I don't understand some of the changes that've been implmented...

[Simon]

Originally posted by melessqr

But those other rules systems don't have the Glorious, Fantabulous, temple of Anal Retention that is Hero Designer on which people spend money to find that it doesn't let them do what they've done for since the BBB came out and Before.

 

Melessqr

Well...first off, you were doing it wrong. Bold statement, I know....but it's backed up by Steve. You are perfectly entitled to do it wrong....it just means that you're running with your own rules, not the rules of the Hero System.

 

If you insist on continuing to do it wrong, then we have already discussed several ways in which you can do exactly what you are looking for....in Hero Designer. These methods range from somewhat circuitous methods (that you yourself proposed) to very simple methods (such as purchasing a Custom Power and setting the value to negative). The options are yours....but you seem happier griping about it than actually doing anything.

 

I'd say that the fact that HD allows you to implement your house rules (rules that are not accounted for in the Hero System itself) speaks pretty dang well of a program that was designed to implement the rules of the system.

 

Thanks for the complement!

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Simon

Still arguing...amazing...

 

The original publication of FREd assumed that these rules were already known and did not need to be elaborated on. When it became clear that this was not the case, Steve answered the questions regarding these rules in the rules forum.

 

When it became clear that a significant number of people were operating with false assumptions of what the rules regarding fractional SPD were, Steve put the clarified rules in the FAQ, where they remain to this day.

 

The FAQ is every bit as "official" as the rulebook.

 

As has been stated by others in this thread, there are many other RPG systems (in fact, to my knowledge _all_ systems) that follow this same procedure: elaboration and clarification of their rules in an online FAQ. DnD, which has been through MANY versions and revisions and has, in fact, been around longer than HERO has their own online FAQ in which they do pretty much the exact same thing.

 

Are you sure you want to use D&D as an example of how to do things?

 

This whole "that's how it was always supposed to be done" claim reminds me of when Justin Achilli had just taken over the Vampire product line at White Wolf, and changed the way that experience was spent, and tried to claim that "it was always supposed to be done the way I like it."

 

As for the "griping" and "work-around" issues, well, the wordarounds are inelegant kludges, and I happen to disagree with the actual ruling (_regardless_ of who made it), AND with what's being presented to back it up.

 

And I'm still waiting to find out why the character examples in the back of FRED sell off fractional SPD. If it's clear and unambigous, and it's "always been illegal to sell off fractional SPD," who exactly made the aggregious error of doing so in FRED, and why wasn't it immediately caught by the rest of the staff? Hell, the way Simon makes it sound, it's so clear and simple and consistant with the past that the person responsible should be fired for gross incompetence, along with all the editors.

 

 

[Simon]

Originally posted by Kristopher

Are you sure you want to use D&D as an example of how to do things?

 

This whole "that's how it was always supposed to be done" claim reminds me of when Justin Achilli had just taken over the Vampire product line at White Wolf, and changed the way that experience was spent, and tried to claim that "it was always supposed to be done the way I like it."

 

As for the "griping" and "work-around" issues, well, the wordarounds are inelegant kludges, and I happen to disagree with the actual ruling (_regardless_ of who made it), AND with what's being presented to back it up.

 

And I'm still waiting to find out why the character examples in the back of FRED sell off fractional SPD. If it's clear and unambigous, and it's "always been illegal to sell off fractional SPD," who exactly made the aggregious error of doing so in FRED, and why wasn't it immediately caught by the rest of the staff? Hell, the way Simon makes it sound, it's so clear and simple and consistant with the past that the person responsible should be fired for gross incompetence, along with all the editors.

It's already been caught, and mentioned in the errata.

[Pattern Ghost]

First, as much as it pains me... Dan's right. He doesn't set the spec for the job, he just does it. Bitch at Steve if you don't like the level of customizability. Or maybe ask nicely, and he'll have Dan do something about it.

 

Second...the SPD thing is a little goofy. Let's take the FAQ example. You want a 24 DEX but a 3 SPD. Doing it the FAQ way costs 42 pts. but you get an unused 0.4 SPD. Or, you can buy 20 DEX, +4 DEX DNAFC (-1/2), for 38 pts... which saves you 4 pts. Hmm. Same result. Long way to do it.

 

IRT the BBB/4th edition version: Unless there's a FAQ for 4th or I'm missing something, I don't see anything in the Characteristics section saying you can't sell off the odd SPD pts.

[Farkling]

And for whomsoever is dragging out the "flaws" in Hero Designer, I'd like to point out something...

 

The two pieces of DnD Character software I have dealt with (through friends...I don't see the need for the software myself), had NO ability to add changes to the rules systems the computer enforced, at times contradicted the printed rules, AND were badly designed for ease of use.

