My players have become villians

[austenandrews]

Originally posted by ZootSoot

Walking away from a campaign is always the very last resort, because almost any campaign has untapped potential.

 

I'm of the opposite opinion. Walking away from a campaign is far preferable to a slow, lingering death. Life's too short for uncomfortable games.

 

-AA

[Beetle]

Re: Re: My players have become villians

 

Originally posted by Tasha

Personally, I think that your gaming group has issues with the campaign. Perhaps it is time to find out what they like and don't like about the campaign, so that you can fix the issues. If the players aren't having fun and you aren't having fun then you have things to work out. Perhaps some endorsement contracts for the PCs for that money and some licencing as well.

Bingo! It may be time for you to sit down with your players and have a "state of the campaign" discussion. In my experience, most times when players start doing really whacky things that turn a campaign upside down, it's because of unhappiness with the campaign. That will eventually kill any game.

 

Were there any warning signs that people were unhappy? In one fantasy campaign I was in, evil was so powerful that nothing we players did made any difference. This led to jokes about how we should start working for the evil queen, and cracks like "do you think she offers dental coverage" became commonplace. Sure it the comments were funny, but they were coming from deep frustration with the campaign (which didn't survive).

 

If it turns out that your players have some legitimate gripes, and they can be worked out, I would encourage you to wave the magic GM wand and declare that the session where they went bad never happened. Give the whole group a mulligan for that night ... it will be easier for everybody.

 

Remember, the whole point of getting together and gaming is to have a good time. If that's not happening, then changes need to be made.

[John515]

Quite frankly, the pattern of behavior was such that I don't think that giving everyone a mulligan would've fixed it. Having played in a few previous campaigns in different games/settings I think that it would simply happen again sooner or later. I spent a LONG time getting the campaign together and realized after having it undermined, that it was better to just put it away and save it for another group more willing to play in a superhero campaign. I regularly asked for input and got none. As far as I'm concerned, if they didn't like the campaign, they should have said something to me. By hijacking the game and turning to villiany, my players proved that they have no desire to play the game they agreed to play and, quite frankly, showed an utter lack of respect for me and for the work I put into the game. Too much work for too little fun. Better luck next time.....

[Enforcer84]

That's too bad. If they weren't willing to play the game why did they sign up?

you have my sympathies.

[Jhamin]

Hmmm.

 

I'm of two minds on this.

 

On the one hand, if nobody would offer any insight, then you did your best and they are a bunch of ingrates. It's is alot harder to run a game than it is to show up with a character sheet and some dice every week.

 

Oon the other hand, if you spent all this time and all this effort on "your" game, then they might have been protesting a percieved lack of inpact on the setting. I know I have had this happen to me in my games in the past. I have gotten so involved in my own plots and settings that the players started to wonder why they were there. Your tone of total disgust with them seems to imply some adversarial elements had slipped into this game well before the big blowup.

[John515]

Don't read too much into the "your" game thing. I certainly had the pc's backgrounds in mind when creating many elements of the campaign, as well as asking such specific questions as: "What kinds of things would you like to see in this game?" and "Do you have any suggestions?" and the ever-popular "Are you happy with how the game is going thus far?". How much more prodding does it take to get an adult to express an opinion or offer an opinion? Bottom line is this: if they were even remotely dissatisfied with THE game, then they should have said so. Given the numerous opportunities they were given to offer input, it would seem that I was doing an at least adequate job on my end.

 

Who knows? I could be wrong, maybe they were just shy and unable to assert their opinions.

 

 

 

But I don't think so.

[Beetle]

It's too bad that the players weren't more honest or mature about things. It's not nice to burn people like that. Kudos to you for not beating a dead horse, and realizing it'd be better to move on to something that would actually be fun.

[Mtinaro]

The Lights went Out

 

Ah the ever present opinion of the multitudes. Well time for my silly comments. Of course you will no doubt disreguard them as you are all hardcore dedicated players. Purists to the last drop too from the posts I have seen here so far.

 

I will attempt to enlighten you to the tragedy that occured. I will call this failed attempt at game mastering, John515's Game.

