5th Edition Silver Age Superman on 250 Points

[Trebuchet]

I am very interested in Cassandra's builds. She does some really inventive things with the rules.

 

Hero System was built to emulate Superheroes from the Marvel Universe. Where Supers tend to for the most part be a lot more human and less godlike. We really start to push the envelope when we start to build the God like supers of the DCU. Some DCU heroes are easy to build in Champions and those tend to be the characters that would fit right into the MU. DCU characters are IMHO way too powerful to ever feel right built on a feeble 250points (heck or even 500 5e points). They are just not that kind of character.

 

Silver Age Superman (IOW, the Really Stupid Era Superman) was the most idiotically overpowered version; and consistently so poorly written that the writers in that era should have all been drawn and quartered. (31 flavors of Kryptonite! Being turned to straw! Blowing out suns with his freeze breath! Seriously!?) He would not only be essentially impossible to build in a point-based system like Hero, but even if it were attempted it would require thousands or tens of thousands of points.

 

You could make a reasonable Golden Age Superman (1938 to about 1950) with 250 points, but I think it would make more sense and be truer to the source material to start with the standard 350 points of 5E or 400 of 6E.

 

[Trebuchet]

Hugo Danner didn't have Kryptonian parents. He had a regular father who gave him some super-treatments.

 

The idea of a guy who is super-strong and invulnerable isn't exactly new. It's true that Superman was probably inspired by Gladiator a bit, but he's not a ripoff.

 

Oh, come on! Hugo Danner's scientist father gave him powers with a serum. Kal-El's scientist father game him powers by sending him to another planet. Their powers were identical. Gladiator was published in 1930; Superman co-creator Jerry Siegel read it in 1932 . He and co-creator Joe Schuster began developing Superman in 1934. The difference is that Superman, having a regular comic, evolved new powers over time. Hugo Danner, being pretty much limited to one novel, didn't.

 

Blatant ripoffs were notorious in the old pulp novels and comics. Admittedly the early Superman comics had other influences, most obviously Doc Savage (another offspring of a scientist father), including plots all but stolen from Doc Savage stories. Even Batman has more than a few elements of Doc Savage and Zorro. I've got no problem with any of that; I see it as cross-pollinization. I borrow scenarios and characters from comics and books for our pulp and superhero campaigns all the time; I love doing "classic" tropes. I'm just willing to acknowledge the geneology.

[bigbywolfe]

Your argument seems way too close for comfort to "this is the right or only way to do X".

 

No, not really. But while there is no "right" way to build almost any power, there are certainly "wrong" ways. A classic character like Superman being built with Multiform falls squarely into that category. That's not to say some other original character with a set of Superman-like powers might not be viably built with Multiform; just that Superman, with all of his powers always functional, cannot be.

I've seen people argue the same thing applied to Iron Man though, yet you are fine with that build. Where is the line drawn? Where you say it is?

 

Personally I don't like the Multiform build. I would never use it and probably wouldn't allow it in most games. But it might be fine for some campaigns and moreover it is certainly fine for a simple thought exercise building characters.

 

By your arguments Hyper-Man's build of Superman with a VPP of Kryptonian powers would also be "wrong" because he can't access every single power at the same time.

 

Can you list a single instance of Superman his full travel speed, full strength, his energy projection, and full defenses at the exact same time?

[assault]

Silver Age Superman (IOW' date=' the Really Stupid Era Superman) was the most idiotically overpowered version; and consistently so poorly written that the writers in that era should have all been drawn and quartered. (31 flavors of Kryptonite! Being turned to straw! Blowing out suns with his freeze breath! Seriously!?) He would not only be essentially impossible to build in a point-based system like Hero, but even if it were attempted it would require thousands or tens of thousands of points.[/quote']

 

It just goes to show how tastes can vary. 1958-59 was, in my opinion, Superman's most perfect era. That was when, in a matter of months, Mort Weisinger (the editor, not the writer, of the Superman titles) created characters and things like Brainiac, Bizarro, the bottled city of Kandor, Supergirl, the Legion of Superheroes, Titano the super-Ape, Lori Lemaris and all the wonderful and mad things that make Superman great. Many of these were more or less throwaway creations, only intended for use in a single story. And yet, people remember them 55 years later.

