HAP: How to use them

[Michael Hopcroft]

One of the things I immediately noticed in Champions Complete once I encountered it is Heroic Action Points [HAP], which I don't recall seeing in Hero System before. What I'm wondering is whether people are going to actually use them and how.

 

One thing I'm thinking is that it might be a good idea to take the 2d6 roll out of the equation and give each PC a set number to use at the start (if you want to do the average, 7 might be a good number). If HAP are especially useful I don't think I want to be the guy who got only has 3 while the player next to me has 11.

 

On the other hand, it doesn't seem like a single HAP can do a whole lot. Specifically, there are not many situations where one HAP can convert a failure into a success. To do that you may have to burn four or five in one go.

[Gary Miles]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

Heroic Action Points were introduced in 5th Ed, with "Pulp Hero".

[Barton]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

I allow them to alter any dice roll, but must declare in advance how many to spend (including enough needed for desired effect).

I allow players to use ALL they have to save themselves from death, but they will be out of action for a period of time.

In my Pulp game they are also rewarded for good role playing as a bonus, but I award session HAP points secretly.

[Ndreare]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

We have been using a system like them suggest since we first played FUZION. Many players and I both fell in love with luck. A awards them for everything in many games. Make every one laugh, do something awesome, sump me, bribe me, trade them, whatever. The are the overall currency of fun.

[Sean Waters]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

One might ask how HAPs differ meaningfully from some uses of Luck. I'm a firm fan of building new stuff in Hero with old stuff: I'm pretty sure you could make a reasonable stab at a 'Action point Talent' as a real build rather than introducing a new mechanic. HAPs can be used after a roll, of course, but you could even do that with skill rolls and a variation on the 'Charges' modifier.

[psyber624]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

They are in 6e as an optional rule, but I did notice that CC doesn't exactly list them as optional (of course none of it is actually REQUIRED to use ). Personally I like the flavor and feel of them. They are very similar to Luck in some ways, but with more concrete effects. I also would give them away frequently during the course of a game as minor rewards as they are easier to control and manage than XP (generally speaking I would use them as "personal rewards" with xp being more along the lines of "team rewards" so everyone stays at about the same xp level in a game.)

 

In another thread someone mentioned the possibility of designing powers with a limitation that they required the expenditure of HAP's to use, which I really like as well. (It gives you the flavor of an attack, etc. that you only want to use in REALLY important circumstances.) If I ever get to run another campaign I have considered using this idea to allow each character a "signature attack" that bypasses standard AP caps but requires the use of HAP's to regulate it.

 

Finally, to roll or not to roll is really a difficult question to answer. If I was a GM I would probably allow someone who rolled REALLY badly a re-roll (since this might be less fun for them) but would not force rerolls if you rolled high. (IE if you roll under a 5 you get one reroll to try and do better, or possibly allow ANYONE to reroll if they wish but they have to take the second roll, even if its worse.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

To the rolling issue, you re-roll at the start of the next session, so it seems likely to average out over time. If you consider a low roll problematic, perhaps replacing the roll with a standard effect would be more appropriate.

[psyber624]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

To me its not really an issue of it being problematic, but the "impression" it leaves upon my PC's. IE a PC who rolls low and doesn't like roleplaying the concept of a "bad day" for instance might be rather unhappy which could negatively impact the game session for that day. Allowing a reroll seems to be an option that would help to alleviate this problem, while not eliminating the possibility of the "high roll" high that can infest someone who gets that great roll. In my experience (at least with the people I tend to play with) there is little in the way of "jealousy" for good luck among gamers (especially if they are on the same team) unless it happens ALL the time (One of my best friends was known by the nickname "Lucky" and probably had about 6 dice of luck on his "real life" character sheet, the amount of times things went his way, both in and out of game, was simply unreal.). However, many gamers I have played with will bemoan and become borderline depressive if their own luck seems to be bad on a given night. Yeah, some of the best just roll with it and have fun roleplaying it out, but that's not exactly common in my experience.

[The Main Man]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

First, I swear by HAPs and similar mechanics in other games.

 

Second, HAPs are not as individually potent as other games' versions of the mechanic. Thus, a GM needs to be more cautious because too few HAPs/game will seem next to meaningless while too many will make the game a cakewalk..

 

That said, I look for ways to utilize them beyond simple die roll adjustment. I'll share such the first chance I get.to

 

Furthermore, I have been looking into ways to create a HAP economy, and this thread looks about as good a place to share such ideas. Again, first chance I get (gotta get mah notes first).

[The Main Man]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

So, about those ideas...

 

I. Complications. It's done in M&M to rather decent effect, but I've yet to see a good implementation for HERO. I think that a scaled approach could work; not all Complications are created equal after all, so why should they give uniform reward? Furthermore, the Complication must actually complicate matters for the PC. A Hunted must actively make matters worse; their Code of the Hero must cause them an inconvenience; Their Secret Identity must actually put the character in a quandary. If the GM believes it is the case, then they give the PC a few HAPs for accepting the consequences of the Complication.

+1 - Accept consequences of Minor Complication (5-10pts)

+2 - Accept consequences of Moderate Complication (15-20pts)

+3 - Accept consequences of Major Complication (25+pts)

 

If a PC gains HAPs for accepting the consequences, what if they can also pay HAPs to deny/negate those consequences in certain situations? This one is a little murkier I'll admit, but it is ultimately up to the GM. On the one hand, Susceptibilities and Vulnerabilities tend to be cut and dry. On the other hand, many Complications are simply story elements - to deny their consequences is to essentially render them a non-factor for your character for the time being.

-1 - Deny/Negate consequences of Minor Complication

-2 - Deny/Negate consequences of Moderate Complication

-3 - Deny/Negate consequences of Major Complication

 

II. Critical Success and Failure. This is one area I have interest in implementing quite a bit; having HAPs play some part in the success of a Critical roll. Observe:

+3 - Downgrade Critical Success to simple roll of 3

+/-0 - Accept Critical Success as auto-success only

-3 - Upgrade Critical Success to additional benefits

-3 - Upgrade Critical Failure to simple roll of 18

+/-0 - Accept Critical Failure as auto-failure only

+3 - Accept Critical Failure with additional effects

 

Think of every Critically Succeeded PER Roll or Skill Roll that you really didn't need. Think of every Critically Failed Skill or Attack roll you really did need. These can work to play around with that a little. Bear in mind that none of these will ever change a non-Critical roll to a Critical one; they still must be naturally rolled.

 

 

III. Role Playing. These rewards and penalties are related to the playing of characters. The main points of these rewards are similar to the "Appropriate Unlikely Actions" from the Champions genre books of old. They are rewards for performing various actions that defy common sense but make perfect sense in other ways. Additionally, they must be actions that matter.

+1 - Adventurous, Bold, Clever, Heroic Actions

+1-3 - Action was Critical to adventure

-1 - Cowardly, Idiotic, Impulsive, Unheroic Actions

-1-3 - Action was Critical to adventure

+1-3 - Entertaining, Memorable, Noteworthy, etc actions

-1 - Invoke a Genre Trope to Character's Advantage

+1 - Invoke a Genre Trope to Character's/Characters' Disadvantage

-1 - Play in Genre/Style/Tone to own Advantage

+1 - Play in Genre/Style/Tone to own Disadvantage

 

 

I have yet to implement any of these Heroic Action Point rewards. They are all speculative for myself at this time. I hope people like them, and I hope I get some helpful feedback to improve them.

[The Main Man]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

Other things I do with Heroic Action Points:

 

I. Here's a scale I found that generally works for starting Heroic Action Points. It does depend on just how amazing you want your PCs to be though.