 

I played in this game. I have to say that some of you have caught on that the game was a miss completley. While everyone playing the game did not understand the rules to the most finite level, most of the players had a mild understanding of the game. This understanding of game mechanics did not occur until after the characters were forcefully manipulated, during creation I might add, by John515. I do not want to drop a load of bricks on John515, but I am afraid it must be done. Hopefully this small catastrophe will not be inflicted upon other players. *other players should defintely take note of this message before attempting to game with John515.*

 

The game was poorly set up from the start. I think enthusiam took the place of knowledge in this game masters planning. The players were regulated during chracter creation completely. All of the players were told that character designs they were planning to play were too powerful. Now I understand "the Golden Rule" (the gamemaster is running the show and therefore decide what is right or wrong_ this should be for rules questions and on the fly decisions). One player (not myself) was told his character would not work and he was then redirected to play an Iron Man type brick character. The character that wanted to be nothing more than a brick character(myself) was changed into an energy projector. The third character was also changed, this character was the one most of the time was spent on the creation. This third character was taken from the brink of being a mercenary/ vigilante type to being a darkeness based character and back to being a mercenary with no weapons and few darkness powers. I have to say that fromthe beginning these characters were distorted views of the players visions. When the brick character created a 14d6 attack it was quickly deemed as too powerful. This didn't seem odd at first, but when we faced nothing but vilians that were doing 14 to 16d6 attacks it definitely seemed odd. All characters were created with the same pool of points and the system is a point buy system, thus all players should be somewhat balanced no matter what they put the points into. This was the first thing we did not agree upon as players and gamemaster. I had hoped this was just a lack of insight but alas it was a game master flaw that could not be repaired. As each of us made our way through the book more we found that these characters could have been more concentrated in certain areas to allow us to complete our orignal character designs. Instead character creation was a farce at best.

 

I must move on or I will have to make a different post for each part of this story.

 

Game play was a bit rough for the first few weeks and you have no doubt by now seen some other posts reguarding many questions we had. I fel the game maste came to you as a whole for comforting on a weekly basis as he was struggling with how to run a game.

 

The game play never picked up for us a heros, every good deed we did was quickly found out to be a trick,(now the first time shame on us as players for believing anything anyone says, please remember at this time we are heros, but the second time and on it was just a slap in face), after this trickery started to pile up we become angst ridden heros that wanted all to be well, but were becoming disillusioned. The mayor and local government spared no expense in trying to get us killed be enemy villians every week, and when we asked about the reason for this the mayor became a bit violent. As a character and a player, My dreams of being a superhero were dashed. This started out to b something of a four color comic and turned into this goverment and world against the hroes thing. Then if the heros do anyhting to try to save anyone or help anyone it is a constant blame situation. As players we then decided that maybe it was time to remake this world(maybe this was a bit on the evil side, but at the same time we were looking to eradicate corruption in the government and military from the start, we just became a bit more proactive). We discussed it and decided on something of a plan, but talked among ourselves about it with the GM away from the table. The conversation ended with we would not go ahead with the plan unless the GM caused it by triggering it with some poor behavior by the press or the local government. Of course John515 could not resist another chance to show us how corrupt this society was and we quickly implemented our plan. This was done by my character telling the press that she was going to run for Mayor to hlp stamp out the corruption in the city as the local government was to corrupt for her liking. I then turned on the mayor using my most powerful Energy Projection and attacked her. This of course still did not outright kill her(see above about characters). We then took a local Mafia boss hostage and fled the scene. The game pretty much ended at this point. After a little more talking abt the new direction for the game the game master directed us to come up with some ways to deal with DNPCs and funds and story decisions. At this point it was really a build up of poor gamemastering that led us down the dusty trail, but alas do not let me put it all on our game master. We did take these actions and these things did happen. I do not think in any way shape or form that we hijacked the game from him. We reacted to what he was doing to us in the game. He still had complete control over the game. He could have gone in any direction. We could have been brought in by an anti government super agency, or joined the local Mafia. Futher more none of this was done so that we would have more combat or get more money or even to gain more exp. All previous ANALOGIES of us being D&D gamers are not valid. All said and done by the end we new as much about the system as the gamemaster. The game only went on for about 7 weeks. During that time we were tricked and repremanded about 6 times. I hoped that at somepoint we would be able to wash away the corruption of the government agencies in this game, but I guess that was not to be. *on a side note John515 told us on a weekly basis that it would be cool to run a villians game, and asked us when we would be going bad(when I say weekly I mean once every week that we played, a total of 7 times)

 

THE AFTERMATH.

 

Well after that week John515 took a week off. He had some excuse, but I do not remember it at this time. During this time he posted his original post for this thread. Most of you did you job in convincing him that he had been hoodwinked and that he had not landed on plymoth rock but instead it had landed upon him. As hardcore gamers you showed him the true meaning of life by talking him out of giving it a second try with this group. He might have had a rough first go of it, but that was alright with us we were willing to do watever he wanted. He came back the following week and let us all know that he was not going to continue playing rpgs and he was no longer having fun. He also cited that he was really busy at this part of his life, and we took these excuses at face value. We all offered to take our fair turn at runnin if he no longer wanted to run a game, but he declined. I am afraid that some of you at this board had broken his will to go on in gaming. There were a lot of bright lights at the end of this gaming tunnel, and John515 was never allowed to see them. Being the gaming purist that some of you are, you made it seem if there was no way to start over. That there is only one way to play Hero/Champions is the complete opposite of everything I thought the system stood for.

