I don't understand some of the changes that've been implmented...

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Simon

Monolith, please read my responses to you above, you are not calculating things correctly at all.

 

The character spends 7 points (total) to go from SPD 3.3 to 4.

And you are not reading what I am saying Dan. The character has ALREADY paid 5 points to go from a 2.5 to a 3. What happened to those 5 points he already paid? How do they figure in for him? He paid 5 points to go from a 2.5 to 3 and 7 point to go from a 3.3 to 4. So he paid 12 points to go a 4 SPD. Yet his base DEX is 23 (15+8oihid). So a 23 DEX +1 for base adjustment gives him a 3.3 SPD +.5 that he has already paid in character points above gives him 3.8 SPD. So he needs to spend 2 points to go from a 3.8, not a 7 points to go from a 3.3. If you make him go from a 3.3 then you are saying the 5 points he already spent are lost!!!

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by melessqr

So, you never bought Hero Designer or use it to create characters for your game?

 

I have bought it, but I find it of limited use. It requires baroque constructions for things like what you mentioned, and with the sheer number of workarounds required for things like that I find that there is a point of diminishing returns. Once the amount of work I have to do by hand reaches a certain level, it's no longer worth it to me to use the software, because it takes even more work to get the software to accept it.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Monolith

And you are not reading what I am saying Dan. The character has ALREADY paid 5 points to go from a 2.5 to a 3. What happened to those 5 points he already paid? How do they figure in for him? He paid 5 points to go from a 2.5 to 3 and 7 point to go from a 3.3 to 4. So he paid 12 points to go a 4 SPD. Yet his base DEX is 23 (15+8oihid). So a 23 DEX +1 for base adjustment gives him a 3.3 SPD +.5 that he has already paid in character points above gives him 3.8 SPD. So he needs to spend 2 points to go from a 3.8, not a 7 points to go from a 3.3. If you make him go from a 3.3 then you are saying the 5 points he already spent are lost!!!

No.

 

He paid 5 points initially. Then his base changed, making that 5 point expense meaningless, you recalculate the points spent on SPD when his DEX changes.

 

He does not spend 5 points and then 7 points. He spends 7 points total.

[Monolith]

If I have a character with a 10 DEX and buy his base SPD to 3 it costs him 10 points. If I then buy +10 DEX OIHID he would have a 4 SPD, but from what you are saying he would go back to a base 3 SPD (10 DEX +10oihid +1 base). This is the exact same thing you are saying about the 5 points of DEX. You are saying any points spent for DEX are lost to the character. And that is not right.

 

It does not matter if I buy a 10 DEX character with a 3 SPD for 10 points or a 15 DEX character with a 3 SPD for 5 points. Those 10 and 5 points need to add to the character's total, even if he does buy additional characteristics with a Limitation.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Simon

No.

 

He paid 5 points initially. Then his base changed, making that 5 point expense meaningless, you recalculate the points spent on SPD when his DEX changes.

 

He does not spend 5 points and then 7 points. He spends 7 points total.

But the point is, how does he buy the 7 points with a OIHID limitation when the power can only be purchased in groups of 10?

[Simon]

Originally posted by Monolith

But the point is, how does he buy the 7 points with a OIHID limitation when the power can only be purchased in groups of 10?

He does not.

 

If he wants to have the +1 SPD with OIHID, then he pays 10 points for the SPD and then applies the Limitation.

 

He then has 0 points spend on his SPD characteristic (vs. the 5 points that he spent previously) and will be spending 8 points on his SPD Power.

 

Per Steve.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Simon

Ahh...I get it: make stuff up when you're wrong.

 

There is nothing in FREd which advocates (or suggests in any way) selling off partial SPD.

 

Actually there is. Page 223 of Fred has the sample small child and senior citizen selling back .8 pts of Spd for 8 pts savings.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Simon

But, until the rules are changed to remove Figured Characteristics and just have them all act as primary characteristics (something that I can't see happening until the 6th Edition), we have to make do with the rules that we have....and those rules are extremely clear on this subject.

