shapeshifted. The only way to tell if someone is shapeshifted is to have an Enhanced Sense not covered by the Target's Shapeshift.

 

IF one wants an Illusionary Disguise spell that can be pierced by enough perception, then buy Images no range. -5 Per is usually enough to fool most people. Sight, hearing, Smell/Taste and Touch costs 27 pts(40 active) and has no limits for amount of shapes.

[phoenix240]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

That would only work if the Shapeshifter bought their Smell Shapeshift as Images (only to change scent -5Per).

 

That's RAW which I don't agree with so I was discussing how I would House Rule.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

That's RAW which I don't agree with so I was discussing how I would House Rule.

But why change Shape Shift to work like Images? Why not just USE Images?

Will you allow Analytical Sight to see through Site Group Darkness? What about seeing Sight Group Invisible characters? Do those "absolutes" bother you as much as Shape Shift?

I guess what I really don't understand why your inability to come up with enough details for what you yourself said is a rare use of an Advantage would justify fundamentally changing how another Power works. Again, obviously it is your game and you can do whatever you want, but I've personally never seen an issue even remotely like this and it baffles me that someone would change a Power to accommodate a Modifier, especially if there hasn't been an issue in play.

 

EDIT: I hope I don't come across as saying "your doing it wrong". It's just I can usually understand people's reasons for house rule even if I don't agree, but I'm just at an absolute loss in this case.

[phoenix240]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

But why change Shape Shift to work like Images? Why not just USE Images?

 

It won't work like Images. It a house ruling for a pretty specific situation. Images always grants a Perception roll to see through as well as other differences that would make it a huge kludge to fit into admittedly narrow niche. It's something Discriminatory and Analytical senses can grant in the right situations. Everyone and anyone can't attempt it. It's a simple rules call that works better for me than the current RAW. It seems more logical and consistent with how I few the abilities working and, IMO, makes for more potentially interesting situations than just saying "You can't. Period." and give D/A more to actually do mechanically which seems to be severely lacking the current rules. YMMV.

 

As far as Images go I'd give D/A senses a bonus to see through them based on similar criteria. I can understand not seeing my viewpoint. Like I said earlier one person's irritating rules issue is another person's obsessive nitpick. Just ask Sean Waters.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

So I ask for a 3rd time, will Analytical Sight have a chance to see through Darkness which is also an absolute?

 

What about other enhanced senses? Will IR Sight give a chance to see brought Shape Shift? "That trash can seems to be as hot as a person".

[phoenix240]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

So I ask for a 3rd time' date=' will Analytical Sight have a chance to see through Darkness which is also an absolute?[/quote']

 

No, because it's not the fact it is an absolute that bothers me. For nonaugmented senses, it still is an absolute. It is that it doesn't seem like a reasonable absolute in some cases. I also didn't mention anything about Invisibility. Why do you seem to be getting upset about this? It's a difference of opinion. We're not going to change minds. I'd like to just let it drop.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

First of all, nothing I say should be accepted at face value, or at all, ever. Shapeshift has a number of issues, and here are a couple of thoughts about it all:

 

1. I would make 'actually change shape' an adder for 'Stretching'. 'Touch shapeshift' would cover temperature and texture and such, but not actual shape.

 

2. Shapeshift has a persistence issue: some senses can see into the past: for instance heat traces stick around for a while, as do scents. My take is that (subject to limitations) 'shapeshift' is real. Basically, if you change your scent, then your scent is changed, and, if you lay down your new scent, it STAYS laid down, even if you subsequently change it.

 

3. There is also an issue over absolutity. Absoluteness. Whether shapeshift should be an absolute or not. Should shapeshift be able to perfectly fool senses? Well, yes and no: first of all you should not be able to see through shapeshift: if you change your scent, or appearance or sound or feel or taste, it is ACTUALLY changed, so you can not detect the underlying 'appearance' - it just is not there. However, if you want to appear as something SPECIFIC, that should involve a skill roll, or something. The 'or something' might be the 'imitation' adder: ten points will let you do it right. If you don't like the idea, the imitation adder gives you a skill roll of 11- and each +1 on the skill roll costs +1 point. I'd probably reduce the cost of 'imitation' to 3 points, as it is a skill. You could substitute 'Disguise skill', but I wouldn't: the ability to change shape and the ability to use make-up are probably best kept apart. Definitely complimentary though!

 

4. Is it odd that I keep typing 'shapeshit'? I mean, it is probably a superpower, but not one I'm sure anyone would spend points on...sphincter control? Hmm...look, I've done Obama/Romney*.

 

 

 

*Delete as your political conscience dictates, or stick in the politician of your choice.