 

These books sold in massive numbers, too. They were also reprinted in other countries and in different languages, often years after their first appearance. (I first encountered them in black and white Australian reprints).

 

As far as power levels go - most of the really absurd feats can be ignored. Others are perfectly achievable in the Hero System. Want to drill a hole through the Earth? Hero can handle that easily. (Supergirl did that, possibly twice). Granted you need a VPP to cover Superman's full range of abilities, but it's not impractical to create a reasonable facsimile on a finite point total.

 

Not 250 points, though, although you can come horribly close - close enough to make it a challenge.

[Trebuchet]

I've seen people argue the same thing applied to Iron Man though, yet you are fine with that build. Where is the line drawn? Where you say it is?

 

Personally I don't like the Multiform build. I would never use it and probably wouldn't allow it in most games. But it might be fine for some campaigns and moreover it is certainly fine for a simple thought exercise building characters.

 

By your arguments Hyper-Man's build of Superman with a VPP of Kryptonian powers would also be "wrong" because he can't access every single power at the same time.

 

Can you list a single instance of Superman his full travel speed, full strength, his energy projection, and full defenses at the exact same time?

I wasn't addressing any build by Hyper-Man (which was never presented in the first place), but Cassandra's use of both a VPP and Multiform at the same time. She is in essence stacking two elements - Multiform and VPP - which in her build do the same thing solely for the purpose of shaving points, which is a clear violation of Hero system Metarule#6 (5ER, pg. 559).

 

Since Superman's defenses never change, they wouldn't be in any VPP or change in a Multiform anyway. Most of what she's trying to do could be handled with a Multipower or possibly a couple of them. As to Superman using "all of his powers at once", can you cite a single instance where what he was doing couldn't have been modeled with an EC?

 

Iron Man certainly has two or more "forms": Tony Stark and Iron Man (the number of distinct Iron Man forms - Space, Underwater, Hulkbuster, Stealth, Silver Sphinx, Mk. VII, etc. - would change over time) but there is a clear distinction between his human form and the suits of armor he puts on. Kal-El does not change forms, he has precisely the same powers as Clark Kent as he does as Superman (unless one counts his sometimes-invulnerable costume, which Clark wears under his street clothes anyway).

 

[Cassandra]

One part of the Silver Age Superman that is hard to simulate is his leaving Earth and encountering Aliens. For this he would need LS: Self Contained and FTL Travel or Flight Megascale 1 LY

 

A Multiform version of Superman could be considered if he's using a space craft. We saw this in the recent animated movie Superman Unbound (Recommended) and Superman The Animated Series.

[assault]

One part of the Silver Age Superman that is hard to simulate is his leaving Earth and encountering Aliens. For this he would need LS: Self Contained and FTL Travel or Flight Megascale 1 LY

 

A Multiform version of Superman could be considered if he's using a space craft. We saw this in the recent animated movie Superman Unbound (Recommended) and Superman The Animated Series.

Hence, my Supergirl has LS: Self Contained Breathing, and can easily buy an FTL slot in her multipower. I was planning ahead. Universal Translator would be good though - I had to skimp on her "super-intelligence" type stuff.

[Cassandra]

Question. Should Kryptonite be a Susceptibility, or a Vulnerability?

 

If it's a susceptibility then you have to get Regeneration otherwise Superman's could end up nearly dead for a long time.

[Trebuchet]

Question. Should Kryptonite be a Susceptibility, or a Vulnerability?

 

If it's a susceptibility then you have to get Regeneration otherwise Superman's could end up nearly dead for a long time.

 

IIRC in the Silver Age Kryptonite had harmful effects on Superman but none on humans, so that would make it a Susceptibility by default.

