Unusual Brick trick...

[Bloodstone]

I'm thinking about designing some tricks for my new Brick character. However, looking through UNTIL, I didn't quite see what I had in mind, so I figured it was time to ask the forum again.

 

My brick is a 9 foot tall demon looking thing with wings. I figure he probably has about a 30' wingspan, so when he has them open I imagine he can cover two adjacent hexes on either side of his body. He's also proven that he is quite bullet proof and I imagine this supernatural resiliance extending to his wings.

 

I was thinking a neat trick might be that he can shield others behind his bullet proof wings. I think Archangle used to do this kind of thing back when he had the metal wings. He could possibly use it to shield people from explosions and energy blasts too, as his ED is just as good as his PD.

 

What I haven't figured out yet is how best to do this

 

Would Missile Deflection for all Ranged attacks (20), at a Range (+1) do the trick?

 

Or would a 5 hex long, 2 hex high Hardened, Opaque 20 PD/ED Force Wall, centered on the character and with the Feedback limitation be a better way to work things, since obviously if his wings get damaged it would hurt him too?

 

Perhaps some combination of the two built into a "Wings" multipower along with the characters Flight? The character cannot fly and protect people at the same time, so how could I best represent that?

 

Also, what would be some appropriate limitations? Obviously if I use Missile Deflection, it has to be at a range of no greater then 2 hexes away, but the lesser (+1/2) advantage only works for adjacent allies. Would increasing that by one hex distance be worth +3/4, instead of adding in the full +1?

 

If I use Force Wall and take the Restricted Shape limitation, does that mean I have to always form the wall in the same shape AND the same size, or can I alter the size (a three hex wall centered on the character, for example, if they are in a tight space) In regards to the placement of the wall, I think I would have to make it always appear behind the character, since otherwise the defense it provides would add to his own Armor. However, even putting it behind him would effectivly double his PD/ED if anyone tried to shot the character in the back....hmm, I see a self only limitation for force wall...is there an "others only" type limitation somewhere? Finally, if I go with force wall, how do I represent the fact that the demon can't bring the wall back up (or fly) until his wings heal, bearing in mind my character can Regenerate? Would some kind of recoverable charges work best for this, or something else?

 

Man, that was far more complicated then I had initially planned...

[BNakagawa]

I have a similar character who does the same thing, but is smaller. I just use enough growth to fill a hex, stand in front of the protectee and take all incoming hits. (that way you don't have to worry about missing missile deflection rolls or funky attacks blowing through your force wall)

 

A roughly 5" wingspan complicates things a bit. If you're doing the force wall, then just buy enough hexsides for 5". If you're looking for missile deflection, then maybe +3/4 would be good for 2" reach instead of the 1/2 for 1".

 

If you're willing to take the hits, maybe you can buy some limited growth to fill the hexes completely. No rolls required.

 

$0.02

[JeffreyWKramer]

I think I would tend toward buying it as Missile Deflection for All, at Range, Limited Range (no more than 2" away, +3/4). You may also consider putting this in a Multipower with the character's Flight, purchasing both with an "u" slot, to reflect that the character can't Fly and Deflect Missiles at the same time. Both Powers would get the Restrainable Limitation which would reduce the cost of each slot and the MP base. I suggest the MP because 1) it is conceptually logical, and 2) it saves points.

 

Your character's sounding cooler and cooler, Bloodstone.

[CrosshairCollie]

Another possible option might be to buy a Force Wall with Feedback (assuming he has nerve endings in his wings), and Opaque to Sight, No Range, with limitations about its maximum size ... could form a wall for shielding others, you could possibly wrap the wings around someone you're in HTH combat with so they couldn't run away, since it blocks sight it could even provide some cover against mentalists ...

[austenandrews]

CC covered everything I was going to say. I don't care for Missile Deflection in this case because it's OCV based, whereas giant wings are essentially a wall. With Force Wall, if a large or unusual attack knocks it down, you can attribute it to the character flinching or the wing simply being knocked aside in addition to simply piercing the membrane.

 

I second JWK's analysis of the Multipower. And you could add more tricks to the MP later on, like generating gusts of wind, etc.

 

-AA

[Bloodstone]

Well, you all have definitly convinced me to take a wing multipower, but I'm still not sure how I want to work the "wing shield" trick.

