ayinde Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 I have a player who wishes his character to be able to turn his mind invisible. basically as far as a mentalist or a ekg machine for that madder is concerned there is nothing there no mind. as a result mentalists have no line of sight even when he is standing right in plane sight. I was thinking i would build this as invisible with the limit only to counter mind powers (mental combat value) I was thinking this a 1/2 flaw that sound right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ndreare Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye This sounds like normal invisibility to me. 20 points for invisible to a targeting sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ndreare Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye PS: hero designer even has mental group as an option for sense affecting powers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group doesn't stop Line of Sight Mental Powers (Mind Control, Telepathy, Mental Blast). It really only works vs. Mental Awareness, Mind Scan & Mind Link. from the 5er FAQ: Q: What effects does having Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group have? Does it hide a character from Mind Scan or Telepathy? Can the character still use Telepathy to send and receive thoughts, Mind Scan to search for minds, and so forth? A: Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group hides the character from Mental Group senses. That includes Mind Scan (see 5ER 160). It generally doesn’t matter against Telepathy, since that requires LOS — if the mentalist can see you, he can use his Telepathy on you, since Telepathy isn’t a Mental Sense Group sense (even though it has sense-like aspects). A character with Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group can still use Mind Scan, Telepathy, or any other Mental Power — but his Invisibility doesn’t hide those powers from people who can perceive Mental Powers. See 6e1 p148 & 6e2 p39 for the equivalent 6th edition text. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ndreare Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye Well all I can say is I am taking my ball and going home. :-( Okay, with that in mind perhaps, mental damage negation combined with mental invisability i a unified power scheme? Something like 12damage classes should work, but that makes it way more expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye Also, see this similar thread from a couple of years ago: Immunity to Psychic Powers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ockham's Spoon Posted February 13, 2013 Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye Conceptually what the player is asking for sounds simple, but mechanically what they are asking for is to be invincible to all mental powers. That is going to cost a lot between buying Invisibility and the piles of Mental Defense needed to stop any attack. Clearly the character still has a mind even if it is undetectable (unless they are in a coma or astrally projecting and leaving the body behind or something), so I would suggest they just buy Invisibility to Mental Senses and maybe a few extra points of MDCV so that they are very hard to target, which fits the conception as near as I can tell. That will render them fairly untouchable by most mentalists, but at a reasonable cost. If they still want to spend some points on Mental Defense too (and you are okay with that) to cover stuff like area attacks, that's fine, but unless you have a lot of mentalist villains running about those points are probably not going to be worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyber624 Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye 6th edition also includes an option for GM's to allow a player to use a Mental Shapeshift to change himself to a different class of minds, but warns that it is unbalancing because he can become immune to mental powers. This is gone in CC as class of minds has been removed as a concept. Other than that I agree that Ockham's MDCV option is the better way to go. Allow the character to buy it fairly high, and with appropriate limitations (Costs End, Extra Time, Etc.) and you get a much better effect that does a good job of mimicking the sfx the character wants without being unbalancing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayinde Posted February 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye thank you for all the advise we tried it last night. we ended up ruling that his psi self was invisible but it was still there so if the mentalist laid his hands directly on the character he could be mind attacked and also if the mentalist used a area effect psi attack that worked. for that madder if the mentalist just used good old fashion mind scan after previously touching subject could target him that way worked out very well; the player plans to take mind group invisibility to counter the last one I noted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye thank you for all the advise we tried it last night. we ended up ruling that his psi self was invisible but it was still there so if the mentalist laid his hands directly on the character he could be mind attacked and also if the mentalist used a area effect psi attack that worked. for that madder if the mentalist just used good old fashion mind scan after previously touching subject could target him that way worked out very well; the player plans to take mind group invisibility to counter the last one I noted Why would the mentalist have to have "laid his hands directly on the character" to attack him? You can use Mental Powers on anyone you can see, and his "psi-self" being invisible wouldn't inhibit the mentalist's eye sight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye Why would the mentalist have to have "laid his hands directly on the character" to attack him? You can use Mental Powers on anyone you can see' date=' and his "psi-self" being invisible wouldn't inhibit the mentalist's eye sight.[/quote'] They "house ruled" this. The player in question now wants to exploit the house rule. Doh! This is an all too common example of 'house rules' being used as a quick fix vs. trusting and learning to understand the rules as written (RAW). We tried to help but ultimately we aren't responsible for advice not taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayinde Posted February 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye bigby: due to the character being tech invisible the mentalist could not target him with line of sight. we saw the power as kinda like a hacker sending a false location targeting that location you wont find something to hit. the mentalist laying his hands on the subject was more like he plugged into his data port and used it to attack directly hyper: his power work rather well he never wanted to be immune to mental powers and he isnt however he is hard to snipe. as for him taking invisible to mental since the mentalist can just walk up to him and lay his hands on him he still is not immune so I feel its not an abuse why do you feel it might be. perhaps I have missed something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayinde Posted February 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye if you have a gun and your opponet is invisible is he immune to bullets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye I guess my confusion and probably why it is sitting wrong with me, is this. Instead of building the effect you want you are house ruling a (possibly) major change into the game that seems unnecessary and could possibly have later ramifications. If a mentalist sees the character and attempts to attack him and his mental attack has zero effect is he going to think "hmm? Maybe if I go touch him my mental powers will work?" or is he going to thing "Crap! He's immune to mental powers! Better target his teammates first."