 

In all honesty, given the frequency with which he runs into Kryptonite, I think you could easily justify it being both a Susceptibility and a Vulnerability. After all, a Kryptonite bullet or Kryptonite laser would still harm a human just like more conventional ones; they would just do more damage to Superman.

[assault]

Definitely a susceptibility. A fairly small one, with relatively long time increments - it takes a fair while for it to kill him.

 

On the other hand, it incapacitates him fairly quickly.

 

I wouldn't bother with the vulnerability, although I would add a limitation to his defenses so they wouldn't stop damage from Kryptonite (and Red Sun) based attacks.

 

My Supergirl build partly reflects my thinking on the topic. I should get around to finishing the writeup to make it clearer.

[Cassandra]

A while back on the old forum I started a thread called "Gods with Off Switches . . . " which commented on Superman's Kryptonite susceptibility. In comic terms Kryptonite is used to make The Man of Steel helpless and put him in mortal peril. In game terms that's not so practical, as if all his powers can be shut down by Kryptonite, then all Luthor has to do is lure Superman into space and then expose him to Kryptonite, killing him instantly. Most of my builds have Kryptonite as a vulnerability, but those that do have a susceptibility have a Healing: Regeneration to deal with the damage Superman takes while exposed. No matter what point level you build Superman on you're going to run into the same problem.

 

The old saying "The Bigger they are the harder they fall" seems to have been written for Superman.

[Cassandra]

How helpless should Kryptonite make Superman? I mean would he have to rely on Valerie Perrine to save him from the Swimming Pool death trap?

[Trebuchet]

How helpless should Kryptonite make Superman? I mean would he have to rely on Valerie Perrine to save him from the Swimming Pool death trap?

 

The range of effects in the source materials is pretty broad, so I think it's probably better to determine Kryptonite as being more of a Plot Device and build it as a fairly powerful Susceptibility rather than assigning a concrete effect to it. Additional effects can be built into the scenario on a case by case basis.

[Cassandra]

So most of Superman's powers would have both a Doesn't Work in Red Solar Radiation (-1/4) and Doesn't Work in Green Kryptonite Radiation (-1/4)?

 

That's good for a fictional character, but as a character in a RPG it basically gives Lex Luthor and off switch, and only his cruelty allows Superman to live and get a chance at escaping.

[Trebuchet]

So most of Superman's powers would have both a Doesn't Work in Red Solar Radiation (-1/4) and Doesn't Work in Green Kryptonite Radiation (-1/4)?

 

That's good for a fictional character, but as a character in a RPG it basically gives Lex Luthor and off switch, and only his cruelty allows Superman to live and get a chance at escaping.

Well, if I was running an Earth-based campaign with Superman in it I would disallow the Red Sun Limitation because he's under Earth's yellow sun all the time.

 

The Green Kryptonite could be permitted as long as he still has the chance to use normal human strength, skills, and his wits to escape Luthor's latest death trap. Even for Lex Luthor getting hold of Kryptonite can't be a simple exercise, as is shown by the fact it doesn't show up in every Luthor scheme.

 

[Trebuchet]

Just a thought: I know you're using Kryptonite primarily as a Limitation to shave points, but wouldn't it actually make more sense within a campaign to simply define Kryptonite as an attack that only effects Superman? Perhaps a STR Drain combined with a Suppress of whatever Framework he uses to build his Kryptonian powers? Then it becomes a major Power for his opponents to acquire rather than a -1/4 Limitation which gives it too much value since Superman often goes literally years without encountering Kryptonite; whereas to give it the proper frequency in Hero he'd have to encounter it every 5th or 6th game session.

[Cassandra]

The Silver Age Superman had a number of powers

 

Super-strength

Invulnability

Flight

X-Ray Vision

Super-senses

Super-ventriloquism

Time Travel

FTL Travel

Super-speed

Heat Vision

Super-Breath

 

Lets break these powers down one by one

 

Super-strength - Anything over 20 STR is superhuman strength. If we discount the ability to move planets around (which is silly) 60 STR would certainly qualify

Invulnerability - This has two components. One is the ability to take damage without harm. A 20 rPD would make Superman bulletproof, for example. The other is Life Support in order to survive in High Radiation, High Pressure/Vacuum, Intense Cold/Heat.