 

The shareware character generation software for White Wolf Exalted works better!

 

I haven't got the Hero Designer software. I've got the 5th edition templates for use with my MetaCreator. I assume it is far more customizable than Hero Designer from the descriptions I've been given.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Farkling

And for whomsoever is dragging out the "flaws" in Hero Designer, I'd like to point out something...

 

The two pieces of DnD Character software I have dealt with (through friends...I don't see the need for the software myself), had NO ability to add changes to the rules systems the computer enforced, at times contradicted the printed rules, AND were badly designed for ease of use.

 

The shareware character generation software for White Wolf Exalted works better!

 

I haven't got the Hero Designer software. I've got the 5th edition templates for use with my MetaCreator. I assume it is far more customizable than Hero Designer from the descriptions I've been given.

You may want to check out the free demo of HDv2....you may be surprised ;-)

 

The demo version installer (available on the HD site) will need to be updated to 2.0.48 before you'll be able to run it, but the updates are coming less and less frequently as we steadily narrow in on a final version (I'm down to about one a week now....probably dropping off from there until December).

 

There is a large amount of rules customization built into HDv2 in the way of Campaign Rules.....and the templates are far easier to modify and change for any other rules changes that you desire.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by melessqr

But those other rules systems don't have the Glorious, Fantabulous, temple of Anal Retention that is Hero Designer on which people spend money to find that it doesn't let them do what they've done for since the BBB came out and Before.

 

Melessqr

 

And it adds many new functionalities as well. Rules change. So?

 

I think you're mad because you don't like the change, not because HERO is doing anything unfair.

[zornwil]

Looking through 4th, nothing says you can or cannot sell back those unused extra fractional points in SPD. However, that omission, in my mind, means exactly that, we DON'T KNOW the PRECISE intent. Steve Long has interpreted it a certain way - and for all I know, that may be how George McDonald and Patterson and othesr did it. Or it may not be. Third doesn't say either precisely. Unfortunately I don't have 2nd or 1st; I may have once said on here I had 2nd edition, but i was wrong, I was thinking of Champions II, which is not the same thing. I used to have access to one of those (I think it was 1st), but that was through a friend many years ago. Anyway, neither 3rd nor 4th have character examples that show either way people with lower SPDs than the fractioanl value, as the examples are all supers or agents.

 

However, the phraseology of these editions that i have is interesting - it notes that SPD does not round, and that the only way to buy SPD up to the next level is to pay the increment. Given that it's, as the text says, "rounding", some could easily infer that you can't sell off that which rounds down.

 

Still, I believe that something like 90% of HEROites out there always sold back fractional SPD. I think the misconception, if that's what it was, was so wide-spread it had virtually become a rules extension. Steve's clarification amounts to, for most of us, a change. That's neither good nor bad beyond what each individual feels; as a part of the rules system, we're talking about such a small thing I don't really care in terms of whether it should be there. I would most likely take it out, but I might as easily forget to if I somehow ever had to write a 6th or 50th HERO edition.

[lemming]

Originally posted by zornwil

Steve Long has interpreted it a certain way - and for all I know, that may be how George McDonald and Patterson and othesr did it. Or it may not be.

Having gamed with several of the original Hero people, they had different interpretations amongst themselves.

[melessqr]

I think you're mad...

 

I'm not.

 

Having gamed with several of the original Hero people, they had different interpretations amongst themselves.

 

Thanks. Sort of squashes the pompus "There's never been a rule change, this is the way it's always been, you're just Wrong." poodoo.

 

Think I'll contact Aaron Alston, Earl Cooley, and some of the others I know from Aaron's campaign and see what their interpretation was back in the day.

 

Melessqr

[Guest Celt]

Sweet Monkey Jayzus! Is this still going on?

[melessqr]

Q: If a character ends up with a fractional remainder for SPD (for example, he has DEX 24, yielding a SPD of 3.4, and chooses not to buy it up to 4), may he sell back the fractional remainder?

 

A: No, not even if he sells his SPD all the way back to the next lowest number (e.g., to SPD 2 from SPD 3.4). The character you describe doesn’t have a “SPD 3.4†— he has SPD 3, and thus nothing to sell back. A “fractional result†for SPD only comes into play, and only benefits the character, if he chooses to buy his SPD up to the next whole number.

Steve's contention in this answer is that there is no Fractional point of speed. I submit that this is wrong. The reason that DEX costs 3 points per point is that it contributes to both SPD and CV. If it didn't, it would only be used to determine the order of action of characters in a segment, and as the basis for making Dex Rolls... A little more usefull than COM, but not as useful as STR, CON, EGO, or even PRE.

