Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

[Cassandra]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

Exactly. In the second edition they had 100 point UNTIL and VIPER agents. That total included all their equipment and skills.

 

They also had 250 Point villains so the new heroes had someone to fight with an even chance of winning. The villains would still have an edge because they cheat.

[Greywind]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

Whether or not a villain would cheat depends totally on how the GM ran said villain. And the villains may not see what they are doing as "cheating".

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

Strike Force has a lot of things going for it, and one that's unique and special. It has plenty of write-ups of interesting villains and heroes (the heroes have beginning and experienced versions), rule variants, maps and base stats, unique organizations and races, GMing advice, and descriptions of team tactics (I learned a lot about how to run a team in-game from this book).

 

What really sets SF apart, though, is the campaign background. Author Aaron Allston takes you chronologically through the major events of his first campaign, describing both the developments in the game world, and the real-world situations that influenced them. We gain unique insights into a well-run campaign by learning what works and doesn't, and why something does or doesn't work, along with GM Allston and his players.

[Cassandra]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

I mean the villains get to take innocents hostage, shoot heroes from behind, lure the heroes into death traps, etc..

 

Who cares what they think they are doing is good?

[Cassandra]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

Strike Force was useful in that is showed beginning and more experienced characters, and had a nice background and interesting characters.

 

However the characters stretched the rules to the breaking point. They also were underpowered (Lorelei and Stunner were next to useless).

[Greywind]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

I mean the villains get to take innocents hostage, shoot heroes from behind, lure the heroes into death traps, etc..

 

Who cares what they think they are doing is good?

 

Not all heroes are honorable.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

...

However the characters stretched the rules to the breaking point.

 

That's coming from an expert.

[Cassandra]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

There are various kinds of heroes and villains. But there should be standards for what a hero will or won't do.

 

A hero should not kill or permanent injury anyone.

 

A hero should protect the innocent.

 

A hero should cooperate with the authorities.

 

 

You can have villains who will keep their word of honor. That can be a useful tool in their minds.

[Zen Archer]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

There are various kinds of heroes and villains. But there should be standards for what a hero will or won't do.

 

There generally are. For the purposes of a gaming campaign, those standards are set by the GM, possibly (I'd think "hopefully") with input from the players.

[psyber624]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

There are various kinds of heroes and villains. But there should be standards for what a hero will or won't do.

 

A hero should not kill or permanent injury anyone.

 

A hero should protect the innocent.

 

A hero should cooperate with the authorities.

 

 

You can have villains who will keep their word of honor. That can be a useful tool in their minds.

 

That ALL depends upon the style and theme of the campaign that you are running. Fantasy HERO tropes generally include tons of killing (its just expected). As do action movie themes and any number of Dark Champions style campaigns, and that's just to name a few. Actually, 4 color comics are one of the FEW genres where it is assumed that the Heroes will not kill or injure others. In the vast majority of others it is accepted that they will kill their opponents if necessary, although wholesale slaughter is generally frowned upon. (I will say that it has always amused me how the "norm" in multiple genres is to cut a bloody swath through hordes of rank and file grunt soldiers, only to show mercy to the head badguy and arrest him).

 

Many genres also have the hero's bucking the authorities. Batman, Spiderman, etc have all done long standing stints where they were wanted by the police or other authorities. Several genres actually make "the authorities" the main villain of the story.

 

In fact the only one of those statements that comes anywhere NEAR universal is protecting the innocent.

[Guest dan2448]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

There are various kinds of heroes and villains. But there should be standards for what a hero will or won't do.

 

A hero should not kill or permanent injury anyone.

 

A hero should protect the innocent.

 

A hero should cooperate with the authorities.

 

These are absolutely valid, but not exclusive, standards for 'heroism.'

 

Among other things, 'protecting the innocent' may very well require a hero to violate either or both of the other two precepts. Here's an example of such a situation:

 

Hero arrives at the scene of a tenement fire, set by a pyromaniac super villain who remains inside. The fire department is already there. Several kids can be seen waving desperately from a 10th story window. But the fire chief tells the hero not to go inside to attempt a rescue because, "it's not safe" and "we need to concentrate now on preventing the fire from spreading to other buildings."