 

No, we don't "have" to do anything. Dan, the whole point of roleplaying is that there are no Game Police telling us what we "have" to do.

 

And Dan, I have to ask you this. How much time have you wasted defending your decisions on the boards here that you wouldn't have wasted had you not programmed blind obedience to your interpretation of the rules into the system? Include in that time the amount of time you've wasted explaining the software to people who find that a certain feature doesn't work as they expect, again because of that blind obedience to the rules. (And I can recall a few times when your interpretation was incorrect, and there is at least one rule that is not even implemented.) Would all of that time been worth doing it differently from the beginning?

[Chris Goodwin]

Discussion of the software aside, there's never a reason not to buy full SPD to even multiples of 10, with additional SPD bought No Figured Characteristics. The points come out exactly the same as if you'd bought down fractional SPD.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Monolith

If I have a character with a 10 DEX and buy his base SPD to 3 it costs him 10 points. If I then buy +10 DEX OIHID he would have a 4 SPD, but from what you are saying he would go back to a base 3 SPD (10 DEX +10oihid +1 base). This is the exact same thing you are saying about the 5 points of DEX. You are saying any points spent for DEX are lost to the character. And that is not right.

 

It does not matter if I buy a 10 DEX character with a 3 SPD for 10 points or a 15 DEX character with a 3 SPD for 5 points. Those 10 and 5 points need to add to the character's total, even if he does buy additional characteristics with a Limitation.

You're making the incorrect assumption that the character's base SPD is set in stone. It is not. It changes as his DEX changes. The same way as any other Figured Characteristic.

 

You have a character with 10 DEX and buy his base SPD to 3. This costs you 10 points.

 

If you then buy +10 DEX, his SPD would go up to 4 (base SPD of 3, and you've purchased 1 level). You've still spent 10 points on SPD.

 

If you decide that you don't like this, and you want him to only have a SPD of 3, you can opt to not buy that +1 level which you spent 10 points on. This leaves you with 20 DEX and 3 SPD. You've spent 30 points on the DEX and have not spent anything on SPD.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by archer

No, we don't "have" to do anything. Dan, the whole point of roleplaying is that there are no Game Police telling us what we "have" to do.

 

And Dan, I have to ask you this. How much time have you wasted defending your decisions on the boards here that you wouldn't have wasted had you not programmed blind obedience to your interpretation of the rules into the system? Include in that time the amount of time you've wasted explaining the software to people who find that a certain feature doesn't work as they expect, again because of that blind obedience to the rules. (And I can recall a few times when your interpretation was incorrect, and there is at least one rule that is not even implemented.) Would all of that time been worth doing it differently from the beginning?

 

Out of fairness, I think that there's been very few (relatively) situations where Dan's interpretation was counter to Steve's, and IIRC fixing those few situations were, with 1 or 2 exceptions, easy, most of them were just simple tweaks.

 

Otherwise, that "blind obedience", while I disagree with the philosophy personally, is what HERO wants and is not merely Dan's decision.

[Simon]

Originally posted by archer

No, we don't "have" to do anything. Dan, the whole point of roleplaying is that there are no Game Police telling us what we "have" to do.

 

And Dan, I have to ask you this. How much time have you wasted defending your decisions on the boards here that you wouldn't have wasted had you not programmed blind obedience to your interpretation of the rules into the system? Include in that time the amount of time you've wasted explaining the software to people who find that a certain feature doesn't work as they expect, again because of that blind obedience to the rules. (And I can recall a few times when your interpretation was incorrect, and there is at least one rule that is not even implemented.) Would all of that time been worth doing it differently from the beginning?

I would do nothing differently at all. The entire point of HD, as commissioned by Hero Games, was to create a chargen which followed the rules of the Hero System.

 

I didn't write the app for you. I wrote it for Hero Games.

 

There are a large number of people who find the app to be extremely useful. It has, essentially, become the ultimate rules lawyer, which is exactly what it was intended to be.

 

If you don't want to play by the rules of the Hero System, that is absolutely your perogative....as you said, no one is going to come breaking down your door and taking away your copy of FREd.