 

With Force Wall, if a large or unusual attack knocks it down, you can attribute it to the character flinching or the wing simply being knocked aside in addition to simply piercing the membrane.

 

**slaps forehaed for not thinking of this on his own** Thanks, that makes sense.

 

I will say, missile deflection is a hell of a lot less expensive in terms of active points, thus making the multipower more affordable. But I think the Force Wall may be closer to what I am looking for in terms of overall effect...

 

still not sure what to do yet... I have to mess with the numbers some more...

[JeffreyWKramer]

Yeah, it's a toss-up in terms of cost/effects balance.

 

Some aspects of Force Wall make definitely make sense for this construct, including the "blocks sight" adder. At the same time, it's a fairly expensive way to do it. If you do go with Force Wall, I'd consider the "Feedback" suggestion, and in any case would definitely define the Force Wall falling as the wing being pushed aside or flinching away from the attack, rather than being torn or such.

 

Also, think of it this way - do you see the Demon's wings as being able to block a blow from a big strong guy as well as intercept a ranged attack? If so, Force Wall is definitely the way to go - it will likely be a pretty weak Force Wall (wings aren't that hard to push out of the way), but it will still waste (or at least reduce) someone's attack getting through. If you don't see the wings keeping a brick away, then I'd go with Missile Deflection.

 

Really, there isnt a "wrong" way to do this one. Heck, if you're gonna do it as a Multipower, why not do it *both* ways? A three-slot Multipower (Flight, Force Wall and Missile Deflection, all "u"), all with the Restrainable Limitation, isn't much more expensive than a two-slot one. It could be:

 

27 DEMON WINGS Multipower, 40 point Base,

Restrainable (-1/2)

3u 1) 20" Flight, Restrainable (-1/2) = 4 END

3u 2) Missile Deflection vs. All Ranged, At Limited

Range (+3/4), Restrainable (-1/2)+2 to OCV

2u 3) Force Wall, 4/4, 5" Hexes total, Opaque to Sight

Group, Restrainable (-1/2), No Range (-1/2).

4 END

 

Total Cost: 35

 

The Force Wall above is pretty wimpy, but unless an opponent is doing a Move By, Move Thru or some Martial Maneuver with the FMove element, it will still prevent the opponent from getting through the wall and attacking in HTH on the same phase - and even if they do get through, they're going to be at OCV 0 unless either a) they have a targeting sense other than sight, or they'd already launched their attack before you put the Force Wall up (via Aborted action or such).

 

If you were trying to defend against ranged attacks that phase, you'd naturally use the wings to Missile Deflect rather than set up a wall.

 

Doing it this way, you can also use the wings to restrain someone within HTH range - it takes only a 2" Force Wall to surround an opponent.

[Talon]

Why not Armor, UBO? It's not like the character himself is /totally/ immune to damage, and you can attribute the damage that gets through to buffeting/knockback/whatever.

[Col. Orange]

"AoE Line" naked advantage on PD/ED?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Originally posted by Col. Orange

"AoE Line" naked advantage on PD/ED?

 

It is not generally kosher to buy Defense Powers and apply Area Effect in order to have them provide defenses to others - that's what Usable By Others is for. There are rare exceptions that can be okay as mandated by special effects - the "Air Globe" Life Support from USPDB is an example - but they are the exception to the rule, as noted in the description of that power construct.

 

Talon's "Armor" concept is a legitimate way to do this effect, though.

 

One of the cool things about HERO is that there are often multiple ways to mimic any given effect, and none of them is necessarily "right." One person might make an Acid Power as RKA Penetrating (as Steve does in USPDB), another might go for the deadlier (but more expensive) route of RKA, NND, Does Body - and either way can be okay, to mimic the effects of different types of acid.

[Farkling]

Extra Limbs - Wings, No fine manipulation. 1 Hex Area?

 

3" Stretching - Restrainable - Wings. No Noncombat Stretching, Wings only. This allows him to "grab" multiple people.

(Heh, now he can bop people with them too)

 

Force Field, Protects Carried, Only protects carried (defense caps!), Concentrate 1/2 DCV Throughout, Restrains Wings.

 

The character is already 9 feet tall, he should have a 1.5 - 2 Hex reach already if I remember the Growth table correctly.

 

Somebody want to run those numbers?