3 - Competent Normal

6 - Standard Heroic

9 - Powerful Heroic

12 - Very Powerful Heroic

15 - Low-Powered Superheroic

18- Standard Superheroic

21 - Powerful Superheroic

 

II. Something I have implemented which puts the above levels to great use is what I call "Stunts." I've done a thread on this idea before and I swear by them now too.

 

To me, many characters that HERO sets out to simulate do too many things to be affordable for what HERO recommends, but to give PCs as many points as needed would become equally absurd. So I cut the Gordian knot by deciding that maybe PCs can attempt certain things at the cost of Heroic Action Points.

 

In summary, Stunts give PCs the ability to attempt certain Super Skills (Dark Champions)/ Heroic Talents (Pulp HERO) for free, though usually at a lesser degree than the full ability. I use most of the Skill Roll-based Super Skills/etc for this purpose. The catch? It costs 1 Heroic Action Point to attempt in the first place, and those Skill Roll penalties usually mean you might need a few more to pull it off; this prevents a PC from using them willy nilly. PCs are free to buy these same abilities for the sake of improvement; they pay half the Real Cost in return.

 

III. Additional Little Things I Do.

-1x - Raise REC +1 for one Recovery

+1-10 - PC is in Negative BODY (up to -10)

+3/+1 - PC is Knocked Out; KO'ed PC gains +3 HAPs; Their fellow PCs gain +1 HAP each.

+3 - PC dies; Their fellow PCs gain +3 HAPs each

+2 - Absent player bonus; All present players start with +2 HAPs per absent player; this assumes that they really could use those other PCs.

+6 - Brand New PC Smell; A PC gets +6 HAPs in their first game to give them some room to really shine

+3 - Still Fresh PC Smell; A PC gets +3 HAPs in their second game to keep shining a little more and get to know that character; no additional HAPs after that though.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

OK, I'm going to play "spot the negatives" so bear with me...

 

So, about those ideas...

 

I. Complications. It's done in M&M to rather decent effect, but I've yet to see a good implementation for HERO. I think that a scaled approach could work; not all Complications are created equal after all, so why should they give uniform reward? Furthermore, the Complication must actually complicate matters for the PC. A Hunted must actively make matters worse; their Code of the Hero must cause them an inconvenience; Their Secret Identity must actually put the character in a quandary. If the GM believes it is the case, then they give the PC a few HAPs for accepting the consequences of the Complication.

+1 - Accept consequences of Minor Complication (5-10pts)

+2 - Accept consequences of Moderate Complication (15-20pts)

+3 - Accept consequences of Major Complication (25+pts)

 

This means my HAP rise faster if my Complications are more frequent, since a 15 - 20 point complication that rarely arises but is very severe will carry the same 2 HAP bonus as one which arises all the time with minor consequences. Gaming the system means trying to bring your complications into play in situations where their down sides are limited, and arguing your complications should apply more often. "Hey, we haven't seen my Hunted for a while." "My character is late because he had to call his DNPC girlfriend - how many HAP do I get?"

 

What about complications in excess of the point-based limits? Do I get HAP's when these additional complications come into play?

 

If a PC gains HAPs for accepting the consequences' date=' what if they can also pay HAPs to deny/negate those consequences in certain situations? This one is a little murkier I'll admit, but it [b']is[/b] ultimately up to the GM. On the one hand, Susceptibilities and Vulnerabilities tend to be cut and dry. On the other hand, many Complications are simply story elements - to deny their consequences is to essentially render them a non-factor for your character for the time being.

-1 - Deny/Negate consequences of Minor Complication

-2 - Deny/Negate consequences of Moderate Complication

-3 - Deny/Negate consequences of Major Complication

 

This seems like a pretty reasonable use of HAP to me. However, coming back to the issues above, does this effectively create a structure where complications are only relevant when their consequences are negligible, building up some HAP to avoid their impact when they would be more significant, with the result that complications become minor quirks, easily avoided when they would significantly complicate the character but appearing again when they have less impact?

 

II. Critical Success and Failure. This is one area I have interest in implementing quite a bit; having HAPs play some part in the success of a Critical roll. Observe:

+3 - Downgrade Critical Success to simple roll of 3

+/-0 - Accept Critical Success as auto-success only

-3 - Upgrade Critical Success to additional benefits

-3 - Upgrade Critical Failure to simple roll of 18

+/-0 - Accept Critical Failure as auto-failure only

+3 - Accept Critical Failure with additional effects

 

Think of every Critically Succeeded PER Roll or Skill Roll that you really didn't need. Think of every Critically Failed Skill or Attack roll you really did need. These can work to play around with that a little. Bear in mind that none of these will ever change a non-Critical roll to a Critical one; they still must be naturally rolled.

 

I'm thinking of lots of PER and Skill uses that don't require a roll now "needing" that roll to give Our Hero a shot at building up some HAP with limited or no down side. "I try to Persuade my DNPC Girlfriend to let me go bowling with the guys next Friday - oh a 3 - I'll downgrade it/argh an 18 - I'll accept that I also have to do the laundry this weekend." And don't forget the bonus for my complication!

 

III. Role Playing. These rewards and penalties are related to the playing of characters. The main points of these rewards are similar to the "Appropriate Unlikely Actions" from the Champions genre books of old. They are rewards for performing various actions that defy common sense but make perfect sense in other ways. Additionally, they must be actions that matter.

+1 - Adventurous, Bold, Clever, Heroic Actions

+1-3 - Action was Critical to adventure

-1 - Cowardly, Idiotic, Impulsive, Unheroic Actions

-1-3 - Action was Critical to adventure

+1-3 - Entertaining, Memorable, Noteworthy, etc actions

-1 - Invoke a Genre Trope to Character's Advantage

+1 - Invoke a Genre Trope to Character's/Characters' Disadvantage

-1 - Play in Genre/Style/Tone to own Advantage

+1 - Play in Genre/Style/Tone to own Disadvantage

 

Does a brave, heroic action which invokes the genre/style/tone of the game to succeed in a challenge start at a base +1 for the action - 1 for the tropes working to your advantage, so nothing?

 

Do these rewards replace or supplement role playing xp awards? There's a move in many game systems to avoid variant xp which results in PC's diverging in power levels. Replacing those awards with HAP would seem more palatable, as the characters will gain temporary benefits rather than permanent power increases. As well, an extra HAP or 2 is much easier to hand out on a fairly regular basis than extra xp.

 

Several of these are negatives. Can the character drop into the negatives, or can he only take these on if he has positive HAP? I'm out of HAP, so I can no longer cite genre tropes that benefit me? The GM will no longer allow me to do something Cowardly, Idiotic, Impulsive, Unheroic or Play in Genre/Style/Tone if it's advantageous? How do these mesh with the rewards for complications (like a character who has psychs like Cowardly or Impulsive)? Often, it is in genre/style/tone to be impulsive - pretty stupid for that Horror PC to walk down into the dark basement, but very much in keeping with the genre tropes.

 

Of course, we have the usual issues with the GM judging the players' role playing of their characters. We've had lots of discussions of those issues in other threads.

 

Other things I do with Heroic Action Points:

 

I. Here's a scale I found that generally works for starting Heroic Action Points. It does depend on just how amazing you want your PCs to be though.

3 - Competent Normal

6 - Standard Heroic

9 - Powerful Heroic

12 - Very Powerful Heroic

15 - Low-Powered Superheroic

18- Standard Superheroic

21 - Powerful Superheroic

 

II. Something I have implemented which puts the above levels to great use is what I call "Stunts." I've done a thread on this idea before and I swear by them now too.

 

To me, many characters that HERO sets out to simulate do too many things to be affordable for what HERO recommends, but to give PCs as many points as needed would become equally absurd. So I cut the Gordian knot by deciding that maybe PCs can attempt certain things at the cost of Heroic Action Points.