Flight - Flight, with a Megascale Option for super-speed flight.

X-Ray Vision - N-Ray Vision Not Through Lead.

Super-Senses - PER +2 would have the same effect as Telescopic Sight/Hearing, and work for all senses as well.

Super-Ventriloquism - Mind Link with Any Willing Mind would do nicely with a No LOS option for Supergirl, and would also allow for universal communication when traveling to other planets.

Time Travel - Extra Dimensional Movement

FTL Travel - Flight 1", Megascale 10 LY (+3 3/4), Can Be Scaled Down (+1/4), Cost 10 Points. This works much better then FTL Travel because it can be scaled down and used for interplanetary flight as well. With it Superman can cross the entire Milky Way Galaxy in less the a day.

Super-Speed - Invisibility to Sight and running (Let's face it, that's how he uses it).

Heat Vision - Energy Blast.

Super-Breath - Telekinesis with Fine Manipulation.

[Cassandra]

So if Green Kryptonite is a susceptibility then it's bought as a Change Environment power.

[massey]

How helpless should Kryptonite make Superman? I mean would he have to rely on Valerie Perrine to save him from the Swimming Pool death trap?

Superman was actually fine. He just wanted her boobs in his face.

[massey]

It's possible to do a Superman Multiform. I think it gets a little tricky but shouldn't be too hard.

 

The problem is by talking about a "Silver Age" Superman you're talking about a 25+ year period of time, when Supes could do just about anything. I like a lot of the silly stuff that they had him do. Get into a fight with a wizard and get changed into a monkey? Sure! I like that a lot more than Iron Age comics where I hate all the characters.

 

The thing about the Silver Age is that Superman actually jumped up and down the power scale a lot, probably due to writers not paying attention or not caring. I've seen him shrug off nuclear weapons without getting his hair messed up and then turn around and get amnesia when he was hit by a lightning bolt. Rather than pull your hair out trying to get some rationalization for those differences, you could explain it away with a Multiform. Multiform in the sense that he's not actually changing into something else, but that his powers fluctuate apparently based on whatever he's paying attention to at the moment. I have previously posted a 250 point Superman in some older threads that made heavy use of multipower. Right now I'm getting a chance to play him in a 350 point 5th ed game and he fits the bill perfectly, and he's basically 100 points cheaper than everybody else but still gives the Superman feel.

 

​If I were to build Superman with a Multiform, I'd give him certain baseline stats in all his forms. I'd give him at least a 30 Str to represent him when he's not paying a damn bit of attention or actively trying to use any super powers. That still lets him pick up a small car without thinking about it when he drops his keys the same way we would tilt back the couch. This is "bumbling Daily Planet reporter" Superman. In this writeup he'd have his super-ventriloquism and super-hypnotism, superspeed typing, all of his reporter skills, and most of his super powers would have the Invisible Power Effects advantage (using heat vision at a low enough level that people can't see it, etc). He also has super-senses that are good enough to warn him if Metropolis is under attack, etc. He has to be durable enough to survive hits from super-grade attacks, but you don't really have to give him the full invulnerability package here. The Silver Age genre protects him to a certain degree (at most he's going to have to surreptitiously stop street crime, he's not going to get into a full fledged super fight in this mode). At most he'll get knocked back through a wall or something and can then change into a different form.

 

You would have your general "combat" Superman who has high stats and is designed for fights. This guy doesn't need all the Clark Kent skills, the super-hypnotism, most of the enhanced senses, or any of the out-of-combat tricks. He isn't going to be flying around the world to turn back time or pushing a planet.