? How does he magically know that touching him will have an effect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye Conceptually what the player is asking for sounds simple, but mechanically what they are asking for is to be invincible to all mental powers. That is going to cost a lot between buying Invisibility and the piles of Mental Defense needed to stop any attack. Clearly the character still has a mind even if it is undetectable (unless they are in a coma or astrally projecting and leaving the body behind or something), so I would suggest they just buy Invisibility to Mental Senses and maybe a few extra points of MDCV so that they are very hard to target, which fits the conception as near as I can tell. That will render them fairly untouchable by most mentalists, but at a reasonable cost. If they still want to spend some points on Mental Defense too (and you are okay with that) to cover stuff like area attacks, that's fine, but unless you have a lot of mentalist villains running about those points are probably not going to be worth it. This fits the described sfx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye The issue I see is that while Invisibility to Sight with a Limitation "Only to prevent targetting by Mental Powers" works, it means a mentalist using a more exotic Targetting Sense can still target the character. I might suggest Invisibility to Sight and Hearing, then applying the Absolute Effect Rule to let it cover any mentalist with any Targetting Sense at range. He'll still be hit by Area Effects, but there's no reason he wouldn't be if I read the original post right. Lucius Alexander When it comes to minds, the palindromedary is in a Class by itself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayinde Posted February 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye lucius we came to that conclusion too but made for a nice power quirk. bigby the touch contact is a house rule we made a long time ago it was made for a psi-lock clone someone had built basically allows a mentalist to attack with normal combat value instead of his mcv I am sorry for the confusion hyper the special effect is the inability to see the target wile trying to use basic mental powers please dont tell me what my special effects inclination is if it seems unclear I can understand that just state that fact and i will try to explain it with better clarity I have seen many of your builds and can see you do it well so your opinion counts with me. so ill ask again do you see a greater problem with how the power was built why and how do you see the build improved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye Okay, so the touch contact is a separate house rule already in play, not an attempt to balance his free immunity to ranged non-AoE Mental Powers. Being able to chose whether to use OCV or MOCV whenever you are in HtH range without paying for the ability to target (and use) a different Combat Value than the Power uses by default for free seems like a pretty big house rule (and a huge advantage for mentalists). Are you working with any other drastic house rules that may have an impact on suggested power builds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayinde Posted February 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye in truth its not that drastic really not a big jump from just having a multi power with a slot with the power made with standard combat value since it is a +/- 0 modifier I believe I could be mistaken. as for the power to take away line of sight if the hero was just invisible the mentalist could not target him anyway since he doesn't get the full benefits of being invisible i don't see how this is in any way overpowered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayinde Posted February 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye well we do I one set house rule all changes to a power req the power skill to be made. so for example using mind blast throw your touch would take a roll to achieve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye in truth its not that drastic really not a big jump from just having a multi power with a slot with the power made with standard combat value since it is a +/- 0 modifier I believe I could be mistaken. as for the power to take away line of sight if the hero was just invisible the mentalist could not target him anyway since he doesn't get the full benefits of being invisible i don't see how this is in any way overpowered. sorry, I missed you ever saying you had actually introduced a Power (other than he was planning on buying Invis for the Mental Group to deal with Mind Scans which was, I thought, a separate issue). The post when you said "we ended up ruling" followed by the house rules sounded like you just gave him the ability. Perhaps you could post the actual build? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayinde Posted February 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye fade from minds eye : Invisibility to Sight Group (20 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (-1/2) hero is only invisible to mentalist trying to make an attack using line of sight mental attacks character is otherwise fully visible point cost 13 end cost 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye The way you are applying this means that almost ANY Mentalist is essentially being affected by a 'transform like' effect that makes their powers work at 'touch only range' vs. this character. That's a pretty damn powerful absolute effect for the points being paid imo. What's the defense against this ability? That is, what extra ability would a mentalist need to have to bypass the 'touch only range' aspect of this character's mental invisibility? How would this character's powers interact with those of this mentalist: I-Mind ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayinde Posted February 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye She has mental awareness with targeting so she can see him his power would be little trouble for her. More over once he attacks he is visible unless he takes some sort of advantage. Maybe reread invisible power so again I don't feel its unbalanced. But I concede you make a good point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayinde Posted February 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Re: invisible only to the minds eye Might I also ask what a mental character uses to counter a regular invisible opponent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.