Simon Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by melessqr And it costs 3 real points more... Melessqr No, it costs exactly what it is supposed to cost according to the rules of the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Pages 24 and 25 of FRED don't say anything to justify the stance you're taking. Oh, and page 92 of FRED makes a direct reference to selling back SPD: "For example, if the character's DEX was purchased with a -1 Limitation, then any points gained by selling back the character's SPD would be subject to the same limitation..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Your approved method: 12 Dex as a straight Characteristic (speed 2.2), 6 Real +11 Dex Hero ID Only (Speed 3.3), 26 Real +2 Speed Hero ID Only (Speed 5.3), 16 Real 48 Real Points The way I'm gonna do it: (because the software supports it) 10 Dex as a straight characteristic (Speed 2.0), 0 Real +2 Dex No Figured Characteristics, 4 Real +10 Dex Hero ID Only (Speed 3.0), 24 Real +1 Dex No Figured Characteristics, Hero ID Only, 2 Real +2 Speed Hero ID Only (Speed 5.0) , 16 Real 46 Real Point The most sensible and efficient method: 12 Dex as a straight characteristic (Speed 2.2), 6 Real -.2 Speed (Speed 2.0), -2 Real +11 Dex Hero ID Only (Speed 3.1), 26 Real +1.9 Speed Hero ID Only (Speed 5.0), 15 Real 45 Real Points You Approved method is 3 Real points more... Melessqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher Pages 24 and 25 of FRED don't say anything to justify the stance you're taking. Oh, and page 92 of FRED makes a direct reference to selling back SPD: "For example, if the character's DEX was purchased with a -1 Limitation, then any points gained by selling back the character's SPD would be subject to the same limitation..." First off, you are perfectly welcome to sell back SPD. It is completely within the rules for you to do so. If you have a 2.3 SPD and you sell back a level, you get 10 points back and end up at a 1 SPD. As for the source of the rule, I get the rule directly from Steve Long. The guy that WRITES the rules. The rule is made abundantly clear in the FAQ, since there are a number of people that have been operating under a misconception of what the rules regarding partial points of SPD were and were taking their misconceptions as cannon. This rule is not a new rule. It is not something that Steve created for 5th Edition. It has been around for a long time....it is just something which he found it necessary to clarify when folks started asking questions about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by melessqr Your approved method: 12 Dex as a straight Characteristic (speed 2.2), 6 Real +11 Dex Hero ID Only (Speed 3.3), 26 Real +2 Speed Hero ID Only (Speed 5.3), 16 Real 48 Real Points The way I'm gonna do it: 10 Dex as a straight characteristic (Speed 2.0), 0 Real +2 Dex No Figured Characteristics, 4 Real +10 Dex Hero ID Only (Speed 3.0), 24 Real +1 Dex No Figured Characteristics, Hero ID Only, 2 Real +2 Speed Hero ID Only (Speed 5.0) , 16 Real 46 Real Point The most sensible and efficient method: 12 Dex as a straight characteristic (Speed 2.2), 6 Real -.2 Speed (Speed 2.0), -2 Real +11 Dex Hero ID Only (Speed 3.1), 26 Real +1.9 Speed Hero ID Only (Speed 5.0), 15 Real 45 Real Points You Approved method is 3 Real points more... Melessqr You're welcome to buy it however you want. The way I suggested is the way that I would expect one of my players to purchase it. If they came to me with your second option, I would tell them to stop being a munchkin and deal with it.....or I'd make their character's life a living hell until they learned their lesson. As for the third option, it is against the rules, so the points don't really matter. It is the same as saying that you'd save points if you only spent 3 points per level of Energy Blast rather than 5. You're technically correct, but you're not following the rules of the Hero System, which is what we're discussing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Simon First off, you are perfectly welcome to sell back SPD. It is completely within the rules for you to do so. If you have a 2.3 SPD and you sell back a level, you get 10 points back and end up at a 1 SPD. I'm not seeing anything about that in FRED. From page 24: Each additional point of SPD costs 10 Character Points. - and - Each 1/10 of a SPD point costs 1 Character Point. There's nothing printed there that even implies that SPD can only be sold back in 10 Character Point chunks. As for the source of the rule, I get the rule directly from Steve Long. The guy that WRITES the rules. The rule is made abundantly clear in the FAQ, since there are a number of people that have been operating under a misconception of what the rules regarding partial points of SPD were and were taking their misconceptions as cannon. This rule is not a new rule. It is not something that Steve created for 5th Edition. It has been around for a long time....it is just something which he found it necessary to clarify when folks started asking questions about it. The FAQ? What page of FRED does that begin on? {flipping through FRED} There are some blank pages in the back of my copy of FRED. Did I get a messed up copy? Can I exchange my copy for a copy that has this FAQ thing actually printed? Who do I contact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 The FAQ? What page of FRED does that begin on? {flipping through FRED} There are some blank pages in the back of my copy of FRED. Did I get a messed up copy? Can I exchange my copy for a copy that has this FAQ thing actually printed? Who do I contact? *chuckles* You go, Boi. Melessqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher I'm not seeing anything about that in FRED. From page 24: Each additional point of SPD costs 10 Character Points. - and - Each 1/10 of a SPD point costs 1 Character Point. There's nothing printed there that even implies that SPD can only be sold back in 10 Character Point chunks. The FAQ? What page of FRED does that begin on? {flipping through FRED} There are some blank pages in the back of my copy of FRED. Did I get a messed up copy? Can I exchange my copy for a copy that has this FAQ thing actually printed? Who do I contact? The FAQ exists to