[phoenix240]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

To put things a different way, I would also require some sort of roll (or even just say it fails automatically) if a character with a Physical Limitation: Colorblind was attempting to use Shapeshift to change their coloration even if it was just s general change. It might not give away that "Hey, he's using Shapeshift to change his color" but what he's calling green isn't really green. I would likely give a bonus to notice that Images that character created that were based on or strongly dependent on color were illusions. But I would not penealize the same character was using Darkness to block LOS though hexes.

[phoenix240]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

First of all, nothing I say should be accepted at face value, or at all, ever. Shapeshift has a number of issues, and here are a couple of thoughts about it all:

 

1. I would make 'actually change shape' an adder for 'Stretching'. 'Touch shapeshift' would cover temperature and texture and such, but not actual shape.

 

I like that idea.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

But that person got to use color blindness as a Physical Limitation or got a Limitation on the power or both. Plus, if they're using magic or technology that uses photo imaging or [insert 10 other SFX] then their color blindness shouldn't matter.

 

The person who used darkness doesn't have IR or UV Vision and neither does the guy Shape Shifting. Why don't characters with those enhanced senses get a chance to see through Darkness or Shape Shift?

 

Why make the rare edge case the default when you will then have to ignore that new default for a majority of SFX?

[phoenix240]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

But that person got to use color blindness as a Physical Limitation or got a Limitation on the power or both. Plus' date=' if they're using magic or technology that uses photo imaging or [insert 10 other SFX'] then their color blindness shouldn't matter.

 

The person who used darkness doesn't have IR or UV Vision and neither does the guy Shape Shifting. Why don't characters with those enhanced senses get a chance to see through Darkness or Shape Shift?

 

Why make the rare edge case the default when you will then have to ignore that new default for a majority of SFX?

 

I used color blindness to illustrate the relative position of a person with normal senses as opposed to a person that has Discrim or Analyze on their senses. In other words, they've paid for a modifier that gives them access to an ability others don't.

 

I'm not ignoring the "majority" of special effects. Just saying my power is Magical won't automatically bypass the house rule nor would "technology" (What kind of technology? Who developed it? Roughly how does it work so it doesn't rely on the character at all? Perhaps not hard questions but they'd have to be answered). It would require more of a explanation than that. Darkness is a simpler case. It blocks sensory output. There are no fine details or nuances. Invisibility prevents completely (barring Fringe) so again not allot of nuance to worry about so I'm more comfortable with them being binary absolutes.

 

Obviously you don't agree and I've tried to explain my position so may we just let it drop?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

What about IR and UV vision (not trying to be repetitive but you never answered)? They are paid for as well, do they get a chance to see through Shape Shift?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

Shapeshift has to be independent of the senses of the person with the ability: I mean, it would make a great deal of sense for someone who could not see colour to screw up colours when shapeshifting, but you HAVE to do that by a limitation, or some sort of activation roll (you are not NECESSARILY going to get that wrong): anything else and you are tying one ability's functionality to another's. Bad thing.

[phoenix240]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

What about IR and UV vision (not trying to be repetitive but you never answered)? They are paid for as well' date=' do they get a chance to see through Shape Shift?[/quote']

 

Oh I'd gotten the impression you were talking about UV/IR vs Darkness. If the situation and sfx warrant it I could see that. Again it would be more a chance to notice something is suspicious and odd about the subject rather than see through the Shapeshift (they're not going to reveal who they really are). Darkness is doing something I find conceptually simpler than what Shapeshift is doing so its easier to accept it being broad, binary and absolute.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

Groups are pretty cheap vs individual senses; just saying.

[phoenix240]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

Shapeshift has to be independent of the senses of the person with the ability: I mean' date=' it would make a great deal of sense for someone who could not see colour to screw up colours when shapeshifting, but you HAVE to do that by a limitation, or some sort of activation roll (you are not NECESSARILY going to get that wrong): anything else and you are tying one ability's functionality to another's. Bad thing.[/quote']

 

I don't agree. And isn't that what was being suggested earlier in the thread regarding the effectiveness of Analyze/Discriminatory? That those abilities would be limited even misleading without Skills to support them? It's not usually going to be a given you get it wrong with what I'm saying. It's based on a roll which the character can increase and modify in a number of ways (or just get the Initiate Adder and be done with the whole thing).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

What about IR and UV vision (not trying to be repetitive but you never answered)? They are paid for as well, do they get a chance to see through Shape Shift?

 

Why does the Imitation Adder automatically defeat the Analytical sense? Per RAW you can only Imitate what you can observe (I believe the example is seeing a picture of someone allows you to Imitate their appearance but obviously not their voice. Your color blind illustration would then seem to continue to apply even with the Imitation Adder. Perhaps with your house rule Imitation should cost more and the base power, having less utility, should cost less?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advice sought: Uncommon Sense(s)

 

"Can't shapeshift vs senses that the character does not have; -1/2"

 

Lovely.