 

But don't expect the official software which was designed to implement the rules with the "interpretation" given by the line developer (Steve Long) to adhere to your house rules.

 

As much as possible, I've made it capable of circumventing some rules (allowing you to use your own house rules and still use the software), but the primary goal has always been on impementing the rules that Steve has created first and foremost and working in flexibility and house rules second.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by melessqr

I had a house rule... which I (and a whole slew of very intellegent, educated, and highly literate people with whom I've played) over the span of that decade had accepted as "The way it works", not as a 'house rule'. There are others that obviously produced the same interpretation of the rules from the words printed in both the BBB and the FREd.

 

Now I have Another "House Rule" because the $40 software I bought will not support the "House Rule" that we'd lived with so happily for a decade.

 

Now I'm told that everything I know is wrong, and the Rules I Bought aren't the Rules... but a Subset of the Rules, and that I am required to aquire additional materials to have a complete set of rules.

 

Melessqr

 

I think that's more than a little unfair. I don't know of a major set of rules for which you won't find meaningful "clarfications" (rules changes) online if the company is actively supporting it; for those that you don't find it, that means it's even harder to get those clarifications and changes.

 

HERO's "FAQ" (which is certainly too large and comprehensive to really be a true FAQ, but anyway...) houses very few changes to the rules, whether it's none or ten is debatable, but it's few. The explication of areas not discussed in the book should not generally be considered a meaningful rules "change", as it simply fills in blanks.

 

The fractional sell-back in the example, if it runs counter to the FAQ, may be a simple mistake. It happens. I defy any system of rules over 100 pages not to contain some substantive error.

 

In any case, we are talking nits and gnats. There really isn't anything big going on here. It's not as if some core, underlying changes are lurking about there.

[Gary]

Interestingly, the Bestiary is filled with examples of creatures that don't get any points savings for partial speed. It looks like the small child and senior citizen of page 223 of Fred are simply aberrations.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Gary

Interestingly, the Bestiary is filled with examples of creatures that don't get any points savings for partial speed. It looks like the small child and senior citizen of page 223 of Fred are simply aberrations.

 

They probably got copied-and-pasted from 4th and Steve forgot to clean them up.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Gary

Interestingly, the Bestiary is filled with examples of creatures that don't get any points savings for partial speed. It looks like the small child and senior citizen of page 223 of Fred are simply aberrations.

They're listed in the Errata as an error. At least, the Senior Citizen is, which kinda extends to the Small Child example as well.

 

If someone would like, they could even bring the Small Child error to Steve's attention and he'll update the Errata to include it.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Simon

They're listed in the Errata as an error. At least, the Senior Citizen is, which kinda extends to the Small Child example as well.

 

If someone would like, they could even bring the Small Child error to Steve's attention and he'll update the Errata to include it.

 

Well, somebody probably ought to given that it may preclude some future go-round of this. I nominate Gary as he saw it. But I'll do it if Gary doesn't want to.

[Farkling]

Here's the relevant section of the FAQ that is being nebulously referred to.

 

Q: If a character ends up with a fractional remainder for SPD (for example, he has DEX 24, yielding a SPD of 3.4, and chooses not to buy it up to 4), may he sell back the fractional remainder?

 

A: No, not even if he sells his SPD all the way back to the next lowest number (e.g., to SPD 2 from SPD 3.4). The character you describe doesn’t have a “SPD 3.4†— he has SPD 3, and thus nothing to sell back. A “fractional result†for SPD only comes into play, and only benefits the character, if he chooses to buy his SPD up to the next whole number.

 

Q: If a character increases his DEX, but wants to keep his SPD constant, can he decrease the points he previously spent on SPD and spend the savings on something else? For example, if a character has DEX 17, SPD 4 (costs 13 points), and he increases his DEX to 20 but wants to keep a SPD 4, can he recoup the 3 points he’d “save�

 

A: You should get the GM’s permission, but unless he objects it’s acceptable to decrease the points spent on SPD to maintain a constant SPD score after increasing DEX.

