5th Edition Silver Age Superman on 250 Points

[Cassandra]

This Thread is my second attempt to built a Silver Age Superman on 250 Points.

[Cassandra]

The key is a 50 Points VPP, Cosmic (+2), Multiform Only (-1) 87 Points

[Trebuchet]

The key is a 50 Points VPP' date=' Cosmic (+2), Multiform Only (-1) 87 Points[/quote']

 

How do you justify a Multiform given that Superman certainly doesn't have anything even vaguely resembling alternate forms? He has exactly the same powers as Clark Kent as he does as Superman.

[Cassandra]

I've been thinking about that. It also violates my own goal of creating characters with a 60 Active Point Max in powers.

 

However, a multiform doesn't mean someone has to become a Dragon, or a Hulk. I've used it with Tony Stark to give him more versions of his Armor.

 

With Superman it is him changing from Standard Superman to Faster Then a Speeding Bullet Superman, and then to Power Powerful Then A Locomotive Superman.

 

Work in progress.

[Trebuchet]

I've been thinking about that. It also violates my own goal of creating characters with a 60 Active Point Max in powers.

 

However, a multiform doesn't mean someone has to become a Dragon, or a Hulk. I've used it with Tony Stark to give him more versions of his Armor.

 

With Superman it is him changing from Standard Superman to Faster Then a Speeding Bullet Superman, and then to Power Powerful Then A Locomotive Superman.

 

Work in progress.

Iron Man's armor is a reasonable creation with Multiform IMO.

 

Superman changing from Standard Superman to Faster Then a Speeding Bullet Superman and then to More Powerful Then A Locomotive Superman is just XP. Look at the earliest versions of Superman - he didn't fly; he jumped. He was bulletproof, and mostly fought corrupt officials and mobsters, not supervillains.

 

Superman is, BTW, an outright ripoff of a character from a book called Gladiator. I doubt it's still in print, but I read it online years ago. All the early Superman's creators did was change his origin and add a costume. The powers are totally identical.

[Cassandra]

I don't think Superman ever challenged God, and got blasted off the side of a mountain for it.

[Trebuchet]

I don't think Superman ever challenged God' date=' and got blasted off the side of a mountain for it.[/quote']

 

That goes to hubris and temperament, not powerset.

 

I think the protagonist in Gladiator got a much more raw deal than Kal-El so far as his parental units - both Kryptonian and human.

[Hyper-Man]

Powers in HERO are not saddled to special effect. If Multiform is good enough for Iron-Man then it's good enough for Superman. And aren't Iron-Man's abilities just a tech (sfx) version of Superman's? There is nothing wrong mechanically with using a Multiform approach to simulate Superman's abilities. It just seems like an overly complicated one (and I'm an expert on complicated!) that would require maintaining & updating multiple character sheets when spending XP.

[Lawnmower Boy]

I'd add that this is a Silver Age Superman. So, yes, he's got to be able to fly through outer space and shoot heat vision. If he couldn't, that would be a "Golden Age Superman" built on 250 points. Ideally, he'd be able to race a 250 point Flash, too. Cassandra's objective, as I understand it, is to deliver playable characters within the budget. It's a bit weird to see a Superman built on the same number of points as the Silk Spectre, but that's the point in an RPG, isn't it? If you want a "pointless" Superman, there's a fine build in Galactic Champions that clocks in at under 2000 points, and a ....troubled... one (no offence, Scot!) in VIPER: Coils of the Serpent that's under 1300, IIRC.

[Trebuchet]

Powers in HERO are not saddled to special effect. If Multiform is good enough for Iron-Man then it's good enough for Superman. And aren't Iron-Man's abilities just a tech (sfx) version of Superman's? There is nothing wrong mechanically with using a Multiform approach to simulate Superman's abilities. It just seems like an overly complicated one (and I'm an expert on complicated!) that would require maintaining & updating multiple character sheets when spending XP.

 

I beg to differ. The Hero system is explicitly tied to sfx; the rules clearly state that sfx are supposed to trump mere system mechanics. Yes, one could legally build a Multiform version of Superman which included "Heat Vision Superman" and "X-Ray Vision Superman" and "Freeze Breath Superman" and "Faster Than Light Superman" and "Planet Moving Superman" and "Time Traveling Superman" and "Utterly Invulnerable Superman" and "Immovable Object Superman" and a veritable host of Multiforms, but it would be violating a prime system metarule.

