Mega-damage, bit by bit

[mhd]

While re-working my campaign's house rules (mostly for magic), I'm thinking about character creation constraints and limits again. As this is my first heroic campaign (and my first HERO adventure since ages), I just concerned myself with powers and basic attributes. But I see that a lot of the damage output comes from combining lots of smaller bonuses, arriving at quite a lot of instakills with their usual problems. One of the more obvious examples would be ranged combat: OCV isn't too high. A few CSLs, which most of the time you can fully dedicate to hitting things, as your def is crappy anyways. Then a few points in PSLs to reduce range and hit location penalties, maybe even Weapon Mastery. With the rather benevolent bow damage, you're getting a very high chance of a 3d6 arrow to the face. (And I'm not even allowing ranged haymakers)

 

Now it's harder to justify the same for defense, as I don't want to have too much magic and don't want to have every bandit running around with gapless full plate.

 

How did/would you do such a limit on all the various combinations? Fixed limit of OCV+CSL+PSL? Separate ones for the constituent parts (e.g. PSL-hit locations max 4)? Just admitting that with a 175 point base I'm in the higher echelons of fantasy anyway and should have more powerful (or just more) enemies?

[Trencher]

Re: Mega-damage, bit by bit

 

Depends on the tone of the campaign. Personally I am seeing players making glass cannon characters all the time and just whine and complain if something manages to hit them.

To manage overkill on the added skills levels you just have to put your foot down and create some campaign guidelines ala the rule of x. Also to avoid players characters using called shots on the big bosses, consider adding a power to your game called "alert warrior" or something where the ability gives the characters in question a bonus to dcv only against called shots.

There are ways to make armours very resistant to arrows, consider having master smiths being able to create brigadine and samurai armour that are have extra rpd against arrows.

[bluesguy]

Re: Mega-damage, bit by bit

 

I am running a pretty low magic campaign and have worked hard to 'manage' the power levels in my campaign. I 'codified' it for my players here. I do have a gritty campaign and so the potential for 'nasty' levels of killing damage is out there. Also the amount of resistant defense is capped at 6 rPD/rED that means characters can take a lot of damage quickly. We also use called shots but we don't use 'random' hit locations. Bad guys generally don't do called shots - but a few do and can.

[Markdoc]

Re: Mega-damage, bit by bit

 

How did/would you do such a limit on all the various combinations? Fixed limit of OCV+CSL+PSL? Separate ones for the constituent parts (e.g. PSL-hit locations max 4)? Just admitting that with a 175 point base I'm in the higher echelons of fantasy anyway and should have more powerful (or just more) enemies?

 

This.

 

I cannot count the number of fantasy GMs who comment that they have problems balancing their encounters ... who then note that their players are built on 150 or 175 point bases. In earlier editions of Champions superheroes started on 150 points base. Now things have gotten a little more expensive since then, but not so much it invalidates the basic point. If you are starting at that level, then you need to be aware that your NPCs are going up against a party of Conan-level adventurers and plan/build accordingly.

 

Basically at 175 points base, a 3d6 (or even 4d6) HKA isn't outrageous, so you need to plan for opponents who can face that sort of punishment.

 

cheers, Mark

[Tasha]

Re: Mega-damage, bit by bit

 

This.

 

I cannot count the number of fantasy GMs who comment that they have problems balancing their encounters ... who then note that their players are built on 150 or 175 point bases. In earlier editions of Champions superheroes started on 150 points base. Now things have gotten a little more expensive since then, but not so much it invalidates the basic point. If you are starting at that level, then you need to be aware that your NPCs are going up against a party of Conan-level adventurers and plan/build accordingly.

 

Basically at 175 points base, a 3d6 (or even 4d6) HKA isn't outrageous, so you need to plan for opponents who can face that sort of punishment.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I think you might be mixing things up.

 

Most fantasy is played at 150 - 175 (75 base + disads) TOTAL points (talking 5e and earlier here). in FH 1.0 we played at 120 Total Points (75 base +disads).

 

Our First Champions characters were build with 100 Base Points + Unlimited disads (disads were on diminishing returns though. after 2 of the same kind the next two were at 1/2 points, the next 2 after that 1/4 points etc)

We eventually settled on 100 base + 150 in Disads AKA 250 Total points.