 

To save those innocent kids, the hero would have to defy the authority of the fire department, pushing past the fire chief and into the building. Maybe hindering the FD's other efforts in the process. Once inside, the hero encounters the super villain. "You'll never get upstairs to those kids in time," the villain hisses. "This fire will pull down the entire building in a matter of seconds." Because the fire is spreading rapidly, there's no time to get into an extended battle with the villain, if the kids are to be saved. There's only time for one punch (or blast), which is going to have to be with full force to ensure the villain is incapacitated. But doing knowingly risks killing (or permanently injuring) the villain.

[Guest dan2448]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

A hero should not kill or permanent injury anyone.

 

Among my favorite 'independent' comic book super hero characters from the 1980s are "Nexus," "Badger," and the "Elementals," each and all of whom violated this precept repeatedly. Indeed, Nexus 'assassinated' mass murderers. Badger used his martial arts skills to 'maim' opponents over-and-over. Fathom from Bill Willingham's "Elementals" used her water powers to drown dozens of Saker's minions (at least twice), as well as hundreds of citizens of Philadelphia who had been turned into vampires.

 

And in the current TV adaptation of Green Arrow on the CW, "Arrow," Oliver Queen has already killed several people. (So many I've lost count.) Notwithstanding that, he has sought to avoid killing, and in the most recent episode was shown urging another vigilante not to kill. But he has killed himself.

 

In Champions terms, "Arrow" may be "Dark Champions." But Nexus would be "Galactic Champions"/"Champions Beyond." And I played "Elementals" characters using 3e "Champions" in the 1980s. The issue of whether 'heroes kill' crosses sub genres.

 

I myself would still consider them all 'heroes.'

[Kirby]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

Could we get back to the topic of the thread Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new instead of nitpicking everything Cassandra types? Sheesh. You'd think Tasha and I were discussing lingo and House Rules.

[Cassandra]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

I'm willing to agree to that, Kirby, just as long as you agree that I'm the center of the Hero Games Universe.

[Greywind]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

I thought Osiris was the center of the Hero Games Universe. Somebody better tell Steve that the paradigm has shifted.

[Kirby]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

I'm willing to agree to that' date=' Kirby, just as long as you agree that I'm the center of the Hero Games Universe.[/quote']Agreed. See signature.

I thought Osiris was the center of the Hero Games Universe.

It depends on your PER roll or appropriate Skill roll.

[psyber624]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

Cassandra is Mo Pow? frightening.......

[Cassandra]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

Not more powerful. I'm just the shinning light of all that is logical and right.

 

It's a gift, it's a curse.

 

That's what I get for having 20 EGO, 20 PRE, and 20 COM

[Greywind]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

+5 PRE, +5 COM (OIF: Stiletto Heels)

[Greywind]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

Not more powerful. I'm just the shinning light of all that is logical and right.

 

It's a gift, it's a curse.

 

That's what I get for having 20 EGO, 20 PRE, and 20 COM

 

When did you get drained? I have the PM still where it used to be a 30 EGO.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

Back to the review thing...for 5th edition...I'll recommend...Champions Battlegrounds...and excellent collection of adventures....that while all technically tied together...can also be used as stand alone adventures if desired. I like the fact that it uses villains from the Champions Universe for starters...as 5th edition adventures are...well..to be blunt..scarce to nonexistent. it also provided proper motivation to the villains and excellent examples of tactics for them as well. And the scenarios are each unique in their own way...either in terms of how they play out or simply environment. I thought the amusement park segment was especially good, but really....they're all great examples of this genre in role playing.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

Champions Battlegrounds also includes a large number and variety of detailed maps which can be reused for subsequent adventures.

[Kirby]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

That's what I get for having 20 EGO' date=' 20 PRE, and 20 COM[/quote']

When did you get drained? I have the PM still where it used to be a 30 EGO.

That's her 5E 350 point version. She's reverted back to posting 4E 250 point characters, so that's the write-up she's referencing.

 

Back to the review thing...for 5th edition...I'll recommend...Champions Battlegrounds...

Champions Battlegrounds also includes a large number and variety of detailed maps which can be reused for subsequent adventures.

I do like Champions Battlegrounds for its adventures as stand-alone ones. I didn't care for the tying them all together portion.

[Guest dan2448]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

For 6e, my favorite is "Champions Villains" v. 1. More than once I've pulled out the three hardback, full color volumes of the "Champions Villains" trilogy, totaling over 850 pages, and laid them next to "Enemies" I, II and III (published in the early 1980s), totaling 80 pages of staple-bound B&W glory, and marveled at how the characters and production values had evolved over 30 years. I also thought the supervillain archetypes enumerated and analyzed in the "Gamemaster's Guide" for 3e Mutants & Masterminds were a notably illuminating and enjoyable read.