 

It would be just as valid to build Silver Age Superman as a human-sized Vehicle for a sentient race of Kryptonian DNA-equivalent molecules. If each crewman donates one point towards the "team vehicle" then Superman could be built with millions or even billions of points.

[massey]

I don't think Superman ever challenged God' date=' and got blasted off the side of a mountain for it.[/quote']

 

That goes to hubris and temperament, not powerset.

 

I think the protagonist in Gladiator got a much more raw deal than Kal-El so far as his parental units - both Kryptonian and human.

Hugo Danner didn't have Kryptonian parents. He had a regular father who gave him some super-treatments.

 

The idea of a guy who is super-strong and invulnerable isn't exactly new. It's true that Superman was probably inspired by Gladiator a bit, but he's not a ripoff.

[Hyper-Man]

Powers in HERO are not saddled to special effect. If Multiform is good enough for Iron-Man then it's good enough for Superman. And aren't Iron-Man's abilities just a tech (sfx) version of Superman's? There is nothing wrong mechanically with using a Multiform approach to simulate Superman's abilities. It just seems like an overly complicated one (and I'm an expert on complicated!) that would require maintaining & updating multiple character sheets when spending XP.

 

I beg to differ. The Hero system is explicitly tied to sfx; the rules clearly state that sfx are supposed to trump mere system mechanics...

 

Can you please cite a source (any edition) supporting this?

 

A general tenent of the rules is that the mechanics are sfx neutral. The classic argument is one Steve often uses in interviews: Hero Powers(mechanics) don't have a Lightning Bolt power, instead they have (Energy)Blast or Killing Attack(Ranged) that a player can then flavor to match the effect he wants a Lightning Bolt to have. Frameworks and tweener power/frameworks like Duplication and Multiform follow the same tenant.

 

 

 

 

[Hyper-Man]

I want to add one more thing.

 

For the record, I find the Multiform approach distasteful. But I'll defend the right to allow it as hard as one of my own builds only because I may find a square hole for that squaure peg to fit into at some point in the future.

[assault]

I've been mucking about with Supergirl builds again lately. In the source material Superman was shown as being in his prime, with all the skills, perks and so on that you could ever possibly want. Supergirl wasn't. She was a starting character - the kind starting point totals are supposed to produce. (Superboy is somewhere in between, but more like Superman than Supergirl).

 

Something Supergirl like can be produced on 250 points, but only she would only be playable in a game that reflected the comics she appeared on, or at most a low lethality Low-Powered Superhero game. (Or a Teen Champions one, of course). And, unfortunately, she would lose a lot of abilities. Giving her 350 points would bring her closer to what she should be.

 

BTW, she is, in my opinion, an example of a character better built under 6e than 5e.

 

In general, though, she has the problem that she is being built on the same point total as other characters that should notionally be less powerful, but have narrower and more focused power sets. Unless they are deliberately crippled relative to her, they are quite likely to be superior to her in ways that they shouldn't be.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Hyper-Man:

 

Can you please cite a source (any edition) supporting this?

 

A general tenent of the rules is that the mechanics are sfx neutral. The classic argument is one Steve often uses in interviews: Hero Powers(mechanics) don't have a Lightning Bolt power, instead they have (Energy)Blast or Killing Attack(Ranged) that a player can then flavor to match the effect he wants a Lightning Bolt to have. Frameworks and tweener power/frameworks like Duplication and Multiform follow the same tenant.

 

You've drawn exactly the wrong conclusion from Steve's example. True, the Hero System doesn't have a "Lightning Bolt" power; the character does. Voltage Man can use any of several game system mechanics to model his "Lightning Bolt" (EB or RKA or Flash or some other way) but the point is that he has it. That's why 5ER has an entire page on SFX (p. 96) and another (p. 97) on "Reasoning from Effect" to show the intent behind working backwards from the desired special effect. That's why Step 1 on page 97 is "Decide what sort of power you want to create by choosing the power's special effect." The player isn't supposed to say "I want my new character to have a 4d6 RKA!" as he begins creating his character; he's supposed to go "I want my character to shoot laser beams out of his eyes!" Nor are Powers supposed to be "sfx neutral"; the pluses and minuses of each unique sfx are simply supposed to balance out in play over the long term. The SFX are what ultimately define the power, not it's build.