clarify rules in FREd that are misunderstood....or not understood clearly enough. It also elaborates on rules that may not be stated at all in FREd. Variations on rules and questions that may never have occurred to Steve when he was initially writing the book. The rullings that Steve makes in the FAQ are just as much a part of Hero System as the book itself. They exist to help people better understand the rules of the system. If you want, I believe that they keep a PDF copy of the FAQ posted, so you can easily download it and print it out. You can even staple it into the back of your copy of FREd, if that makes you feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 The FAQ exists to clarify rules in FREd that are misunderstood....or not understood clearly enough. It also elaborates on rules that may not be stated at all in FREd. Variations on rules and questions that may never have occurred to Steve when he was initially writing the book. The rullings that Steve makes in the FAQ are just as much a part of Hero System as the book itself. They exist to help people better understand the rules of the system. FREd, Page 2 INTRODUCTION TO THE HERO SYSTEM Welcome to the HERO System, a complete set of universal roleplaying rules... Evidently it's not that complete. Melessqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Simon This rule is not a new rule. It is not something that Steve created for 5th Edition. It has been around for a long time....it is just something which he found it necessary to clarify when folks started asking questions about it. The first I heard of it was in 5th edition. That doesn't mean I'm right. Consider this a post as a reminder for me to take a look at my BBB when I get home. I do find it an unnessasary rule which may be the reason I don't recall it being in 4th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 A) Not everyone has access to the Internet. The FAQ being online doesn't do them any good. This is the 5th edition of the game, a game which has been around for over a decade. If it isn't in print at this point, after all that time and four previous tries, forget it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher A) Not everyone has access to the Internet. The FAQ being online doesn't do them any good. This is the 5th edition of the game, a game which has been around for over a decade. If it isn't in print at this point, after all that time and four previous tries, forget it. Just because not everyone has access to the Internet, it's unfair to slam the FAQ as if it were somehow less valid as a clarifier. This is a now-standard method for virtually every publisher to deal with rules clarifications and changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffreyWKramer Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Looks like some people here would prefer that, instead of making clarifications and correcting errors via a readily available* FAQ and Errata updates, some would prefer to have new editions of the books - complete with rule changes - come out every couple years, per WoTC. HERO 5.5? No thanks. * If you're here on the message board, it's inane to be arguing that online FAQs aren't accessible enough. If some HERO player is so far out in the boons he or she can't access the Internet, I think that person probably has other things to concern them more than rules minutae. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 I'll have to check my material also, I suspect that the sell-back of SPD could be done fractionally before OR it wasn't addressed at all, which to me does NOT indicate an implicit rule that you couldn't. But I've been wrong before on such things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 It wasn't addressed before. Everyone I knew did it that way, but there were no explicit rounding rules (and the character creation programs of the time were not rules-definitive). Of course, getting rid of figured characteristics would solve this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Talon It wasn't addressed before. Everyone I knew did it that way, but there were no explicit rounding rules (and the character creation programs of the time were not rules-definitive). Of course, getting rid of figured characteristics would solve this problem. Agreed, they tend to be more trouble than they're worth. But, until the rules are changed to remove Figured Characteristics and just have them all act as primary characteristics (something that I can't see happening until the 6th Edition), we have to make do with the rules that we have....and those rules are extremely clear on this subject. I would argue that Charges needs to be changed just as badly, but that's a whole 'nother conversation ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 ....and those rules are extremely clear on this subject. No... No, they're not... Obviously, or this thread wouldn't exist, and there wouldn't be FAQ entries about it... People asking questions indicates the rules are unclear. People asking questions about it frequently indicates that the rules are very unclear. Melessqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by melessqr No... No, they're not... Obviously, or this thread wouldn't exist, and there wouldn't be FAQ entries about it... People asking questions indicates the rules are unclear. People asking questions about it frequently indicates that the rules are very unclear. Melessqr Rules include those rules in the FAQ. That's why it's there: to make things clear. The FAQ entries are extremely clear on this. Ipso facto, so are the rules. Q.E.