[Vondy]

Weird thought:

 

could this be done with an inherent stretching power and extra limbs? His wings are a part of himself, and have his defenses?

[Bloodstone]

Very interesting thoughts.

 

I kind of like that stretching idea.

 

I actually already bought it as inherent and always on to give the chatracter extra reach for his hand to hand attacks (as was suggested on p86 of FRED). Never thought to extend it to his wings for defensive purposes though...

 

Now if I understand your premise, does the demon have to actually wrap people up in his wings to protect them with this construct?

 

I'll run the numbers on that and post the results in a little bit.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by D-Man

Weird thought:

 

could this be done with an inherent stretching power and extra limbs? His wings are a part of himself, and have his defenses?

 

Not a bad idea and good for a "one-off" situation/power stunt, but if he routinely wants to shield people I think conceptually you have to buy some sort of defensive power.

 

Of course you raise a good question - now HERO does not require you to buy growing if you are big. Let's say I have a big character, then, sort of like this guy with the wingspan. Anytime I can cover a hex with someone in it, they could get full benefit of my defenses, essentially.

 

I don't think this is kosher if intended for regular use.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by zornwil

Not a bad idea and good for a "one-off" situation/power stunt, but if he routinely wants to shield people I think conceptually you have to buy some sort of defensive power.

 

Of course you raise a good question - now HERO does not require you to buy growing if you are big. Let's say I have a big character, then, sort of like this guy with the wingspan. Anytime I can cover a hex with someone in it, they could get full benefit of my defenses, essentially.

 

I don't think this is kosher if intended for regular use.

 

Lets remove the wings from the equation and just concentrate on a brick with growth:

 

So if a brick wants to stand in front of his friends and "take fire" he has to pay extra points to do so? His own body and defenses aren't sufficient? I disagree. At the very worst he constitutes cover (a dcv penalty to hit them) and at best he constitutes a human shield (taking damage for them). It isn't a power - its getting shot.

 

If you insist the brick purchase it as a power (because he can't use his own body as a solid object on a regular basis (whatever)) then what happens when the missile deflection or force wall you built fails? Does it just pass right through him, causing him no damage, and hit the people he was trying to protect? Sounds a bit fishy to me.

 

I think the brick would then get hit with the attack, which would be applied to his defenses, just like anyone else who was being shot at through a force wall or an application of missile deflection. This would result in an insanely high-defense brick. I think the regular high defense brick without such powers is perfectly entitled to "take one for the team". If the villains don't like it they can flank him, bounce shots off the pavement between his legs, or whatnot.

 

This brings us back to wings - if the character is taking the damage for other people: why should they have to buy anything beyond growth or streching to do so?

 

In essence what I'm saying is this: the attack has to pass between whatever is between it and its target, be it a wall, a car, or a brick.

[dugfromthearth]

other things for a wings multipower

 

I recommend an AOE tk "wind" with some limitations so he can beat his wings and push small things aside

 

a PRE bonus might be good for stretching up his wings

 

AOE with STR (maybe not full str) for wing bashes

[pinecone]

I once did an angel type char that had a "Wings" Multi

Multi( )

u Flight: Restrainable

u Gliding

u Armor : usable by others

I think the armor was around +9 def (it was a small multi) the armor was wrapping his wings around others, obviously he could not fly or glide while doing this...I remember it working just great...I don't remember if I used muliple persons or AE 1 hex on the armor though......

[zornwil]

Originally posted by D-Man

Lets remove the wings from the equation and just concentrate on a brick with growth:

 

So if a brick wants to stand in front of his friends and "take fire" he has to pay extra points to do so? His own body and defenses aren't sufficient? I disagree. At the very worst he constitutes cover (a dcv penalty to hit them) and at best he constitutes a human shield (taking damage for them). It isn't a power - its getting shot.

 

If you insist the brick purchase it as a power (because he can't use his own body as a solid object on a regular basis (whatever)) then what happens when the missile deflection or force wall you built fails? Does it just pass right through him, causing him no damage, and hit the people he was trying to protect? Sounds a bit fishy to me.

 

I think the brick would then get hit with the attack, which would be applied to his defenses, just like anyone else who was being shot at through a force wall or an application of missile deflection. This would result in an insanely high-defense brick. I think the regular high defense brick without such powers is perfectly entitled to "take one for the team". If the villains don't like it they can flank him, bounce shots off the pavement between his legs, or whatnot.