 

My contention is that those Fractional Points Exist because I bloody well paid for them, and if I want to, I can sell them back. If I have a 12 DEX and a 2.2 SPD, I paid 6 Points for 2 points of Dex... a large percentage of the reason I paid 3 points each for those points of DEX is the .2 SPD it got me. If I don't want to make use of those fractional points of SPD, then I want the points back.

 

I Paid for those Fractions... They Exist.

 

Melessqr

[Simon]

Originally posted by Celt

Sweet Monkey Jayzus! Is this still going on?

Yup.

 

So far we've established that the rule exists and has been stated clearly enough by Steve that even the likes of Melessqr and Kristopher have been forced to admit that it exists.

 

We've also established that if they don't like the rule, they can ignore it....and not run the risk of the gaming police beating down their door in the middle of the night and taking all of their precious Hero stuff.

 

We've also established several ways in which they can use Hero Designer while not following that rule and have the points work out correctly.

 

As near as I can tell, Melessqr seems to be (a) pissed that anyone else would dare follow different rules than him (even Steve Long, who is obviously unfit to design a rules system and should bow before the glory of Melessqr's knowledge)...and ( trying to show just how big of an asshole he can be.

 

Myself, I'm getting ready to take the money that I got from Melessqr's purchase of Hero Designer and go have a few beers on him.

 

Thanks, Melessqr!

[melessqr]

( trying to show just how big of an asshole he can be.

 

Think you won that contest.

 

Enjoy your beer.

 

Melessqr

[Simon]

Originally posted by melessqr

Think you won that contest.

 

That should come as a shock to nobody.

 

Enjoy your beer.

Will do!

[melessqr]

Steve Long Wrote:

Technically this is a game design philosophy question, but since I can answer briefly, I will.

 

It's illegal to sell them back because they don't, technically, exist -- SPD rounds down the the next lowest whole point. If he sells off another Characteristic, a character is actually losing something -- he's giving up some benefit he would otherwise have. This is untrue with fractional SPD; technically the character is giving up nothing, and it's both unfair and unbalanced to get something for nothing.

 

You're wrong. I paid for them as part of my 3 points of the points of DEX I bought. And, if I can't sell off unwanted fractional points of SPD, you're not letting me sell back something for nothing, but forcing me to spend points on something that provides no benefit. But, you're the guy that's making the rules, and obviously aren't going to change anything.

 

As a benefit to characters, the rules let a character buy his SPD Characteristic up by paying off the fractional remainder, but that's just a courtesy.

 

Golly gee, thanks bunches!

 

Characters can't buy fractional SPD as a Power (note the difference from what you've written) because it creates too many mathematical and conceptual problems.

 

Like what? Name one... Waving your hand and making a claim doesn't make it so... Except, of course, you're "The Man" and are perfectly capable of waving your hand and making EBs only affect characters that wear blue... Which would be about a sensical as this ruling.

 

The solution, if all of this troubles you, is to make all Figured Characteristics into Primary Characteristics with their starting values as 2, 2, 2, 4, 20, and 20, respectively. That solves all these problems nicely.

 

Nah... easier than that, just buy odd points of DEX with NFC, which mathmaticly mirrors the my position (which in and of itself should be support for my position) but increases complexity and bookeep. Which as far as I can see is the only effect of your ruling... Increasing complexity and bookeeping.

 

Melessqr

[Agent X]

Originally posted by melessqr

Steve's contention in this answer is that there is no Fractional point of speed. I submit that this is wrong. The reason that DEX costs 3 points per point is that it contributes to both SPD and CV. If it didn't, it would only be used to determine the order of action of characters in a segment, and as the basis for making Dex Rolls... A little more usefull than COM, but not as useful as STR, CON, EGO, or even PRE.

 

My contention is that those Fractional Points Exist because I bloody well paid for them, and if I want to, I can sell them back. If I have a 12 DEX and a 2.2 SPD, I paid 6 Points for 2 points of Dex... a large percentage of the reason I paid 3 points each for those points of DEX is the .2 SPD it got me. If I don't want to make use of those fractional points of SPD, then I want the points back.

 

I Paid for those Fractions... They Exist.

 

Melessqr

His ruling on this one is not something I like either.

[JmOz]

There are a lot of ruling Steve has made I disagree with, including part of this one. I do feel selling speed back is abusive, but I feel that the speed should be recorder fractorily (is that a word?) and should be able to be bought as a power to round it up (For example if I have a dex of 23 I should be allowed to buy .7 Speed with a foci to round it up.

