melessqr Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 ...to purchase Speed. You can't sell off fractional points, and you can't buy fractional points when buying speed as a power... So, either you're forced into inefficiency, or you have to jump through strange hoops to get the same result. The Scenario: I have a player that wants his character to have 12 Dex and 2 Speed in his Normal ID, and 23 Dex and 5 Speed in his Hero ID. A completely reasonable desire. Since Speed can't be bought in anything except 10 point chunks, and fractions can't be sold off... the buy breaks down like this: 10 Dex as a straight characteristic (Speed 2.0) +2 Dex No Figured Characteristics +10 Dex Hero ID Only (Speed 3.0) +1 Dex No Figured Characteristics, Hero ID Only +2 Speed Hero ID Only (Speed 5.0) Doesn't that seem a little Baroque to anyone else? And, I'm fully expecting Someone to tell me there's some new ruling that makes what I just detailed illegal. Melessqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 It is sufficiently baroque that I have house-ruled in my games that you can buy down fractional points of SPD. Also, whether you buy DEX as NFC or whether you buy down fractional SPD, you pay exactly the same amount of points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 It is sufficiently baroque that I have house-ruled in my games that you can buy down fractional points of SPD. So, you never bought Hero Designer or use it to create characters for your game? Also, whether you buy DEX as NFC or whether you buy down fractional SPD, you pay exactly the same amount of points. Exactly my point. Why obfuscate something that should be/used to be simple and make people jump through hoops to achieve the same result? Melessqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 You seem to be under the impression that (a) this is difficult to work around in HD and ( that this is a new rule. Neither is the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by melessqr Exactly my point. Why obfuscate something that should be/used to be simple and make people jump through hoops to achieve the same result? I believe the main reason for the rule change is that as players spent XP they were buying additional DEX, and instead of paying 3 point per point of DEX they were only paying 2 points per point of DEX. They were shaving the extra point off of the SPD rounding. With the rule in place now, If you start with a 23 DEX and 5 SPD, each point of DEX purchased beyond that increases the SPD as well (an increase to a 24 DEX gives a 5.1 SPD). No point shavings allowed now. I do agree that this does break down in Hero Designer though. If my werewolf character has a 15 DEX and 3 SPD, and wants to buy +8 DEX with OIHID, and then +1 SPD OIHID the character is left with a 4.8 SPD. There should be a way to purchase the extra .2 SPD with the OIHID Limitation too, because that is what you are trying to represent. I suppose the designers get around this by always buying Characteristics with the No Figured Limitation. It is just a sloppy way to do something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 You seem to be under the impression that (a) this is difficult to work around in HD and ( that this is a new rule. On point (a) I never said or implied that it was difficult. I detailed the method quite thoroughly above. My contention is that it's unnecessarily complex and requires a 'work around' at all due to an arbitrary and unnecessary rule change. Point ( I'll have to respond to later when I have access to all my reference material. Melessqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 I believe the main reason for the rule change is that as players spent XP they were buying additional DEX, and instead of paying 3 point per point of DEX they were only paying 2 points per point of DEX. They were shaving the extra point off of the SPD rounding. Nope! According to Steve, that's an acceptable practice: From the FAQ: Q: If a character increases his DEX, but wants to keep his SPD constant, can he decrease the points he previously spent on SPD and spend the savings on something else? For example, if a character has DEX 17, SPD 4 (costs 13 points), and he increases his DEX to 20 but wants to keep a SPD 4, can he recoup the 3 points he’d “save� A: You should get the GM’s permission, but unless he objects it’s acceptable to decrease the points spent on SPD to maintain a constant SPD score after increasing DEX. So, that's not the answer. Melessqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Monolith With the rule in place now, If you start with a 23 DEX and 5 SPD, each point of DEX purchased beyond that increases the SPD as well (an increase to a 24 DEX gives a 5.1 SPD). No point shavings allowed now. Err...no it doesn't. If you have a 24 DEX, you have a base SPD of 3.4. If you buy it up to 5, you have spent 16 points on your SPD. If you then increase your DEX (with experience, or whatever) to 25, you have a base SPD of 3.5. Your +2 SPD now costs you 15 points rather than 16. This is, of course, assuming you bought the +2 SPD as a Characteristic, not a Power. b]I do agree that this does break down in Hero Designer though. If my werewolf character has a 15 DEX and 3 SPD, and wants to buy +8 DEX with OIHID, and then +1 SPD OIHID the character is left with a 4.8 SPD. There should be a