 

This:

A “fractional result†for SPD only comes into play, and only benefits the character, if he chooses to buy his SPD up to the next whole number

puts the lid on "I can only buy SPD in 10 point increments" argument.

The second part DOES imply that you cannot sell BACK partial SPD without GM support, unless it is part of an experience point increase to DEX.

 

There you have it then. Gm can authorize what he wants...so sayeth Steve.

[Gary]

Originally posted by zornwil

Well, somebody probably ought to given that it may preclude some future go-round of this. I nominate Gary as he saw it. But I'll do it if Gary doesn't want to.

 

Go ahead Zornwill. I've already sent Steve so much errata that he's probably sick of me by now.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Gary

Go ahead Zornwill. I've already sent Steve so much errata that he's probably sick of me by now.

 

Heh, okay, confirmed, will do next.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Simon

Ahh...I get it: make stuff up when you're wrong.

 

There is nothing in FREd which advocates (or suggests in any way) selling off partial SPD.

 

There's nothing in FRED which advocates in either direction. It's entirely vague.

 

The Characteristics as Powers section (page 92 of FREd) contains examples for "Super Steroid Pills" (STR and +1 SPD), "Presence Defense" (PRE), "Spell of Righteous Strength" (STR, and CON), a purchase of +35 STR with Modifiers, a purchase of 100 STR with Limitations which do not affect the Figured Characteristics, and a purchase of STR with OIHID.

 

The only mention made of selling off SPD is the following:

For example, if the character's DEX was purchased with a -1 Limitation, then any points gained by selling back the character's SPD would have to be subject to the same Limitation -- selling back one points of SPD would yield 10/(1+1)=5 points.

 

That in no way contradicts anything that has been said. The SPD that is being sold back is a full point of SPD, not "fractional SPD" which cannot be sold back and is never suggested as being possible to sell back.

 

Because this was unclear to some, a FAQ entry was made which very clearly states that it is not legal.

 

The example, again, isn't anything like conclusive. It only states that SPD can be sold back. It NEVER says anything about fractional SPD, one way or the other.

 

There's nothing in FRED, or in 4th IIRC, to base your position on.

 

As for the sample characters in the back of FRED, well, who wrote those up? Because whoever wrote them up certainly seemed to think that fractional SPD could be sold back.

 

[Simon]

Originally posted by Kristopher

There's nothing in FRED which advocates in either direction. It's entirely vague.

 

 

 

The example, again, isn't anything like conclusive. It only states that SPD can be sold back. It NEVER says anything about fractional SPD, one way or the other.

 

There's nothing in FRED, or in 4th IIRC, to base your position on.

Except, of course, for the statements of Steve Long, the Line Developer.....the guy that makes the rules.

[melessqr]

Except, of course, for the statements of Steve Long, the Line Developer.....the guy that makes the rules.

 

Except, of course, the statements of Steve Long, the Line Developer, to which you refer aren't In either of the sources cited.

 

Melessqr

[Simon]

Originally posted by melessqr

Except, of course, the statements of Steve Long, the Line Developer, to which you refer aren't In either of the sources cited.

 

Melessqr

Still arguing...amazing...

 

The original publication of FREd assumed that these rules were already known and did not need to be elaborated on. When it became clear that this was not the case, Steve answered the questions regarding these rules in the rules forum.

 

When it became clear that a significant number of people were operating with false assumptions of what the rules regarding fractional SPD were, Steve put the clarified rules in the FAQ, where they remain to this day.

 

The FAQ is every bit as "official" as the rulebook.

 

As has been stated by others in this thread, there are many other RPG systems (in fact, to my knowledge _all_ systems) that follow this same procedure: elaboration and clarification of their rules in an online FAQ. DnD, which has been through MANY versions and revisions and has, in fact, been around longer than HERO has their own online FAQ in which they do pretty much the exact same thing.

[melessqr]

But those other rules systems don't have the Glorious, Fantabulous, temple of Anal Retention that is Hero Designer on which people spend money to find that it doesn't let them do what they've done for since the BBB came out and Before.

 

Melessqr