 

Is this a real issue, here is what you do, ready? put a negative adder on Dex bought as speed called "Sell back" and be good.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Simon

Ahh...I get it: make stuff up when you're wrong.

 

Geez, you are acting like an ass with these sorts of comments. It is, however, consistent with your approach to complaints about Hero Designer.

[Agent X]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by melessqr

But those other rules systems don't have the Glorious, Fantabulous, temple of Anal Retention that is Hero Designer on which people spend money to find that it doesn't let them do what they've done for since the BBB came out and Before.

 

Melessqr

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Simon

Well...first off, you were doing it wrong. Bold statement, I know....but it's backed up by Steve. You are perfectly entitled to do it wrong....it just means that you're running with your own rules, not the rules of the Hero System.

 

If you insist on continuing to do it wrong, then we have already discussed several ways in which you can do exactly what you are looking for....in Hero Designer. These methods range from somewhat circuitous methods (that you yourself proposed) to very simple methods (such as purchasing a Custom Power and setting the value to negative). The options are yours....but you seem happier griping about it than actually doing anything.

 

I'd say that the fact that HD allows you to implement your house rules (rules that are not accounted for in the Hero System itself) speaks pretty dang well of a program that was designed to implement the rules of the system.

 

Thanks for the complement! End of Simon

 

Man, you still are acting like an ass. I started reading this thread not expecting someone as intimately associated with DOJ to come off this way.

 

Have they talked to you about this? I know I would if someone who was essentially in the business with me talked to customers in such a flip manner.

 

I used to sell off speed in 4th Edition too and, guess what, I wasn't wrong. That means melessqr isn't wrong either. Nor are the character designs in some of the Champions resources published by Hero wrong either. I think you know Steve Long was not yet the great god of Hero in 4th Edition days.

 

Consider working on your people skills as much as you work on your computer skills.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Simon

Yup.

 

So far we've established that the rule exists and has been stated clearly enough by Steve that even the likes of Melessqr and Kristopher have been forced to admit that it exists.

 

We've also established that if they don't like the rule, they can ignore it....and not run the risk of the gaming police beating down their door in the middle of the night and taking all of their precious Hero stuff.

 

We've also established several ways in which they can use Hero Designer while not following that rule and have the points work out correctly.

 

As near as I can tell, Melessqr seems to be (a) pissed that anyone else would dare follow different rules than him (even Steve Long, who is obviously unfit to design a rules system and should bow before the glory of Melessqr's knowledge)...and ( trying to show just how big of an asshole he can be.

 

Myself, I'm getting ready to take the money that I got from Melessqr's purchase of Hero Designer and go have a few beers on him.

 

Thanks, Melessqr!

And we have established that you need to learn how to be respectful and need to stop slanting an issue the way you want to see it.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X

And we have established that you need to learn how to be respectful and need to stop slanting an issue the way you want to see it.

 

In fairness to Dan, he has been severely provoked in this thread. I agree that Hero employees shouldn't get in spitting matches with customers, but meslessqr and Kristopher have been pushing and pushing over an issue that frankly, is extremely trivial.

 

When one side is making comments that the entire Hero editorial staff should be fired because one example in the book is wrong, there is a natural tendency for the other side to react and push back.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary

In fairness to Dan, he has been severely provoked in this thread. I agree that Hero employees shouldn't get in spitting matches with customers, but meslessqr and Kristopher have been pushing and pushing over an issue that frankly, is extremely trivial.

 

When one side is making comments that the entire Hero editorial staff should be fired because one example in the book is wrong, there is a natural tendency for the other side to react and push back.

I don't recall a statement advocating the firing of the editorial staff. I've read back throught the thread to find it. Where is it?

 

I've asked this Simon fellow some questions before and have been responded to in a less than couth manner so I'm not very surprised with his responses here.

 

His responses in this thread seem to consist of belittling the readers for daring to complain and by using a sort of circular reasoning to essentially ignore the fact that they don't agree with Long's basic reasoning on this point to begin with.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Simon

So far we've established that the rule exists and has been stated clearly enough by Steve that even the likes of Melessqr and Kristopher have been forced to admit that it exists.

 

Liar.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Gary

In fairness to Dan, he has been severely provoked in this thread. I agree that Hero employees shouldn't get in spitting matches with customers, but meslessqr and Kristopher have been pushing and pushing over an issue that frankly, is extremely trivial.

 

When one side is making comments that the entire Hero editorial staff should be fired because one example in the book is wrong, there is a natural tendency for the other side to react and push back.

 

Go back and read my statement. I did NOT suggest that anyone should be fired. I was making a sarcastic comment about Simon's position.