 

Then you've got out-of-combat Superman. This IS the guy who can fly through time and push planets, repair bridges at superspeed and freeze Lake Superior with his super breath. He isn't gonna need much in the way of Dex or Speed, and probably not defense either. A 10 Dex, 3 Speed, 20 PD/ED character wouldn't be out of the question. He's not paying attention to that sort of thing at the moment.

 

You could have invulnerable Superman. He goes to this when he knows the villain is about to unleash his biggest attack, or when he's going to get hit by a nuclear bomb, or something where he's really got to show how tough he is. When he does this, he probably goes from 30 PD/ED (or so, depending on your campaign) to 100 PD/ED with Damage Reduction. This explains why he can generally soak hits from mega-villains without breaking a sweat, but on occasion some loser with a 12D6 energy blast can shoot him and actually cause damage. The exact execution of this is left to the player who builds it. Generally Superman should be able to switch between forms flawlessly, with no visual difference between the characters. If built right, there should not be many instances where an observer (not knowing the details of Superman's character sheet) says "that's weird, Superman suddenly seemed to fly a lot slower".

 

While the Silver Age wasn't quite as bad as the Superfriends, where Superman would occasionally fall in a pit because he apparently forgot that he could fly, there were occasions where he'd get caught totally flat-footed, or was hurt by an attack that really should have only tickled. He wouldn't hear someone sneaking up behind him, or his reflexes would seem really slow for a guy who can catch bullets and dodge lasers. This could at least explain some of that as Superman being caught in a Spd change or get caught by surprise in the wrong form. It's not that he's actually changing forms, it's that he has so many powers that he doesn't always think about using them all the time. As far as Kryptonite, it's had many different effects in many different appearances. Sometimes his powers go away immediately, sometimes they gradually fade. I think a combination of disadvantages, including Vulnerability, Susceptibility, and Accidental Change ( could work well. Some of his powers could have a -1/4 "not when exposed to kryptonite" could work as well. Again, it's all about execution.

[Trebuchet]

The Silver Age Superman had a number of powers

 

Invulnerability - This has two components. One is the ability to take damage without harm. A 20 rPD would make Superman bulletproof, for example. The other is Life Support in order to survive in High Radiation, High Pressure/Vacuum, Intense Cold/Heat.

 

Here I disagree only on scale. Superman is not only not harmed by bullets and shells, he doesn't even notice them - i.e.; he doesn't even take Stun. He's walked through military-style combat with dozens of bullets and even anti-tank missiles hitting him repeatedly with no more notice or concern than you or I would show if it was drizzling. This suggests, within the Hero System, that he needs a Resistant PD in the low 100's. (I'd probably go with about 150 rPD.) Oh, and I'd Harden it at least twice. A Hardened x2 rPD of 100 with 75% Damage Reduction would also work.

 

Obscene? Absolutely. But then Superman isn't about playability as a PC. Superman's true role is as a shining example of what being a hero is all about: Doing what is right. Superman isn't a great hero because he has powers above and beyond those of mortal men; he's a hero because he does the morally right thing, not the easy thing.

[Trebuchet]

It's possible to do a Superman Multiform. I think it gets a little tricky but shouldn't be too hard.

 

The problem is by talking about a "Silver Age" Superman you're talking about a 25+ year period of time, when Supes could do just about anything. I like a lot of the silly stuff that they had him do. Get into a fight with a wizard and get changed into a monkey? Sure! I like that a lot more than Iron Age comics where I hate all the characters.

 

The thing about the Silver Age is that Superman actually jumped up and down the power scale a lot, probably due to writers not paying attention or not caring. I've seen him shrug off nuclear weapons without getting his hair messed up and then turn around and get amnesia when he was hit by a lightning bolt. Rather than pull your hair out trying to get some rationalization for those differences, you could explain it away with a Multiform. Multiform in the sense that he's not actually changing into something else, but that his powers fluctuate apparently based on whatever he's paying attention to at the moment. I have previously posted a 250 point Superman in some older threads that made heavy use of multipower. Right now I'm getting a chance to play him in a 350 point 5th ed game and he fits the bill perfectly, and he's basically 100 points cheaper than everybody else but still gives the Superman feel.