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by zornwil Just because not everyone has access to the Internet, it's unfair to slam the FAQ as if it were somehow less valid as a clarifier. This is a now-standard method for virtually every publisher to deal with rules clarifications and changes. In the case of HERO, it's not being used as a clarifier for already-printed rules. It's being used to publish previously unwritten rules. There's NOTHING in the printed rules to indicate that the remaining fractional SPD can't be sold back. Read page 24 and 25, and page 92 (IIRC). Not only is there nothing at all printed about this, the Powers entry for Characteristics SPECIFICALLY uses selling back the remaining fractional SPD as an EXAMPLE. If something is used as an example in the written rules, you can hardly claim that it was always forbidden and that everyone just misunderstood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Rules include those rules in the FAQ. That's why it's there: to make things clear. Then you need to print a lable on the book warning people that what they're buying is NOT a complete rule set, and that internet access will be required to have access to the complete rule set. Also, remove the claim on Page 2 of FREd that what is included in the book is a complete rules set. Melessqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher In the case of HERO, it's not being used as a clarifier for already-printed rules. It's being used to publish previously unwritten rules. There's NOTHING in the printed rules to indicate that the remaining fractional SPD can't be sold back. Read page 24 and 25, and page 92 (IIRC). Not only is there nothing at all printed about this, the Powers entry for Characteristics SPECIFICALLY uses selling back the remaining fractional SPD as an EXAMPLE. If something is used as an example in the written rules, you can hardly claim that it was always forbidden and that everyone just misunderstood. Ahh...I get it: make stuff up when you're wrong. There is nothing in FREd which advocates (or suggests in any way) selling off partial SPD. The Characteristics as Powers section (page 92 of FREd) contains examples for "Super Steroid Pills" (STR and +1 SPD), "Presence Defense" (PRE), "Spell of Righteous Strength" (STR, and CON), a purchase of +35 STR with Modifiers, a purchase of 100 STR with Limitations which do not affect the Figured Characteristics, and a purchase of STR with OIHID. The only mention made of selling off SPD is the following: For example, if the character's DEX was purchased with a -1 Limitation, then any points gained by selling back the character's SPD would have to be subject to the same Limitation -- selling back one points of SPD would yield 10/(1+1)=5 points. That in no way contradicts anything that has been said. The SPD that is being sold back is a full point of SPD, not "fractional SPD" which cannot be sold back and is never suggested as being possible to sell back. Because this was unclear to some, a FAQ entry was made which very clearly states that it is not legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by melessqr I see what you're saying... but that's even MORE baroque. Dex 15, base speed 2.5 Buy it up to 3 as a characteristic for 5 character points. +8 Dex OIHID, base speed 3.3 Buy it up to 4 for 7 character points... Which leaves his base speed (In Normal ID) at the Highly Desireable, Efficient, and Oh So Obvious total of 2.7 It also means that the character paid 12 points to go from a 3.3 SPD to a 4 SPD (5 to go from a 2.5 to 3 and 7 to go from a 3.3 to 4). He paid 12 points for the privilage of raising his SPD .7 points. SPD needs to run as a function of a total. 15 DEX gives 2.5 SPD +.5 to SPD for a 3 SPD. +8 DEX should then take the character to 3.8 SPD (his 2.5 base + .5 he paid for + .8 he gains from the extra DEX) because his new base is now 3, not 2.5. If you do not consider the base to be 3 then the character has just wasted the 5 points raising the SPD in the first place. Those 5 points are lost completely within the system, and that is not correct. A character should never lose something he pays points for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 meslessqr, Calm down. No rules set will ever be complete; no matter how detailed you get, there will always be interpretations required. Are you suggesting that this issue prevents people from running the Hero System? I hope not. As the book frequently points out, how you the GM runs things is most important. You already have a house rule for this situation -- and it's clearly a house rule, as the Line Developer has spelled out via a perfectly reasonable communications medium what the official rule is. There's no chance that the rule is going to change prior to a new edition, so the only point to this thread is to gripe about 2-3 points and slight lack of clarity that the rule robs you of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Monolith It also means that the character paid 12 points to go from a 3.3 SPD to a 4 SPD (5 to go from a 2.5 to 3 and 7 to go from a 3.3 to 4). He paid 12 points for the privilage of raising his SPD .7 points. SPD needs to run as a function of a total. 15 DEX gives 2.5 SPD +.5 to SPD for a 3 SPD. +8 DEX should then take the character to 3.8 SPD (his 2.5 base + .5 he paid for + .8 he gains from the extra DEX) because his new base is now 3, not 2.5. If you do not consider the base to be 3 then the character has just wasted the 5 points raising the SPD in the first place. Those 5 points are lost completely within the system, and that is not correct. A character should never lose something he pays points for. Monolith, please read my responses to you above, you are not calculating things correctly at all. The character spends 7 points (total) to go from SPD 3.3 to 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melessqr Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 As the book frequently points out, how you the GM runs things is most important. You already have a house rule for this situation -- and it's clearly a house rule I had a house rule... which I (and a whole slew of very intellegent, educated, and highly literate people with whom I've played) over the span of that decade had accepted as "The way it works", not as a 'house rule'. There are others that obviously produced the same interpretation of the rules from the words printed in both the BBB and the FREd. Now I have Another "House Rule" because the $40 software I bought will not support the "House Rule" that we'd lived with so happily for a decade. Now I'm told that everything I know is wrong, and the Rules I Bought aren't the Rules... but a Subset of the Rules, and that I am required to aquire additional materials to have a complete set of rules. Melessqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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