 

In summary, Stunts give PCs the ability to attempt certain Super Skills (Dark Champions)/ Heroic Talents (Pulp HERO) for free, though usually at a lesser degree than the full ability. I use most of the Skill Roll-based Super Skills/etc for this purpose. The catch? It costs 1 Heroic Action Point to attempt in the first place, and those Skill Roll penalties usually mean you might need a few more to pull it off; this prevents a PC from using them willy nilly. PCs are free to buy these same abilities for the sake of improvement; they pay half the Real Cost in return.

 

Stunts seems reasonable, whether in isolation or using HAP in conjunction with the Power Skill.

 

III. Additional Little Things I Do.

-1x - Raise REC +1 for one Recovery

+1-10 - PC is in Negative BODY (up to -10)

+3/+1 - PC is Knocked Out; KO'ed PC gains +3 HAPs; Their fellow PCs gain +1 HAP each.

+3 - PC dies; Their fellow PCs gain +3 HAPs each

+2 - Absent player bonus; All present players start with +2 HAPs per absent player; this assumes that they really could use those other PCs.

+6 - Brand New PC Smell; A PC gets +6 HAPs in their first game to give them some room to really shine

+3 - Still Fresh PC Smell; A PC gets +3 HAPs in their second game to keep shining a little more and get to know that character; no additional HAPs after that though.

 

hmmmmm...so it's in my best interests to encourage absences, let my teammates get KO'd or killed, etc. Hey, the new ones get bonus HAP's, so it's a win/win!

 

Seems like a character with minimal defenses and lots of regeneration could be an HAP machine - keep dipping into negative BOD for fun and profit! If I slap Resurrection on there, can my character share the bonus HAP for a PC dying? "Guys, this looks like it could be a tough adventure. Better beat Mr. Immortal to death a few dozen times so we have lots of HAP - make sure you KO him first so he gets some HAP as well. We'll call it a Team Training Session - that's a genre trope, right? OK, who's got relevant Complications to bring in?

 

Do we keep the "HAP reset at the start of each session" model? As I watch the clock tick forward, it becomes more practical to use them all up since they'll just disappear otherwise. Seems pretty painful to do some great role playing, suffer for my complications, be disadvantages by genre tropes, get smashed up by critical failures, ignore my own critical successes, get KO'd and knocked to negative BOD, sitting out an extensive combat scene, then finally recover and have the game end, so all my HAP reset at the start of the next game. On the other hand, one can see the Horder (especially one with some bad combat luck over a session or three) accumulate a huge HAP pool and be able to accomplish the impossible for a session.

[Ndreare]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

The system I use in my own game RiGS, and in most games is as follows cut and pste even). It works great in HERO 6 were complication have become optional anyways. Player Characters are not required to select complications but if they do they are rewarded for springing them on themselves or even when I hit them with it.

This is consistent with a lot of fiction as things go progresevly downhill fast and the HERO comes out strong in the end.

As I said before it helps drive the story with the kind of twist we see in fiction and the HAP (influence in RiGS) is a general currency of game goodness.

 

PS: Out of lazyness no effort was made to reformat in this post.

 

COMPLICATIONS, FLAWS & INFLUENCE

Characters in fiction often have complications & flaws that inhibit their adventures. It is even common for a character's most dominant traits to be his flaws. These complications and flaws play an important part in the adventures and stories character’s have.

As a benefit of selecting flaws characters gain the ability to influence the story in their favor. This is represented game mechanically by Influence. Whenever Complications or Flaws inhibit the character from succeeding at a significant event the character gains 1-Influence. If the Complication or Flaw was induced by the game master the character gains 2-Influence.

Character complications & flaws can include a wide range of story elements from a dependent daughter that needs protected, a sense of honor to protect people, a thieves code or a power that cannot be used or fails when the character is hindered in some way.

Character also gain 1-Influence if they fail at a significant roll or event even if they do not possess a Complication related to the event. In this way even characters with few complications listed on their character sheet can gain Influence from story elements introduced by the game master such as family members showing up and getting into trouble.

 

Influence

Influence is a measure of a characters significance and influence over the story, the story’s desire to shape itself to the character and the ability of major characters to perform feats above and beyond what should be expected of them.

The game mechanics of Influence are fairly simple each point of influence used by a character provides one of the following effects. While it is possible to spend influence and fail in most cases it will be enough to make the difference.

Change a trivial element of the story to be more convenient for the character. Such as a character stating he prepared for this contingency and conveniently has a lighter to start a fire. Cost: 1-Influence

Add +1 to an effect roll. Cost: 1-Influence per +1 to roll.

Add +1 to a skill roll to a maximum of +3. Cost: 1-Influence per +1 to roll.

Change a minor element of the story to be more convenient for the character. This is often called the reveal in fiction were the character shows that he has been recording the whole conversation or that he knew he would be caught so he made a deal with some opposing force to be there at the end. Cost: 3-Influence

The Rub: The bad side of influence is that no character can have total control of everything. For this reason a character may have a maximum of 5-Influence at any given time. In addition the characters Influence is reduced to 0 at the beginning of every adventure (series of sessions leading to a climax).

This game mechanic can be considered to represent how characters frequently seem to progressively get into more and more trouble until the climax of an adventure. As well as representing why sometimes even in the middle of a conflict more trouble pops up. (After all the character ran out of Influence and needed to get more.)

[The Main Man]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

OK' date=' I'm going to play "spot the negatives" so bear with me...[/quote']

It's basically what I asked for, so without further ado...

 

This means my HAP rise faster if my Complications are more frequent, since a 15 - 20 point complication that rarely arises but is very severe will carry the same 2 HAP bonus as one which arises all the time with minor consequences. Gaming the system means trying to bring your complications into play in situations where their down sides are limited, and arguing your complications should apply more often. "Hey, we haven't seen my Hunted for a while." "My character is late because he had to call his DNPC girlfriend - how many HAP do I get?"

 

What about complications in excess of the point-based limits? Do I get HAP's when these additional complications come into play?

The key here is that the PC will accept that they are going to bear some burden as a result of the Complication. Calling their DNPC girlfriend would not give them any HAPs - the DNPC must be in danger and thus pose a problem/dilemma for the PC. Bumping into a Hunted is not good enough - Doctor Destroyer stopping by for a milkshake while belittling the PC wouldn't net any points. Doctor Destroyer showing up to punch the PC in the mouth, however, would give them points.

 

You do bring up a good point about frequency versus severity being lopsided. Perhaps it should be strictly based on severity - how much it actually affects the PC. Its frequency just helps it pop up more or less. If a PC wants a very frequent and very severe complication then they need to get ready for their character to suffer greatly for it and very often. That said, I'd have to consider what constitutes a minor, moderate, or major severity in the first place; some are more obvious than others.

 

This seems like a pretty reasonable use of HAP to me. However, coming back to the issues above, does this effectively create a structure where complications are only relevant when their consequences are negligible, building up some HAP to avoid their impact when they would be more significant, with the result that complications become minor quirks, easily avoided when they would significantly complicate the character but appearing again when they have less impact?

 

I would say that could be a result if a player so chooses, which thus results in a net zero effect - they let some Complications affect them, they negate others. It's their choice, but they'd hardly get the best use of them that way. I think the fact they could temporarily buy off Complications one instance at a time can serve to curb the frequency problem you observed above. On the other hand, perhaps this usage of HAPs could be based on frequency just as the other is based on severity. The more frequent the complication, the fewer HAPs it takes to negate it - after all, it will happen again sooner than the others.

 

I'm thinking of lots of PER and Skill uses that don't require a roll now "needing" that roll to give Our Hero a shot at building up some HAP with limited or no down side. "I try to Persuade my DNPC Girlfriend to let me go bowling with the guys next Friday - oh a 3 - I'll downgrade it/argh an 18 - I'll accept that I also have to do the laundry this weekend." And don't forget the bonus for my complication!