 

SFX are supposed to be considered first, not last.

[Hyper-Man]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one Treb.

 

Your argument seems way too close for comfort to "this is the right or only way to do X".

[Trebuchet]

 

I want to add one more thing.

 

For the record, I find the Multiform approach distasteful. But I'll defend the right to allow it as hard as one of my own builds only because I may find a square hole for that square peg to fit into at some point in the future.

 

It's distasteful for a totally valid reason: It's a bogus way to build most characters. Multiform makes perfect sense if you're building Iron Man's various unique sets of armor or Bruce Banner/The Incredible Hulk. But it is absurd to consider it a way to model Superman, a character who only changes his clothes but always has all of his powers. It's as absurd as building Victory Man as a character with a 300 point "Transform (Major) Foe to Defeated Foe" power. Wouldn't be a very interesting fight now, would it?

 

The Hero system allows players to do almost anything, but just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be done. Sometimes the player has to exercise a bit of restraint; and if he doesn't then his GM has to. Players and GM's both need to keep in mind that this is a system designed to allow interactive storytelling. If it isn't going to provide an interesting game session, why bother playing at all?

 

[bigbywolfe]

Powers in HERO are not saddled to special effect. If Multiform is good enough for Iron-Man then it's good enough for Superman. And aren't Iron-Man's abilities just a tech (sfx) version of Superman's? There is nothing wrong mechanically with using a Multiform approach to simulate Superman's abilities. It just seems like an overly complicated one (and I'm an expert on complicated!) that would require maintaining & updating multiple character sheets when spending XP.

 

I beg to differ. The Hero system is explicitly tied to sfx; the rules clearly state that sfx are supposed to trump mere system mechanics. Yes, one could legally build a Multiform version of Superman which included "Heat Vision Superman" and "X-Ray Vision Superman" and "Freeze Breath Superman" and "Faster Than Light Superman" and "Planet Moving Superman" and "Time Traveling Superman" and "Utterly Invulnerable Superman" and "Immovable Object Superman" and a veritable host of Multiforms, but it would be violating a prime system metarule.

 

It would be just as valid to build Silver Age Superman as a human-sized Vehicle for a sentient race of Kryptonian DNA-equivalent molecules. If each crewman donates one point towards the "team vehicle" then Superman could be built with millions or even billions of points.

I would argue that not only do the rules not state that SFX trump mechanics, but that the rules put forth the exact opposite. We reason from effect, envisioning how an ability works and then using the mechanics to build that power.

[bigbywolfe]

Originally posted by Hyper-Man:

 

Can you please cite a source (any edition) supporting this?

 

A general tenent of the rules is that the mechanics are sfx neutral. The classic argument is one Steve often uses in interviews: Hero Powers(mechanics) don't have a Lightning Bolt power, instead they have (Energy)Blast or Killing Attack(Ranged) that a player can then flavor to match the effect he wants a Lightning Bolt to have. Frameworks and tweener power/frameworks like Duplication and Multiform follow the same tenant.

 

You've drawn exactly the wrong conclusion from Steve's example. True, the Hero System doesn't have a "Lightning Bolt" power; the character does. Voltage Man can use any of several game system mechanics to model his "Lightning Bolt" (EB or RKA or Flash or some other way) but the point is that he has it. That's why 5ER has an entire page on SFX (p. 96) and another (p. 97) on "Reasoning from Effect" to show the intent behind working backwards from the desired special effect. That's why Step 1 on page 97 is "Decide what sort of power you want to create by choosing the power's special effect." The player isn't supposed to say "I want my new character to have a 4d6 RKA!" as he begins creating his character; he's supposed to go "I want my character to shoot laser beams out of his eyes!" Nor are Powers supposed to be "sfx neutral"; the pluses and minuses of each unique sfx are simply supposed to balance out in play over the long term. The SFX are what ultimately define the power, not it's build.

 

SFX are supposed to be considered first, not last.