 

In 5e and earlier Skill levels with a particular weapon are CHEAP. Amassing enough of them to call shots on most opponents doesn't cost a ton of points.

 

I would limit base OCV to no more than 7, Combat Skill Levels to 3-4, PSL's no more than 2 (4 if they offset Range Mods). Make sure that you also share the Averages with the players. ie CV 5-6 CSL's 2-3, PSL's 0-1 or something similar. Make sure that the Players know that most things they encounter will be at the averages with many things below it. Only Epic Encounters will be above that level.

[Tasha]

Re: Mega-damage, bit by bit

 

How did/would you do such a limit on all the various combinations? Fixed limit of OCV+CSL+PSL? Separate ones for the constituent parts (e.g. PSL-hit locations max 4)? Just admitting that with a 175 point base I'm in the higher echelons of fantasy anyway and should have more powerful (or just more) enemies?

 

I assume you are talking about your PC's being built on 175 Total points (ie 100 base +75 Disadvantages)?

[Markdoc]

Re: Mega-damage, bit by bit

 

I think you might be mixing things up.

 

Man said 175 point base: simply taking him at his word.

 

Most fantasy is played at 150 - 175 (75 base + disads) TOTAL points (talking 5e and earlier here). in FH 1.0 we played at 120 Total Points (75 base +disads).

 

Our First Champions characters were build with 100 Base Points + Unlimited disads (disads were on diminishing returns though. after 2 of the same kind the next two were at 1/2 points, the next 2 after that 1/4 points etc)

We eventually settled on 100 base + 150 in Disads AKA 250 Total points.

 

In 5e and earlier Skill levels with a particular weapon are CHEAP. Amassing enough of them to call shots on most opponents doesn't cost a ton of points.

 

I would limit base OCV to no more than 7, Combat Skill Levels to 3-4, PSL's no more than 2 (4 if they offset Range Mods). Make sure that you also share the Averages with the players. ie CV 5-6 CSL's 2-3, PSL's 0-1 or something similar. Make sure that the Players know that most things they encounter will be at the averages with many things below it. Only Epic Encounters will be above that level.

 

Fantasy can be played at all sorts of levels - I've literally run games starting at 25 point base all the way up to 200 point base, set in the same game world.

 

In general though, I find 150 -175 points too high for starting characters, for my taste. I can't see the point in giving characters plenty of points to start with and then limiting what can be bought with those points so that the characters are less powerful than the points would normally allow. I just give 'em less to start with and then let them build their characters pretty much as they see fit (with GM veto on clearly abusive combos, of course!)

 

cheers, Mark

[Beast]

Re: Mega-damage, bit by bit

 

Give Bosses and Lts No hit locations

target still takes damage but won't be 1 shoted by sniping

[mhd]

Re: Mega-damage, bit by bit

 

I assume you are talking about your PC's being built on 175 Total points (ie 100 base +75 Disadvantages)?

 

Standard Heroic rules from 6E1 34, with 175 total points and 50 points matching complications. There are some bigger monsters in the future and I wanted to leave enough space for costly non-human races and magical abilities. My planned HârnMaster campaign will definitely start with a lower spread and maxima.

 

Give Bosses and Lts No hit locations

target still takes damage but won't be 1 shoted by sniping

 

I have a pretty big dislike of specific "minion" rules (and their inverse).

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Mega-damage, bit by bit

 

Having an OCV cap is a good idea. Personally I would not allow (or at least strictly limit) PSL against Hit Locations because it is potentially unbalancing and because it never made much sense to me. PSL vs. Range Modifiers I am okay with, but unless you have the magic Eye-Seeker arrow, why should you be able to hit a specific body part with great accuracy when you only have even odds of connecting with your target in the first place?

 

I had a player who made an assassin with the shtick that he could kill a man with little concealable weapons like darts and small knives. He had a decent OCV, a couple All Combat levels, and something like 6 PSLs vs. Hit Locations so he could literally go for the jugular and do significant damage with an otherwise tiny weapon, which seemed like a reasonable build at the time. His attacks ended up being all-or-nothing; either he hit and the target when down almost immediately (thanks to x5 STN multiple on x2 BDY) or he missed completely. Against creatures with no hit locations he was pretty much ineffective. This was frustrating for both player and GM, so I would advise against such a build.