I generally place myself in the "roll if it's actually important" school of rolling dice. That is subjective, yes, but I think the liberal use of skills for rather mundane things like that wouldn't be rewarded. They're Heroic Action Points, not Normal, Everyday BS Points. It's ultimately GM discretion here.

 

 

Does a brave, heroic action which invokes the genre/style/tone of the game to succeed in a challenge start at a base +1 for the action - 1 for the tropes working to your advantage, so nothing?

Good point. It seems to me that each works fine on their own, but they have a lot of potential to easily achieve zero effect.

 

Do these rewards replace or supplement role playing xp awards? There's a move in many game systems to avoid variant xp which results in PC's diverging in power levels. Replacing those awards with HAP would seem more palatable, as the characters will gain temporary benefits rather than permanent power increases. As well, an extra HAP or 2 is much easier to hand out on a fairly regular basis than extra xp.

That's the general idea, yes. My intention to to remove the CP incentive from role playing - CP becomes a flat reward in the name of player balance; I've found balancing PCs based on their total CP and reconciling effort and ability with that is more trouble than it's worth. The CP incentive therefore becomes a HAP incentive. The incentive remains but it's become a more immediate and more short-term reward thus theoretically encouraging more desired role playing styles.

 

Several of these are negatives. Can the character drop into the negatives, or can he only take these on if he has positive HAP? I'm out of HAP, so I can no longer cite genre tropes that benefit me? The GM will no longer allow me to do something Cowardly, Idiotic, Impulsive, Unheroic or Play in Genre/Style/Tone if it's advantageous? How do these mesh with the rewards for complications (like a character who has psychs like Cowardly or Impulsive)? Often, it is in genre/style/tone to be impulsive - pretty stupid for that Horror PC to walk down into the dark basement, but very much in keeping with the genre tropes.

Good points; This seems to be the flimsiest of my ideas - I think they still all have individual merit, but they fall apart upon meshing together. Maybe the penalties ought to be removed and there is either reward or no reward but no penalties.

 

Of course, we have the usual issues with the GM judging the players' role playing of their characters. We've had lots of discussions of those issues in other threads.

True. I admit that this one is a very "gut feeling" thing.

 

I plan to redraft a lot of the "Role Playing" HAP rewards and then post them when I think I have a better working model.

 

Stunts seems reasonable, whether in isolation or using HAP in conjunction with the Power Skill.

Lotsa fun, I can assure you. That and they give incentive to use any HAPs gained. Takes a few sessions for players to "get it" though, game-play-wise.

As for the Power Skill, there is a similar system for Superheroes I've been working on and even started a thread on it: Everyman VPPs. It's basically the Superhero equivalent to "Stunts."

 

 

hmmmmm...so it's in my best interests to encourage absences, let my teammates get KO'd or killed, etc. Hey, the new ones get bonus HAP's, so it's a win/win!

1-2 points is a small condolence and only really adds up if your group is regularly large and (counterintuitively) regularly absent. In my group of 8 people, if it came down to 1 GM and 1 Player, that player would get +12 HAPs for that game. That's six absent players; I dunno about that being a good long-term plan.

 

Second, if my teammates regularly get killed/knocked out, then they most likely will catch on to my benefitting from it and thus make tougher characters. It's no fun being knocked out/dead. It's self-regulating if you ask me.

 

Seems like a character with minimal defenses and lots of regeneration could be an HAP machine - keep dipping into negative BOD for fun and profit! If I slap Resurrection on there, can my character share the bonus HAP for a PC dying? "Guys, this looks like it could be a tough adventure. Better beat Mr. Immortal to death a few dozen times so we have lots of HAP - make sure you KO him first so he gets some HAP as well. We'll call it a Team Training Session - that's a genre trope, right? OK, who's got relevant Complications to bring in?

That is an interesting abuse of the system that I have yet to encounter. I'll have to think about that one. That said, as usual, it needs to be relevant; meaningful; substantial. Just because one has Healing or Regeneration doesn't mean they can soak up HAPs because of BODY damage from friendly fire. One of those "I see through your tricks" kind of things any good GM is on the look out for anyway.

 

Do we keep the "HAP reset at the start of each session" model? As I watch the clock tick forward, it becomes more practical to use them all up since they'll just disappear otherwise. Seems pretty painful to do some great role playing, suffer for my complications, be disadvantages by genre tropes, get smashed up by critical failures, ignore my own critical successes, get KO'd and knocked to negative BOD, sitting out an extensive combat scene, then finally recover and have the game end, so all my HAP reset at the start of the next game. On the other hand, one can see the Horder (especially one with some bad combat luck over a session or three) accumulate a huge HAP pool and be able to accomplish the impossible for a session.

I use it as a baseline. A player regains up to that amount every game within the same story arc. If they have more, then they start with what they had at the end of the last game.

 

I have thought about ways to translate excess HAPs into bonus CP at the end of story arcs in a way similar to Karma from Marvel Super Heroes, but I have nothing substantial that I think even begins to work right. Besides, there's that whole "remove CP incentive" motive I listed above.

[Jas]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

I don't use them, and would not under most any circumstance use them, in my games. But then I also dislike Fate points, Bennies, and Hero Points in every other game I've encountered them in. For me, the dice, and the luck that they produce, is what makes the game. I want to roll with that roll, and let the story happen as it does, even if (and sometimes especially if) it's bad news. I would rather take a bullet to the throat on a lucky roll from a villain and die a horrifying death, forcing me to create a new character, if it means that the other characters will all get a visceral experience out of the event.

 

Basically, any mechanic that I see as "meta" - that is, outside of a decision made by my character - is directly counter to my immersion in my character. So no, I wouldn't use them in my games, and were I in a game where they were in use, I would probably not ever use them for that very reason, and if the GM was worried about my "saving them up" and didn't take me at my word that I wasn't ever going to use them, I'd burn them all on a ridiculous roll, like a perception check, in the first act.

[The Main Man]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

I don't use them, and would not under most any circumstance use them, in my games. But then I also dislike Fate points, Bennies, and Hero Points in every other game I've encountered them in. For me, the dice, and the luck that they produce, is what makes the game. I want to roll with that roll, and let the story happen as it does, even if (and sometimes especially if) it's bad news. I would rather take a bullet to the throat on a lucky roll from a villain and die a horrifying death, forcing me to create a new character, if it means that the other characters will all get a visceral experience out of the event.

 

Basically, any mechanic that I see as "meta" - that is, outside of a decision made by my character - is directly counter to my immersion in my character. So no, I wouldn't use them in my games, and were I in a game where they were in use, I would probably not ever use them for that very reason, and if the GM was worried about my "saving them up" and didn't take me at my word that I wasn't ever going to use them, I'd burn them all on a ridiculous roll, like a perception check, in the first act.

 

Just a thought, but I wonder now if the Drama/Fate/Bennie/etc point appeals to Narrativist players more than it does to Gamist players. I have a player who has a similar outlook as you in that he almost always just accepts his rolls. I, on the other hand, look at dice as these dumb objects that you can always count on to let you down. I would definitely classify him primarily as a Gamist (followed closely by Simulationist) while I am more of a Narrativist.

 

That's of course if one subscribes to GNS theory at all...

[psyber624]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

Well, MainMan, this is ENTIRELY my opinion on the matter and should not be in any way construed as an attack against you or your playstyle, but it would seem your system to me is really overcomplicated and would likely create a whole new metagame based around scoring HAPs for your character. This would also have the result of making skill roll bonuses much less useful (as if its REALLY important that you make it you will always have a few HAPs sitting around to burn.) Also, having lots of ways to "loose" HAP's is probably a bad idea in my opinion. That encourages players to spend them up (since if they don't have any they can't loose any).