 

​If I were to build Superman with a Multiform, I'd give him certain baseline stats in all his forms. I'd give him at least a 30 Str to represent him when he's not paying a damn bit of attention or actively trying to use any super powers. That still lets him pick up a small car without thinking about it when he drops his keys the same way we would tilt back the couch. This is "bumbling Daily Planet reporter" Superman. In this writeup he'd have his super-ventriloquism and super-hypnotism, superspeed typing, all of his reporter skills, and most of his super powers would have the Invisible Power Effects advantage (using heat vision at a low enough level that people can't see it, etc). He also has super-senses that are good enough to warn him if Metropolis is under attack, etc. He has to be durable enough to survive hits from super-grade attacks, but you don't really have to give him the full invulnerability package here. The Silver Age genre protects him to a certain degree (at most he's going to have to surreptitiously stop street crime, he's not going to get into a full fledged super fight in this mode). At most he'll get knocked back through a wall or something and can then change into a different form.

 

You would have your general "combat" Superman who has high stats and is designed for fights. This guy doesn't need all the Clark Kent skills, the super-hypnotism, most of the enhanced senses, or any of the out-of-combat tricks. He isn't going to be flying around the world to turn back time or pushing a planet.

 

Then you've got out-of-combat Superman. This IS the guy who can fly through time and push planets, repair bridges at superspeed and freeze Lake Superior with his super breath. He isn't gonna need much in the way of Dex or Speed, and probably not defense either. A 10 Dex, 3 Speed, 20 PD/ED character wouldn't be out of the question. He's not paying attention to that sort of thing at the moment.

 

You could have invulnerable Superman. He goes to this when he knows the villain is about to unleash his biggest attack, or when he's going to get hit by a nuclear bomb, or something where he's really got to show how tough he is. When he does this, he probably goes from 30 PD/ED (or so, depending on your campaign) to 100 PD/ED with Damage Reduction. This explains why he can generally soak hits from mega-villains without breaking a sweat, but on occasion some loser with a 12D6 energy blast can shoot him and actually cause damage. The exact execution of this is left to the player who builds it. Generally Superman should be able to switch between forms flawlessly, with no visual difference between the characters. If built right, there should not be many instances where an observer (not knowing the details of Superman's character sheet) says "that's weird, Superman suddenly seemed to fly a lot slower".

 

Why not just do it all with a really big Multipower? Have a decent "baseline" Superman, then have a huge MP with extra SPD, defenses, movement, attacks, etc., to ramp any of those up as needed.

 

[massey]

You could do it that way too. I'm just curious right now as far as an intellectual exercise.

[Hyper-Man]

You could do it that way too. I'm just curious right now as far as an intellectual exercise.

 

If you go down the Multipower path you usually end up at a VPP.

 

[ayinde]

The Silver Age Superman had a number of powers

 

Invulnerability - This has two components. One is the ability to take damage without harm. A 20 rPD would make Superman bulletproof, for example. The other is Life Support in order to survive in High Radiation, High Pressure/Vacuum, Intense Cold/Heat.

 

Here I disagree only on scale. Superman is not only not harmed by bullets and shells, he doesn't even notice them - i.e.; he doesn't even take Stun. He's walked through military-style combat with dozens of bullets and even anti-tank missiles hitting him repeatedly with no more notice or concern than you or I would show if it was drizzling. This suggests, within the Hero System, that he needs a Resistant PD in the low 100's. (I'd probably go with about 150 rPD.) Oh, and I'd Harden it at least twice. A Hardened x2 rPD of 100 with 75% Damage Reduction would also work.

 

Obscene? Absolutely. But then Superman isn't about playability as a PC. Superman's true role is as a shining example of what being a hero is all about: Doing what is right. Superman isn't a great hero because he has powers above and beyond those of mortal men; he's a hero because he does the morally right thing, not the easy thing.

couldn't you have saved yourself a lot of posts by just saying you don't feel superman is a playable character?