 

This brings us back to wings - if the character is taking the damage for other people: why should they have to buy anything beyond growth or streching to do so?

 

In essence what I'm saying is this: the attack has to pass between whatever is between it and its target, be it a wall, a car, or a brick.

 

But it depends if the EFFECT is as a power. If the brick has sufficient PD and ED, and can say "I moved my hand, this guy is covered now," and does so habitually and freely, I would question that, particularly if he and the hero he so shields routinely can fight on/perform other actions.

 

OTOH, if the giant must cover the guy actively, positioning himself and holding in place, losing DCV benefits and mobility, then that's fine with me.

 

I would apply the same logic to the winged man.

[Vondy]

I've traditionally allowed large bricks to "abort to take fire," and use mechanics similar to the "dive for cover" rules for adjudicating it. It essentially equates to putting yourself in position. I wouldn't let them reach out and grab an attack, either (unless it was a power).

[Farkling]

My list was meant as a package...

 

I think a force field with the "protects carried" adder would be sufficient in my campaign with those limitations...it could have the limitation extended to "cannot move while shielding" or some such. As a force field construct it would certainly allow combat to continue.

 

Which is more comfortable?

A 1-Hex area Force Field, Protects Carried, SFX:: Wing Shielding

OR

Force Field, Usable by 4 others (the most we can cram into 2 Hexes with no movement), Side Effects:: Protected people cannot move and have 1/2 DCV

OR

Force Wall, Restrainable - Wings, Feedback

 

I prefer the force field with protects carried for two reasons::

1) Protectees can still use powers by reaching around the wings. Gives "crouching under protection and firing" a visible effect. Feedback could still be applied to the wings if they have nerve endings. You cannot shoot through a Force Wall. Technically, if he protects someone with them, he cannot attack through his wings.

Since the demon has control of the wings, it should allow people to shoot in and out as they move about.

 

2) It also allows for sufficient attacks to penetrate the shielding (wing bows inward and impacts the protectee under the force of the attack, then straightens back out). IF they are solid and inflexible, then it would be a Force Wall...and if they are solid and inflexible....how does he use them to fly?

 

A blast which would cause damage to the demon should NOT have the stun damage completely blocked by the wings. This is my dislike of force wall. Missile Deflection is an active power, and would tie him up. If it is bought as Force Wall, his attacks become restricted. A force field does NONE of that, blocks the BODY, and allows for STUN to come through. The field could even include a limit for 60 degree arc.

 

Armor could be substituted for the Force Field just as easily.

I'd buy the wings as extra limbs in any case if he has that much control. If he has sufficient control of them to fly, smack people around, and form a shield, they should be bought as extra limbs with a restricted manipulation. And the 1-Hex Area on the wings will account for the Wingspan he has listed.

 

Wow it must be difficult for him to fly in a confined area!

[zornwil]

Originally posted by D-Man

I've traditionally allowed large bricks to "abort to take fire," and use mechanics similar to the "dive for cover" rules for adjudicating it. It essentially equates to putting yourself in position. I wouldn't let them reach out and grab an attack, either (unless it was a power).

 

I allow the same (whether brick or not).

[pinecone]

I also have always allowed someone to intensionally take fire...it just seems to fit the comics universe

[McCoy]

Originally posted by D-Man

I've traditionally allowed large bricks to "abort to take fire," and use mechanics similar to the "dive for cover" rules for adjudicating it. It essentially equates to putting yourself in position. I wouldn't let them reach out and grab an attack, either (unless it was a power).

What D-Man and zornwil said, it's a covering maneuver. He moves between attacker and target and takes the damage himself.

[Farkling]

But as GM's, would you allow him to do that while standing BEHIND them and sheltering them with his wings? Ot would you require some sort of power?

 

That seems to have spawned the debate.

 

I'm comfy with Extra Limbs and Stretching and the cover manuever.

[Bloodstone]

But as GM's, would you allow him to do that while standing BEHIND them and sheltering them with his wings?

 

Farkling,

 

I think you misunderstood me somewhere.

 

I DO want my character to stand in front of everyone and take the hits for them. I want him to be able to open wings and become a living wall. His puny companions will take shelter behind him, not the other way around. Now I will admit, I have considered wraping my allies up in my wings, but that would not be an are effect.