 

For 5e, I would most strongly recommend the "Champions" genre book (the best survey of the super hero genre ever published for an RPG, I think) and "The Book of the Destroyer" among the twenty 5e "Champions" books I own. (Having first encountered Dr. Destroyer as a poor man's Dr. Doom in the 16 page "Island of Dr. Destroyer" adventure published 30 years ago when I was a pre-teen, I was totally blown away as an adult by this 200 page re-imagining/elaboration/extrapolation of what, really, was some pretty thin Bronze Age gruel.) I'd also recommend the "Freedom City" setting for Mutants & Masterminds (which reminded me of one of my favorite comic book series, "Astro City") and the related "Lockdown" super-prison sourcebook. I also thought that the "Dragon's Gate" supplement (about the Chinatown district in the "San Angelo: City of Heroes" setting) was a particularly original concept.

 

For 4e, my personal favorite was "Dark Champions" for Champions. (Daredevil and Batman remain enduring favorite characters of mine.) I also liked "Webs: The Spider-Man Dossier" published by TSR in 1992 for its "Marvel Super Heroes" RPG.

 

For 3e in the mid-1980s, I used "New York New York" for TSR's "Marvel Super Heroes" as a guide to play a Champions game set in the New York City of those 'jazzy' 1960s "Spider-Man" cartoons by Ralph Bakshi, re-runs of which my friends and I had all grown up with in the 1970s. But most popular among my high school friends and I back then was probably the "Batman" sourcebook for Mayfair's "DC Heroes" game. None of us ever played Batman as a PC, but it was very novel at the time to get to see blueprints of the Bat Cave (and the like).

 

For 2e in the early 1980s, I'd recommend "Escape from Stronghold" for Champions. Though my (then) junior high school friends and I probably got more use out of the X-Men stats for "Champions" published in "Different Worlds" magazine at the time than any other "Champions" supplement. And for people 'of a certain age,' the fact that the V&V adventures "Island of Dr. Apocalypse" and "Death Duel With The Destroyers" were foundations for Bill Willingham's later "Elementals" comic book series is also notable. I also thought the "Justice Machine" sourcebook published by Palladium for their Heroes Unlimited RPG was phenomenal, especially by the standards of the time.

 

The most disappointing Champions supplements I ever bought were:

 

For 5e "Champions," that's "Dark Champions: The Animated Series." From the title I expected an analysis of how to play Champions characters inspired by Batman and Daredevil (and their respective rogues galleries) in the unique 'dark deco' style of “Batman: The Animated Series.” So I was disappointed that this book seemed more focused on bridging a perceived gap in the Hero Games product line by imbuing 5e “Dark Champions” characters (with low or no powers) with a Four Color, “Champions-style" (i.e. Silver Age) morality, and was further disappointed that this 119 page book endeavored to do so with 88 pages of write-ups of largely uninspiring heroes and villains set in Hudson City. I'd also give an 'honorable mention' in this regard to "Vibora Bay." It had an intriguing and unique premise in many respects for which I had high hopes. But that promise was mostly unfulfilled, I thought, by mundane characters and predictable specifics.

 

For 3e "Champions," that's "The Great Supervillain Contest." I remember vividly being crestfallen as a teenager when I discovered (after spending my hard-earned summer job money on it) that here was nothing in this superficial supplement from 1984 that I couldn't have created myself at the time. The arena itself was facile in its conception and was described with minimal detail (and was visualized with simplistic cutaways and floorplans). The 'plot' was de-minimis. And the supervillains who ran it and fought in it were totally uninspired. On reflection, it's still a little hard for me to understand how the same Aaron Allston who edited this risible supplement could also co-write the fabulous "Justice, Inc." RPG for Hero Games around the same time, and would later go on to write, among many other things, the truly excellent 5e "Champions" genre book I recommended unreservedly above.

[Cassandra]

Re: Recommendations and Reviews of Superhero products both old and new

 

VIPER was a very useful supplement in that it gave the background and organizational structure of the premier evil super-agents group in the Champions Universe. The villains were built to high, however, and there was no way of every taking on the supervillains with a realistic chance of surviving.

 

Champions Annual #2 with the update of UNTIL and the restructuring of SAT into World Security Services was helpless and complimented Super-Agents.