 

My preferred method (STRICTLY my opinion of course) is that everyone gets a relatively equal pool at the start (dice roll with reroll or modifiers or such.) I will also award them occasionally for good roleplaying. As a guideline I would reward something like this:

+1 HAP for great roleplaying which enhances the game and makes it more fun for everyone

+2 if you are roleplaying a "negative" applied to your character well (Ever see a character with "Cowardly" who runs right into fray right off the bat every time? Ugh.) This one is situational and likely to only be awarded at most once per session (possibly even post session for next time if it becomes an issue "Im cowardly this time to get my bonus HAP, but now Ill act normal since I have them."

+1 for truly Heroic actions that lead to success

 

And the only way to loose them is to forget that these are "HEROIC Action Points." If you are trying to game the system, thats not heroic. If your killing off people in a game where that's not appropriate, thats not heroic. If you are shooting a teammate in the back because you had a fight in RL and want to get even in game, that's not heroic. Heroic Action Points are for Heroic Characters only. And frankly if I take them away from you that should be a warning that next step is asking you to leave (IE I would only do it under extreme circumstances). Of course, many of these may not apply in certain tones/genres of games, but you get the drift.

 

Also, they are wiped out at the end of every adventure. The idea is that they are precious, using them early should be a major consideration. Until you get to the final boss fight. Then its time to "HERO UP!" and kick some ass.

 

As for how to spend them: (all apply to YOUR rolls only)

1 point to modify any one dice roll by +/-1 (max 3) (effect roll, success roll, whatever) done AFTER the roll (so you know your going to get your money's worth)

3 points to reroll any one dice roll (the entire roll, not part of it. If you want to reroll your 18d6 Move Through you gotta reroll all 18 dice, no keeping the good ones)

1 point to increase your defense vs a single attack by one point (usually to turn Stuns into "almost stuns" but the only way for a HERO to affect the other guys rolls. Note I would not normally allow this to be used for DCV/DMCV)

2 points to use a "signature attack" (something I am toying with, i need to playtest it some. Basically an attack that gets around normal limits of the game)

1 point to use a power skill to use a power in a "SFX only" related way (IE it bears no resemblance to the power you have with that SFX) i.e. I have a EB defined as Electrical Blast, and I want to move through power lines (transforming your body to electricity has nothing to do with shooting lightning bolts out of your hands, they are just the same SFX). All other normal "Power Tricks" rules apply (ie only once, no repeats, etc.) Also generally not useable for attacks.

 

 

All Points: And possibly "all points" to not "die" due to a lucky dice roll on a villains part. If used for this may take a portion of points out of the next session as well (so everyone doesn't just horde that last point "just in case".)

 

 

Any of the random stuff happens sort of thing I personally feel is way to far into LUCK's bailiwick and so I really don't like allowing using them for that.

[Jas]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

Just a thought' date=' but I wonder now if the Drama/Fate/Bennie/etc point appeals to Narrativist players more than it does to Gamist players. I have a player who has a similar outlook as you in that he almost always just accepts his rolls. I, on the other hand, look at dice as these dumb objects that you can always count on to let you down. I would definitely classify him primarily as a Gamist (followed closely by Simulationist) while I am more of a Narrativist.[/quote']

 

As someone who identifies as almost entirely Simulationist, I would argue that these sorts of meta-game result modification tools are most likely to be embraced by Narritivists (who can use them to steer the story the way they want it to go), Gamists will likely appreciate them for different reasons (notably second chances when they're "losing"), and Simulationists will find them artificial and jarring (for the reasons I listed in my first reply). But again, just my GNS-based two cents.

[The Main Man]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

As someone who identifies as almost entirely Simulationist' date=' I would argue that these sorts of meta-game result modification tools are most likely to be embraced by Narritivists (who can use them to steer the story the way they want it to go), Gamists will likely appreciate them for different reasons (notably second chances when they're "losing"), and Simulationists will find them artificial and jarring (for the reasons I listed in my first reply). But again, just my GNS-based two cents.[/quote']

 

I can see that, though the more I think about it, the more I can see any side of it liking or disliking the mechanic for a variety of different reasons.

 

As someone who primarily identifies as Narrativist, I will say that I don't hate dice; I'm just "that guy" who can come up with good plans/strategies and then gets screwed by the dice with frightening regularity. A shame too, as I have a friend who is nearly the opposite; not particularly good planner or strategist, but the dice - any dice - like him more often than not. So, basically, I use HAPs primarily to nudge past BS, and also because failure is rarely made interesting in my group; a GMing skill I think I strive for, but have much room for improvement. Hm, sounds like another thread...

[The Main Man]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

Well, MainMan, this is ENTIRELY my opinion on the matter and should not be in any way construed as an attack against you or your playstyle, but it would seem your system to me is really overcomplicated and would likely create a whole new metagame based around scoring HAPs for your character. This would also have the result of making skill roll bonuses much less useful (as if its REALLY important that you make it you will always have a few HAPs sitting around to burn.) Also, having lots of ways to "loose" HAP's is probably a bad idea in my opinion. That encourages players to spend them up (since if they don't have any they can't loose any).

 

My preferred method (STRICTLY my opinion of course) is that everyone gets a relatively equal pool at the start (dice roll with reroll or modifiers or such.) I will also award them occasionally for good roleplaying. As a guideline I would reward something like this:

+1 HAP for great roleplaying which enhances the game and makes it more fun for everyone

+2 if you are roleplaying a "negative" applied to your character well (Ever see a character with "Cowardly" who runs right into fray right off the bat every time? Ugh.) This one is situational and likely to only be awarded at most once per session (possibly even post session for next time if it becomes an issue "Im cowardly this time to get my bonus HAP, but now Ill act normal since I have them."

+1 for truly Heroic actions that lead to success

 

And the only way to loose them is to forget that these are "HEROIC Action Points." If you are trying to game the system, thats not heroic. If your killing off people in a game where that's not appropriate, thats not heroic. If you are shooting a teammate in the back because you had a fight in RL and want to get even in game, that's not heroic. Heroic Action Points are for Heroic Characters only. And frankly if I take them away from you that should be a warning that next step is asking you to leave (IE I would only do it under extreme circumstances). Of course, many of these may not apply in certain tones/genres of games, but you get the drift.

 

Also, they are wiped out at the end of every adventure. The idea is that they are precious, using them early should be a major consideration. Until you get to the final boss fight. Then its time to "HERO UP!" and kick some ass.

 

As for how to spend them: (all apply to YOUR rolls only)

1 point to modify any one dice roll by +/-1 (max 3) (effect roll, success roll, whatever) done AFTER the roll (so you know your going to get your money's worth)

3 points to reroll any one dice roll (the entire roll, not part of it. If you want to reroll your 18d6 Move Through you gotta reroll all 18 dice, no keeping the good ones)

1 point to increase your defense vs a single attack by one point (usually to turn Stuns into "almost stuns" but the only way for a HERO to affect the other guys rolls. Note I would not normally allow this to be used for DCV/DMCV)

2 points to use a "signature attack" (something I am toying with, i need to playtest it some. Basically an attack that gets around normal limits of the game)

1 point to use a power skill to use a power in a "SFX only" related way (IE it bears no resemblance to the power you have with that SFX) i.e. I have a EB defined as Electrical Blast, and I want to move through power lines (transforming your body to electricity has nothing to do with shooting lightning bolts out of your hands, they are just the same SFX). All other normal "Power Tricks" rules apply (ie only once, no repeats, etc.) Also generally not useable for attacks.

 

 

All Points: And possibly "all points" to not "die" due to a lucky dice roll on a villains part. If used for this may take a portion of points out of the next session as well (so everyone doesn't just horde that last point "just in case".)