Choosing SFX first does not mean "SFX trumps Mechanics". It means you build the power the way you envision it working. If one person builds a character with a Lightning Bolt based on RKA, and another on Bolt, and another with Flash, and another with Change Environment they all have Lightning Bolts that function differently. They function differently because how they were built, and the person who built it with Flash doesn't get to declare they kill someone with their Flash based lightening bolt because lightning is lethal and "SFX trumps the mechanics used to build the power".

[assault]

Here is a rough draft of a 250 point Supergirl, literally transcribed from the back of an envelope!

 

I hope she is interesting.

 

Supergirl - First Draft

 

Val Char Cost

0 STR -10

10 DEX 0

10 CON 0

10 BODY 0

13 INT 3

10 EGO 0

10 PRE 0

12 COM 1

0 PD 0

2 ED 0

2 SPD 0

2 REC 0

20 END 0

15 STUN 0

Total Characteristics Cost: -6 Points

 

Cost Powers

4 +5 STR, Not in the presence of Green Kryptonite (-1/4).

37 +55 STR, Not in the presence of Green Kryptonite (-1/4), Not under a Red Sun (-1/4).

20 +10 DEX, Not in the presence of Green Kryptonite (-1/4), Not under a Red Sun (-1/4).

16 +10 CON; Not under a Red Sun (-1/4)

13 +2 SPD, Not in the presence of Green Kryptonite (-1/4), Not under a Red Sun (-1/4).

 

5 Courage: +10 PRE, to defend only

10 Stamina: ½ End STR, Not in the presence of Green Kryptonite (-1/4), Not under a Red Sun (-1/4).

 

31 Invulnerability 1: Armour 13 rPD 13 rED; Not under a Red Sun (-1/4). Possibly also: (Not versus Kryptonite or Red Sun based attacks (-1/4))

15 Invulnerability 2: Life Support: self-contained breathing, all Safe Environments; Not under a Red Sun (-1/4).

 

40 All Superman's Powers!: Multipower (60 Points); Not in the presence of Green Kryptonite (-1/4), Not under a Red Sun (-1/4).

30 Various multipower slots, Not in the presence of Green Kryptonite (-1/4), Not under a Red Sun (-1/4).

 

8 X-Ray Vision: N-Ray Perception (Sight Group) (blocked by lead); Not under a Red Sun (-1/4).

17 Telescopic Vision: +14 to PER Roll for Sight Group only to offset Range Modifier (21 Active Points); Not under a Red Sun (-1/4).

 

10 Various skills

Total Powers Cost: 256 Points

Total Cost: 250 Points

[Cassandra]

Not bad, Assault. My Version of the Maid of Steel.

 

 

Supergirl

 

Val Char Cost

50 STR 40

18 DEX 24

25 CON 30

10 BODY 0

13 INT 3

11 EGO 2

20 PRE 10

18 COM 4

20 PD 10

20 ED 15

4 SPD 12

15 REC 0

50 END 0

48 STUN 0

Total Characteristics Cost: 150 Points

 

Cost Skills

3 Acting 13-

3 Conversation 13-

1 FB: Press Pass

1 Navigation [Air] 8-

2 Rep: The Maid of Steel 11-

Total Skills Cost: 10 Points

 

Cost Powers

12 Damage Resistance 20 rPD 10 rED, Does Not Work During Red Solar Radiation Exposure (-1/4)

12 EC [Yellow Sun Energy]-15 Points, Does Not Work During Red Solar Radiation Exposure (-1/4)

20 1) EB 8d6, Variable Special Effects [Heat/Cold] (+1/4), 2x END (-1/2)

10 2) Flight 10", Variable Advantagers (+1/2), [Megascale 1km, 1/2 END, or Use Underwater Only (-1/4)]

10 ES: N-Ray Sight [Not Though Lead], PER +1, Does Not Work During Red Solar Radiation Exposure (-1/4)

6 ES: RPT, Gestures (-1/4), IAF: JLA Communicator (-1/2)

6 Healing: Regeneration 1 BODY/Turn, Does Not Work During Red Solar Radiation Exposure (-1/4)

8 LS: Extended Breathing [1 END/Turn], High Pressure, High Radiation, Intense Cold, Intense Heat, Low Pressure/Vacuum,

Does Not Work During Red Solar Radiation Exposure (-1/4)