way to purchase the extra .2 SPD with the OIHID Limitation too, because that is what you are trying to represent. I suppose the designers get around this by always buying Characteristics with the No Figured Limitation. It is just a sloppy way to do something. [/b] Actually, if you have a 15 DEX and 3 SPD and purchase +8 DEX, OIHID and +1 SPD, OIHID, you are left with: 23 DEX (total) 3.3 base SPD 4 SPD (total) The +1 SPD costs you 10 points because it is a Power (it has Modifiers on it). This is per Steve and according to the rules of the system. If you purchase the +8 DEX and tell HD to have it add into the secondary total, then you have (assuming the +1 SPD is also added into the secondary total): 15/23 DEX (total) 2.5/3.3 base SPD 2/4 SPD (total) Outside of werewolf form, the character has 15 DEX and 2 SPD (correct). In werewolf form, he has 23 DEX and 4 SPD (correct). There is no breakdown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by melessqr Nope! According to Steve, that's an acceptable practice: So, that's not the answer. Then that answer conflicts with his reasoning behind not being able purchase smaller segments of SPD. One of Steve's two answers would seem to be wrong, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Simon Err...no it doesn't. If I have a 15 DEX 3 SPD character I paid 5 points for the additional SPD. If I then buy +8 DEX OIHID the character now has a 23 DEX and a 3.8 SPD because I have already spent the 5 points for the additional SPD on the base character. So this character has no way for me to puchase the extra .2 SPD, even though I have already spent 5 points for the SPD above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Then that answer conflicts with his reasoning behind not being able purchase smaller segments of SPD. One of Steve's two answers would seem to be wrong, IMO. You are Correct Sir! I can quote scripture with the best of them... always leads to a chewy little connundrum. Melessqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 So this character has no way for me to puchase the extra .2 SPD, even though I have already spent 5 points for the SPD above. Yes it Does! It'll cost you 10 character points for 1 point of speed. Have a nice day. Melessqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Monolith If I then buy +8 DEX OIHID the character now has a 23 DEX and a 3.8 SPD because I have already spent the 5 points for the additional SPD on the base character. That is incorrect. The extra 8 DEX affects your base SPD. It doesn't matter what "order" you purchase the characteristics/powers in. To be clear: If you have a 15 DEX, this gives you a 2.5 base SPD. If you then buy +1 SPD as a characteristic, you are left with 3 SPD for 5 points. If you then buy +8 DEX, OIHID as a Power, you have a 3.3 base SPD and your choice of: 4 SPD for 7 points or 3 SPD for 0 points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 If you then buy +8 DEX, OIHID as a Power, you have a 3.3 base SPD and your choice of: 4 SPD for 7 points or 3 SPD for 0 points How do I pay 7 points for the speed? 1 Point of Speed costs 10 points (Assuming no limitations)... You can't buy fractional points of speed. Or, that's what you've been telling me. Melessqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by melessqr Yes it Does! It'll cost you 10 character points for 1 point of speed. Have a nice day. Melessqr Incorrect. The problem was a basic misunderstanding of the way SPD and DEX relate. it does not matter what order the DEX is purchased, it always affects the base (starting) SPD. If he wants a character with a 3 SPD, he doesn't need to spend anything (and actually gets back the 5 points that he spent initially on the +1 SPD, since it is no longer necessary). If he wants a character with a 4 SPD, he just needs to spend the 7 points necessary to take his SPD up to 4 from 3.3 -- assuming he does not put any modifiers on his +1 SPD. The only time he would need to spend 10 points for that initial +1 SPD instead of 7 would be if he purchased the +1 SPD as a Power, in which case the "partial SPD" does not apply. Per Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by melessqr How do I pay 7 points for the speed? 1 Point of Speed costs 10 points (Assuming no limitations)... You can't buy fractional points of speed. Or, that's what you've been telling me. Melessqr There are no "fractional points" of SPD when purchasing SPD as a POWER. In the example given above, the +1 SPD is being purchased without Modifiers and is bought as a Characteristic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 I see what you're saying... but that's even MORE baroque. Dex 15, base speed 2.5 Buy it up to 3 as a characteristic for 5 character points. +8 Dex OIHID, base speed 3.3 Buy it up to 4 for 7 character points... Which leaves his base speed (In Normal ID) at the Highly Desireable, Efficient, and Oh So Obvious total of 2.7 If he wants to maintain his base speed of 3 in Normal ID and 4 in Hero ID, he has to buy his base speed up to the equally desireable, efficient, and obvious total of 3.2 It's just be easier to let people buy fractional points of Speed. Melessqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 While I agree that the numbers are messed up here, I have to say that helping people who are buying SPD with Limitations is not high on my list of activist causes. Think of the poor people trying to get Damage Shields! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by melessqr I see what you're saying... but that's even MORE baroque. Dex 15, base speed 2.5 Buy it up to 3 as a characteristic for 5 character points. +8 Dex OIHID, base speed 3.3 Buy it up to 4 for 7 character points... Which leaves his base speed (In Normal ID) at the Highly Desireable, Efficient, and Oh So Obvious total of 2.7 If he wants to maintain his base speed of 3 in Normal ID and 4 in Hero ID, he has to buy his base speed up to the equally desireable, efficient, and obvious total of 3.2 It's just be easier to let people buy fractional points of Speed. Melessqr You do not see what I'm saying at all. DEX 15, base SPD 2.5 But it up to 3 as a characteristic for 5 character points. +8 DEX, OIHID. This now changes his BASE SPD to 3.3 (23 DEX total). If he wants to have a character with a SPD of 4, he spends 7 points TOTAL on his SPD to go from a 3.3 to a 4. If he wants to have a character with a SPD of 3, he does not spend anything (he gets back that initial 5 points that he spent, since it is no longer valid/needed) and remains at a SPD of 3. Some costs may help: DEX: 10 base, 15 as a Characteristic (15 points) SPD: 2.5 base, 3 as a Characteristic (5 points) Total: 20 points --------- DEX: 10 base, +5 as a Characteristic, +8 OIHID, 23 total (15+19=34 points) SPD: 3.3 base, 3 as a Characteristic (0 points) Total: 34 points ---------- DEX: 10 base, +5 as a Characteristic, +8 OIHID, 23 total (15+19=34 points) SPD: 3.3 base, 4 as a Characteristic (7 points) Total: 41 points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Here's another Scenario for you... it's still broken... Normal ID, Speed 2, Dex 12. Hero ID, Speed 5, Dex 23. Dex 12, Base Speed 2.2 +11 Dex OIHID, Base Speed 3.3. To get the Speed 5 I want in Hero ID I have to buy the base SPD Characteristic up by 1.7, for 17 character points... which makes my Normal ID Base Speed 3.7... bumping up against human characteristic maxima... which is pretty impressive for a the geeky high school kid who is the Normal ID of the Character. It'd be easier just to let people buy fractional speed. Melessqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 To build on the theme... If I wanted the same character to be speed 6, dex 23 in Hero ID... he'd have to buy his Base Speed Characteristic up to 4.7, which is Above human stat maxima. It'd be easier just to let people buy fractional points of speed. Melessqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Oh, nevemind... buy the base speed charateistic up to 2.7 and buy 2 points of Speed OIHID... It'd still be easier to just let people buy fractional points of speed. Melessqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by melessqr Here's another Scenario for you... it's still broken... Normal ID, Speed 2, Dex 12. Hero ID, Speed 5, Dex 23. Dex 12, Base Speed 2.2 +11 Dex OIHID, Base Speed 3.3. To get the Speed 5 I want in Hero ID I have to buy the base SPD Characteristic up by 1.7, for 17 character points... which makes my Normal ID Base Speed 3.7... bumping up against human characteristic maxima... which is pretty impressive for a the geeky high school kid who is the Normal ID of the Character. It'd be easier just to let people buy fractional speed. Melessqr Again, incorrect. It may help if you stopped looking for this to be difficult/broken and simply accepted the rule. I'll go through how to do this in HD, since that is likely going to be easiest for you to understand: On the characteristics tab: Purchase +2 DEX (giving you a 12 DEX Characteristic). This costs you 6 points. Do nothing with your SPD (leaving you at a 2 SPD Characteristic). On the Powers tab: Purchase +11 DEX, OIHID. For clarity, have it add into the secondary total. This costs you 26 points. Purchase +2 SPD, OIHID. For clarity, have it add into the secondary total. This costs you 16 points. You are left with a character that has: 12/23 DEX 2/5 SPD Conceptually, this matches what you are looking to do: outside of Hero ID, the character has 12 DEX and 2 SPD. In Hero ID, the character has 23 DEX and 5 SPD. He benefits from the boost to his DEX by gaining an extra point of SPD (he only bought 2 levels to get to 5 SPD). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 And it costs 3 real points more... Melessqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by melessqr To build on the theme... If I wanted the same character to be speed 6, dex 23 in Hero ID... he'd have to buy his Base Speed Characteristic up to 4.7, which is Above human stat maxima. It'd be easier just to let people buy fractional points of speed. Melessqr ----------------------- Oh, nevemind... buy the base speed charateistic up to 2.7 and buy 2 points of Speed OIHID... It'd still be easier to just let people buy fractional points of speed. Melessqr You continue to misunderstand. You cannot "buy up" your SPD to a fractional value. Fractional SPD only exists to give the player a benefit if they want to buy their SPD Characteristic up to the next whole level from its base. That's it. You cannot sell it off. You cannot buy fractional SPD as a Power. You cannot buy up your SPD to a fractional value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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