 

 

Any of the random stuff happens sort of thing I personally feel is way to far into LUCK's bailiwick and so I really don't like allowing using them for that.

 

Yeah, that's what I'm realizing, and that's why I turn to HG for my latest wacky ideas before unleashing then on my group. I plan to look into your simpler, more subjective approach to rewards.

 

As far as "Signature Moves," I'll send you a PM to address it. I run a Dragonball HERO campaign which deals with a similar concept, but that topic is not appropriate to this thread IMO.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

My preferred method (STRICTLY my opinion of course) is that everyone gets a relatively equal pool at the start (dice roll with reroll or modifiers or such.)

 

If the goal is a relatively equal pool, why not just give everyone a flat number. Why do dice need to be involved at all? Funny...Hero is one of the first point build games I can recall running across, when every other game was "roll 3d6/d%/whatever for your stats". Makes me wonder why HAP are random at the outset. "Everyone gets 7" would work just as well.

 

I will also award them occasionally for good roleplaying. As a guideline I would reward something like this:

+1 HAP for great roleplaying which enhances the game and makes it more fun for everyone

+2 if you are roleplaying a "negative" applied to your character well (Ever see a character with "Cowardly" who runs right into fray right off the bat every time? Ugh.) This one is situational and likely to only be awarded at most once per session (possibly even post session for next time if it becomes an issue "Im cowardly this time to get my bonus HAP, but now Ill act normal since I have them."

 

OK, I think I get it - I should take negatives that are only likely to come up once or twice per session, then, so you can role play appropriately and get your bonus without being overly disadvantaged. Negatives that come up more frequently will disadvantage me more for the same HAP. So rather than one really frequent drawback that comes up all the time, pick three lower point drawbacks that will only be a problem once or twice in a session.

 

+1 for truly Heroic actions that lead to success

 

Define "success". And is heroism only in existence when that heroism is successful? I should strive to be heroic only when the odds are in my favour?

 

And the only way to loose them is to forget that these are "HEROIC Action Points." If you are trying to game the system' date=' thats not heroic. If your killing off people in a game where that's not appropriate, thats not heroic. If you are shooting a teammate in the back because you had a fight in RL and want to get even in game, that's not heroic. Heroic Action Points are for Heroic Characters only. And frankly if I take them away from you that should be a warning that next step is asking you to leave (IE I would only do it under extreme circumstances). Of course, many of these may not apply in certain tones/genres of games, but you get the drift.[/quote']

 

I like linking HAP to the genre and tone, actually. I'm leaning similar to Main Man to the idea that HAP are awarded, but not taken away. Of course, a bonus given to all but one character is essentially the same as a penalty to that one character. "Everyone gets 10 HAP except Tony, who gets 7" is the same end result whether called a 3 HAP bonus to everyone but Tony or a 3 HAP penalty to Tony.

 

Also' date=' they are wiped out at the end of every adventure. The idea is that they are precious, using them early should be a major consideration. Until you get to the final boss fight. Then its time to "HERO UP!" and kick some ass.[/quote']

 

Also, much less benefit being heroic, role playing well, letting your disad's apply, etc. at that time, since any HAP you may be rewarded with are just going to vanish after this scene ends. I like Main Man's suggestion that your HAP are restored at the start of the next [session/scenario/arc/what have you] so you move forward with the greater of what you finished the last game session with or your restored starting number. The hording risk is certainly there, of course.

 

As for how to spend them: (all apply to YOUR rolls only)

1 point to modify any one dice roll by +/-1 (max 3) (effect roll, success roll, whatever) done AFTER the roll (so you know your going to get your money's worth)

3 points to reroll any one dice roll (the entire roll, not part of it. If you want to reroll your 18d6 Move Through you gotta reroll all 18 dice, no keeping the good ones)

 

3 points to re-roll an 18 sounds like a way better deal than 3 points to adjust it to a 15. Although 1 point to change my Hit Location roll from 6 to 5 sounds like a terrific deal. Given your comments about "knowing exactly what you will get", I would have expected to see a less expensive option for modifying the roll before it is made (eg. I will spend 2 HAP on this roll provides, perhaps, a 4 point bonus - which may be wasted if it would have succeeded anyway, or if it fails by 5 or more). Marvel Supers had the option of saying "I will spend whatever it takes" (which sounds pretty heroic), which meant you spent whatever it took to succeed, with a small charge if you succeeded without any spending, or spending it all would still not succeed. That could be worth modelling (maybe you spend 1 HAP minimum on such a declaration).

 

1 point to increase your defense vs a single attack by one point (usually to turn Stuns into "almost stuns" but the only way for a HERO to affect the other guys rolls. Note I would not normally allow this to be used for DCV/DMCV)

 

So run someone with high defenses, because you will be allowed to use HAP to mitigate lucky shots where the high DCV guy will not. He's unlikely to have the extra 10+ HAP to cover the difference in Brick and Martial Artist defenses anyway.

 

2 points to use a "signature attack" (something I am toying with' date=' i need to playtest it some. Basically an attack that gets around normal limits of the game)[/quote']

 

Like, say, +10 or +15 defenses (instead of spending 10 or 15 to bump my defenses against that Stunning hit). I keep coming back to that one - maybe 2 or 3 HAP to negate being Stunned, without negating any damage, would feel better.

 

1 point to use a power skill to use a power in a "SFX only" related way (IE it bears no resemblance to the power you have with that SFX) i.e. I have a EB defined as Electrical Blast' date=' and I want to move through power lines (transforming your body to electricity has nothing to do with shooting lightning bolts out of your hands, they are just the same SFX). All other normal "Power Tricks" rules apply (ie only once, no repeats, etc.) Also generally not useable for attacks. [/quote']

 

So I can get out of the battle by traveling through the electrical lines, but I can't supercharge the air around a desolid foe? IOW, why not attacks? Can I supercharge the ions in the air to create an opposing magnetic field that prevents debris from killing innocent bystanders, or is that TK/Barrier power denied because it's an attack power?

 

All Points: And possibly "all points" to not "die" due to a lucky dice roll on a villains part. If used for this may take a portion of points out of the next session as well (so everyone doesn't just horde that last point "just in case".)

 

I'd say I'm not averse to PC's cheating death in general. Sucks if some mook gets a lucky roll in the first encounter of the game. If HAP can be used to avoid a killing blow, what about a KO blow? Perhaps using HAP to reduce the level on the Recovery chart would be a good approach here.

 

The key here is that the PC will accept that they are going to bear some burden as a result of the Complication. Calling their DNPC girlfriend would not give them any HAPs - the DNPC must be in danger and thus pose a problem/dilemma for the PC.

 

But if I don't call, I'm in hot water with my DNPC, and if I do, I'm late for the meeting (and maybe a surprise ambush that happens at the meeting), so it's a problem, isn't it?

 

Bumping into a Hunted is not good enough - Doctor Destroyer stopping by for a milkshake while belittling the PC wouldn't net any points. Doctor Destroyer showing up to punch the PC in the mouth' date=' however, would give them points.[/quote']

 

To make the example a bit more serious, what if Dr. D is belittling the character through the media, which results in greater difficulties interacting with NPC's. A quick combat before the scenario starts, and after which Our Hero recovers any lost STUN and END and carries on as if nothing happens seems far less complicating. Make a good Hunted and NPC - you want the GM to use him lots so you get the HAP. There will be adversaries and bystanders in every game, why not maximize the ones that give you an advantage, rather than rescuing Nameless NPC #362 from Random Villain #743.

 

You do bring up a good point about frequency versus severity being lopsided. Perhaps it should be strictly based on severity - how much it actually affects the PC. Its frequency just helps it pop up more or less. If a PC wants a very frequent and very severe complication then they need to get ready for their character to suffer greatly for it and very often. That said' date=' I'd have to consider what constitutes a minor, moderate, or major severity in the first place; some are more obvious than others.[/quote']

 

Maybe I want a much less severe, much more frequent complication so I get a few points without huge drawbacks. Do I want combat complications (pretty much guaranteed to come up) or social/interaction complications (where I need to rely on the GM using my NPC or Hunted rather than someone else's, or his own NPC's)?