6 STR +10, No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), Does Not Work During Red Solar Radiation Exposure (-1/4)

Total Powers Cost: 90 Points

 

Total Cost: 250 Points

 

150+ Disadvantages

10 DNPC: Lena Thorul, FBI Special Agent and Best Friend (Unaware Slightly Less Powerful) 8-

10 Hunted: Brainiac (As Powerful) 8-

5 PhyL: Undergoes Random Mental or Physical Changes Lasting 24 Hours When Exposed To Red Kryptonite (Infrequently/Slightly)

20 PsyL: Code Of The Hero (Very Common/Strong)

20 PsyL: Code Versus Killing (Common/Total)

10 PsyL: Must Live Up To Family Reputation For Achievement (Uncommon/Strong)

10 SocL: Secret Identity [Kara Zor-El/Linda Lee Danvers] (Occasionally/Major)

5 Suscept: Green Kryptonite Radiation, 1d6 STUN/Minute (Uncommon)

10 Vuln: Magic, 1 1/2x STUN (Common)

Total Disadvantages Cost: 250 Points

 

 

Notes

 

Her Characters are no effected by Red Solar Radiation because she gets her strength from the lower gravity on Earth compared to Krypton.

 

Kryptonite Doesn't Take Away her powers but it's radiation can slowly kill her.

 

Her Acting and Conversation are based on the only Jobs she really had, one as a TV News Reporter, and the other as a Soap Opera Actress.

[assault]

Once again my version is based at an earlier point in her career than yours. Mine is intended to be her pretty much straight out of the spaceship, or at least during her Superman's secret weapon period. She is, I suppose, the equivalent of a Teen Champions character. In fact, if you were really nuts, she could be reduced to 200 points, but she's not carrying a lot of fat, and the cuts would be deep.

 

A more reasonable variation would be to pretty much double her expenditures on everything, and make her a 500 point character! That would work pretty well. She still wouldn't be at her full Silver Age power level, but it wouldn't matter much. I'd be tempted to fix a few things at that point, though, and round her up to 600 points.

 

If I was to use her power set as the basis for a Superman build, and not bother filling the obvious gaps, the question would be: how much more expensive is Clark Kent as a character than Linda Lee? Frankly, I would be quite OK building Clark as a 100 point character - a capable reporter type, similar to Lois. That would give Superman a nice little edge on Supergirl - Str, Dex, Spd, a bunch of skills, the lot. But that wouldn't be enough. Silver Age Superman had been there and done that - as Superboy at the least. Another 50 points of skills and perks related to that would be appropriate, without going into bases and robots and so on.

 

So that's another 150 points that I would spend on Superman above and beyond what I would spend on Supergirl. He would be a 400 point character compared to her 250 points. And that's without plugging the gaps in her powers that I would justify as a result of her inexperience, and with a very conservative valuation of his skills and perks,

 

250 point Silver Age Superman is stretching things beyond what I consider reasonable.

[Trebuchet]

Your argument seems way too close for comfort to "this is the right or only way to do X".

 

No, not really. But while there is no "right" way to build almost any power, there are certainly "wrong" ways. A classic character like Superman being built with Multiform falls squarely into that category. That's not to say some other original character with a set of Superman-like powers might not be viably built with Multiform; just that Superman, with all of his powers always functional, cannot be.

 

[Tasha]

I am very interested in Cassandra's builds. She does some really inventive things with the rules.

 

Hero System was built to emulate Superheroes from the Marvel Universe. Where Supers tend to for the most part be a lot more human and less godlike. We really start to push the envelope when we start to build the God like supers of the DCU. Some DCU heroes are easy to build in Champions and those tend to be the characters that would fit right into the MU. DCU characters are IMHO way too powerful to ever feel right built on a feeble 250points (heck or even 500 5e points). They are just not that kind of character.

[Trebuchet]

The key is a 50 Points VPP, Cosmic (+2), Multiform Only (-1) 87 Points

Please explain what the alternate forms are supposed to be, since all of Superman's powers are all always available? "Clark Kent" isn't an alternate form, it's a successful and carefully prepped Disguise roll.

 

The 50 Point CPP Cosmic I can buy as a valid build; I just can't grasp the use of Multiform.