 

I would say that could be a result if a player so chooses' date=' which thus results in a net zero effect - they let some Complications affect them, they negate others. It's their choice, but they'd hardly get the best use of them that way. I think the fact they could temporarily buy off Complications one instance at a time can serve to curb the frequency problem you observed above. On the other hand, perhaps this usage of HAPs could be based on frequency just as the other is based on severity. The more frequent the complication, the fewer HAPs it takes to negate it - after all, it will happen again sooner than the others.[/quote']

 

Seems most would gladly accept failed Activation Rolls in mook fights to be able to override the one or two failed rolls in a more critical encounter. "My web shooters only run out of fluid when I fight muggers and bank robbers - they stay fully charged when the Green Goblin shows up!"

 

1-2 points is a small condolence and only really adds up if your group is regularly large and (counterintuitively) regularly absent. In my group of 8 people' date=' if it came down to 1 GM and 1 Player, that player would get +12 HAPs for that game. That's six absent players; I dunno about that being a good long-term plan.[/quote']

 

If there is one player absent, the other 6 get 2 HAP each, for 12 in total for that game for only one absent player.

 

 

Second' date=' if my teammates regularly get killed/knocked out, then they most likely will catch on to my benefitting from it and thus make tougher characters. It's no fun being knocked out/dead. It's self-regulating if you ask me.[/quote']

 

It's also part of the game. And with your model, way better than being hopelessly entangled, mind controlled or otherwise removed from the fight with no HAP reward.

 

That is an interesting abuse of the system that I have yet to encounter. I'll have to think about that one. That said' date=' as usual, it needs to be relevant; meaningful; substantial. Just because one has Healing or Regeneration doesn't mean they can soak up HAPs because of BODY damage from friendly fire. One of those "I see through your tricks" kind of things any good GM is on the look out for anyway.[/quote']

 

See, you call it "an abuse of the system", however the first or second character I wrote up when 6e came out was designed around very low defenses, offset by some damage reduction, but very high STUN, BOD and REC, and per phase Regeneration from the APG. Thinking on it, he's also a shapeshifter with a tendency to shift randomly if he takes certain levels of BOD damage, so there's more HAP from that disadvantage. He wasn't built to take advantage of the HAP system, but it seems like he'd be an HAP machine under your model. I recall a rather old character who had fairly low STUN and a small Healing power every phase he was KO'd who would get a lot more "being KO'd" HAP's than the average character. His design was to be easy to KO, but hard to keep KO'd. A self-resurrector I ran for some time also comes to mind (and why have the Resurrection power if you aren't ever going to get killed so you can use it?)

 

Even in a Fantasy game, some per hour Regen ("I heal quickly") rather than higher rDEF would provide a significant HAP advantage. That's actually my Pulp Hero character - everyone else has rDEF, but he doesn't (although he's picking a bit up).

 

Bottom line - it seems some character concepts (probably ones you don't see all that often) would get a lot of HAP's just by being themselves. Do those concepts get banned because they're especially HAP-effective? Will you ban good role players who creatively use genre tropes, and characters with complications that generate more HAP's at better times in the scenarios as well? If there's an issue, I think it's an issue with the system more than with the characters (though I may be biased, in part due to the number of characters which quickly jump to mind).

 

I use it as a baseline. A player regains up to that amount every game within the same story arc. If they have more' date=' then they start with what they had at the end of the last game.[/quote']

 

I like that better than "build a whole bunch up in the final arc, then they all go away". "Sorry, Tony, the enemy is now defeated, so those extra HAP you got for piloting the missile into space and almost dying on re-entry just fade away before you get any chance to use them." Those carry over, and the fellow who used all of his to defeat the enemy, save bystanders and/or teammates get their starting allotment back - seems a lot better result to me.

 

I have thought about ways to translate excess HAPs into bonus CP at the end of story arcs in a way similar to Karma from Marvel Super Heroes' date=' but I have nothing substantial that I think even begins to work right. Besides, there's that whole "remove CP incentive" motive I listed above.[/quote']

 

I'd avoid that for the exact reason you note.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

To the gamists: it seems to me that HAP's and similar can be viewed as simply another scarce resource to be used to best effect. If HAP's are given out, but not used, my bias would be to make the game more difficult so HAP use becomes essential for success. They're a resource, just like charges, skill levels, etc.

[psyber624]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

Okay, Fair warning, likely to be a really long post, so I am going to spoiler my direct responses to Hugh for those that don't care to keep up with the debate, and just leave my general comments here.

 

One thing his commentary did help me to understand is that I have different directives in mind when GMing Character Creation and Game Running. For Character Creation my main directive tends to be "fair and balanced" which is why I tend to dislike some of the more powerful game constructs in HERO (Multipowers, Multiform, Duplication, etc.). They can create really interesting unique builds, but they are also really easily abused. When running the game, however, my directive tends to be more on having fun and telling a story. So, for instance, I tend to use systems like HAP's to encourage things that I believe will make the game more enjoyable. Definitely not everyones favorite, but its what works for me. And yeah, it means that "Mr Roleplayer" may get more HAP's than "the guy who just rolls dice" but that is intentional. Mr. Dice is welcome to play in my game, but I honestly feel he doesn't contribute as much as Mr. Roleplayer (and personally hope that the incentive of HAP's might encourage him to do so.) Of course, if he honestly despises roleplaying then my gaming table probably isn't the best place for him, but that doesn't mean he isn't welcome there. (Only if he is actually disruptive to the roleplaying would that happen. )

 

Okay, that kind of got off topic but just some thoughts I had while reading Hugh's counter arguments. On to specifics.

 

1. Random Number of HAPs: Flat number is always an option. As is a system like (d6+6) so that everyone gets at least a certain number but can get more with luck. My main intention is to prevent someone from getting so few that they can never get ANY benefit. What can I say, I like the potential for a really lucky roll (it can start things off on a positive note) while trying to ensure that none of my players feel "dice screwed" by something like this (which can set a negative tone for that player) especially as this will last for most of an adventure. However you are right that it doesn't really gel with the general balanced creation system of HERO so the flat may be more appropriate for something like this with long reaching effects.

 

2. Gaming the system: I believe you misunderstand. First of all your "negatives" will come up solely based upon your point values spent in them (for the most part). And like I stated this would probably be an award I would give for "start of next session" to prevent exactly what you described (roleplaying only one instance of a negative for the points.) I believe that the negatives we apply to our characters are JUST AS IMPORTANT in defining our characters as the positives but due to the "game" nature of the system there is a definite tendency to try and downplay the negative aspects. (Not universal by any means). This reward is more about using the drawbacks you select for your character in a convincing fashion to portray and reflect a more complete picture of who your character is. And honestly if it felt like you were trying to "game" the system I would be less likely to reward them (I would definitely classify myself as a Narativist GM in this situation.)

 

3. Heroic Success Reward: Your right about the Heroic success one. I agree with your points. However, there is something about the feeling of a truly heroic action that leads to success and saves the day that just feels like it deserves a reward to me. Jumping out from behind cover under a hail of bullets to pull your stunned friend out of the line of fire. Grabbing the bomb and flying off into space with it ticking down, racing against time to get it out of range before it detonates. These are hallmarks of the genre in general and make for really great scenes. As far as failure goes, well, truly heroic acts that result in failure would usually result in at best a posthumous reward anyway so.....

 

4. Penalty HAPs: I understand the argument where "a bonus to one is a penalty to everyone else" with one caveat, everyone can earn these bonuses. I don't like penalties to HAP's for three reasons.

A. The concept of "penalizing" a PC is one that I feel GM's should avoid as much as possible. Yes you can argue rewarding is penalizing but that is a viewpoint that leads to all kinds of problems. (Read Terry Goodkind's "Sword of Truth" series for some really excellent commentary on that viewpoint and the problems it creates, esp. the book Faith of the Fallen).

B. It can easily lead to confrontations between the penalized player and the GM (Which is why in my examples I mentioned it as only occuring when I felt a confrontation was needed.)

C. It undermines the incentive structure of HAP's. If I can take them away then people are encouraged to spend them before that can happen (as if they don't have any they don't loose any) and if I take it to the negatives then this totally destroys the incentive nature of HAP's. The only reason to use a penalty system is to discourage a style of play. If you allow them to go to negatives then once a player is in the negatives they really have no incentive to ever try to gain HAP's and no reason not to play in a way that is being penalized unless you add some sort of penalty for being in negative HAP (which will definitely lead to B.)

 

5. Wiping HAPs: Plain and simple not wiping HAPs leads to hoarding. If you have an issue with HAPs being wiped then that means you are wanting to carry them over from session to session and build up a big pool of them. Also note that generally speaking I would not be "tossing around" HAPs left and right in a HERO version of "Monty Hall" gaming. Gaining more than 1-2 HAPs per session would be REALLY rare. And the general structure would also assume an Adventure cycle of 1-3 sessions per adventure (any more than that and I would increase the HAP total at the beginning, or possibly give a "mid adventure" reward of HAPs to all players if an adventure was running long enough. The main thing is that not wiping HAPs actually can lead to them being "less" special. If you don't wipe HAPs then pools can build up if players are having a good string, and they then NEVER have to worry about any possibility of failure as they have a huge pool to pull from. My goal with HAPs is to have players look at them as a precious resource. Spending HAPs early should be done with caution (they aren't meant to be used willy nilly). But on the final Boss you know they are about to expire anyway so pour them on. (Note: This is one of the main reasons that I would use them for "signature moves". My plan is to design bosses that will be tricky to take down with normal AP cap attacks (possible, but slow and dangerous). Having points to spend on your unique attacks at the end makes the boss much easier. This is very similar to the design of many video games out there (side scrolling shooters especially). Doesn't mean it will necessarily translate well of course, that's why I stated I still need to playtest them.)

 

6. Spending Points: Your right, it is cheaper. That's sort of intentional. 3 points is the cap on adjusting rolls, so 3 points also allows you a reroll if that's not enough to give you the success. I had thought about an "auto success" option but that leads to all kinds of problems with players doing things that could NEVER realistically succeed and knowing they would work (and as it is, with the 3=automatic success rule they can still try ANYTHING really and succeed on 6-) And while I don't use hit locations personally I don't really see a problem with it (in fact some abilities allow you do to that already.) If it proved to be too powerful I might not allow HAPs to be used for that (or would adjust the cost appropriately.) The problem with the "spend before rolling option" is that the two REALLY don't work well together. It is almost NEVER a good idea to spend fewer points in case a roll fails than it is to wait and only spend them if you actually fail. Especially since my goals would be that most players would see 10-15 HAPs per adventure. So I have to pick one option over the other. If you have tons of points to spend, and its easy to get more the spend before system becomes more tenable. If you have fewer points to spend you are unlikely to spend them on rolls at all if there are other options because they are too likely to be wasted. I prefer a system where you don't waste a limited amount of points, so I use the after approach.

 

7. Defense Spending: Umm, well if that's your point it is generally true all the time. HAP rules really don't change that. The Brick can use points to turn something that barely stuns him into a non-stun. The MA can do exactly the same. In both cases a few points one way or the other is all they can spend. It may be more useful to one than the other, depending on caps and such (In some campaigns the Brick will NEVER get stunned, even by a lucky shot because he is built to be practically unstunnable, so this is worthless to him, where the MA will get stunned from time to time, meaning that a portion of the times a few points might prevent the stun. In other campaigns MA's will basically get stunned if they get hit PERIOD, and no amount of points will protect them, whereas the Brick only gets stunned on occasion, and a few points will be useful to save him.) The problem with using it with DCV is that it allows you to COMPLETELY NEGATE an attack, frequently by only using a couple of points, which I feel is too powerful. Changing the points around to make it so that you "don't get stunned" is an option, but looses some of the other corner cases and side effects that this way provides (preventing linked affects from hurting you, preventing KO or even Dying if the roll was close, reducing a Mental or Power Def based attack from achieving a certain effect, etc.) I guess nothing wrong with having an absolute entry for stun as well "3 points to prevent stunning" or the like.

 

8. Signature Attacks: See point 5. Generally speaking a signature attack would be just that, an attack. Although I also liked the idea presented about creating abilities that required HAPs to work and your +10/+15 point defense would definitely be an option for something like that. However, I would leave the point cost up to the players (as it would determine the limitation value. I am thinking something like (-1/2) per HAP required, but this would definitely need testing.)

 

9. Power Skill: Actually, supercharging the air around a Desolid Foe wouldn't require HAPs as that is, in my opinion, within the normal realm of a "power trick". Spending HAPs doesn't replace power tricks, it expands on them (allowing you to do things I wouldn't allow a normal power trick use to do.) The not attacks thing generally applies to not trying to use a non-attack power to create some oddball type of attack. This is generally due to balance considerations and not logical considerations. In my games, pretty much any use of an attack power to simulate different advantages on that attack power would fall under general power skill uses (in your example you added "affects desolid" to your attack, perfectly legal.) Any cases of this which I feel are not appropriate are going to be based upon balance considerations honestly and I doubt that spending HAPs would make me change my mind about them. (Honestly can't think of specific examples right now but I am just one person. I am sure that things could occur.)

 

10. All Points: there are many options available to help prevent PC death. I would probably allow a PC to spend all points to prevent any specific negative occurance they wished, however all points would generally mean all BASE points, and is the only thing that could "borrow" points from the next adventure. So if using a flat amount or a dice based amount, i would generally require them to spend the average and if they already spent too many they could "borrow" some from next time. Yes, this does pose a problem if this is a one shot encounter or the like, so might need some modification.

 

[bigbywolfe]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

Okay, Fair warning, likely to be a really long post, so I am going to spoiler my direct responses to Hugh for those that don't care to keep up with the debate, and just leave my general comments here.

 

One thing his commentary did help me to understand is that I have different directives in mind when GMing Character Creation and Game Running. For Character Creation my main directive tends to be "fair and balanced" which is why I tend to dislike some of the more powerful game constructs in HERO (Multipowers, Multiform, Duplication, etc.). They can create really interesting unique builds, but they are also really easily abused. When running the game, however, my directive tends to be more on having fun and telling a story. So, for instance, I tend to use systems like HAP's to encourage things that I believe will make the game more enjoyable. Definitely not everyones favorite, but its what works for me. And yeah, it means that "Mr Roleplayer" may get more HAP's than "the guy who just rolls dice" but that is intentional. Mr. Dice is welcome to play in my game, but I honestly feel he doesn't contribute as much as Mr. Roleplayer (and personally hope that the incentive of HAP's might encourage him to do so.) Of course, if he honestly despises roleplaying then my gaming table probably isn't the best place for him, but that doesn't mean he isn't welcome there. (Only if he is actually disruptive to the roleplaying would that happen. )

 

What if he just isn't as good at it?

[The Main Man]

Re: HAP: How to use them

 

I think effort should count at least as much as ability. A poor roleplayer deserves credit for at least trying. Besides, I'm sure we all sucked at it when we first got into the hobby. Reward effort; make the quality be its own reward.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter. That said though, it's up to the GM what constitutes effort.