 

I wasnt going to post anything at all to this thread. I came here today to read John515's threads to see if he was starting another game somewhere or if he was looking to play again. I found that this thread had been responded to, since I had read it last. I read all of the new posts and wanted t otell you all my part of the story. I of course contacted the other players of the group and urged them to post as well. I know that they are not even registered on this board. I wanted to give a full account of our time spent in this game. After the game closed out we have all moved on to play other games. The main reason I posted again was to reply to the comments John515 made about us as a gaming group. I felt the comments were not warrented, but understand if he felt that way. I just don't understand why he did not face us, and instead came to the board to bring his thoughts to light. Since this is the forum he wished to paraly in, I accept. As for feedback I am afraid John515 never took any questions or feedback very well. He considered them to be hostile threats instead of understanding pleas. He took the mantle of GM vs. Players and wore it out completely. I never knew that was what roleplaying was about. I hope he gets the therapy that he so desperatly needs.

 

Please do not take this post as something of a flame as I am just putting forth what happened. I wish John515 the best, and hope he roleplays with us again. A good solid try, that could have been improved upon, but was never given a second chance.

[RandomPlayer01]

Another player of John515's Game

 

Ok I've heard enough of how we are such bad players and people so let me say a few things.

 

First, John did put a lot of work into his game. I have no doubts he tried to ease our group into the CHAMPIONS system to the best of his abilities. While it is an interesting system simulating a genre, I dont believe its the system for me. I dont have any problems playing a hero, but even a hero is "rewarded". I believe he said our characters turned evil due to no pay. This isnt true, its was a lack of reward, including simple gratitude, and a constant hassle. The source was usually a government of some sort who my character already had issues with. The best reward I got was from a convenience store clerk who was absolutely grateful when I caught his son's murderer. I felt really good after accomplishing this. They guy escaped prison the next week or so. Yay!

 

 

Second, lets talk about why people are heroes. Now of course it varies from person to person. Some people hear "the call" of duty. Others enjoy the fame and adoration of the people they protect. Some few even like the pay. Looking over this list I dont see any of these things were present in our game. As players, not even characters, there was no reward for playing. Every night we get to go risk ourselves and then get yelled at after police have called us to come help them. Obviously money isnt needed in this game as its useless from what we were told you can buy a cellphone to use in combat without spending character points. So it was all about the respect of others, and the feeling of acomplishing a good deed. the very first session I was the lab rat chosen to run through a mini adventure. Now we were all playing, but while others did their thing I had a villain ( normal human criminal) to track down. I went to his old neighborhood as I had no leads. Some punks threw bottles at me, when they challenged me I stood up literally walking to face the lead of the mini gang. They had nothing to say after that so I let them walk, no violence by me. I wandered into a convenience store to ask questions, turned out the owner son had been murdered by the guy. He gave some info and in a well roleplayed scene instilled a deeper desire for me to hunt this scum down. Long story short I was spoted outside their meeting, they loosed the dogs on me so I killed them with my only weapon a sword. I threw the carcass into the crowd of gunman while they stared at it I climbed to safety from my pinned spot behind a car. I managed to get the guy though everyone else escaped. I called the old man and let him know, he was abviously happy and I felt the reward of appretiation. That is still the best gaming session of them all in my opinion.

 

Third, what John515 doesnt tell you is that any time you try and suggest something is in your opinion flawed he very nearly takes it as a personal attack. After spending hours of game time talking about simple things it just became easier to let him say what he wanted and have his way. We discussed a great many things which were always bottom lined by him as we didnt know enough about what we were talking about. I am sure you have all talked to someone about something before where they were always right and you were always wrong......its not much fun and you get over it eventually.

 

Now John515, Im pretty hurt that you seem to feel we are incapable of playing a game about heroes. Dont come see our Saturday game then, as the good deeds flow like honeyed milk. There is no reason the group cant play heroes, your game just seemed to pummel us at every turn. If you really think that about us as people, I am shocked. Especially after playing with you, I mean youve done some underhanded things in some games. That doesnt mean its the way you are as a person though, it was merely an action a character who is driven by different things would do.

 

I truly think that the fatal flaw came in the form of communication. The players felt uncomfortable talking to the GM, and obviously he felt the same way as what I have seen posted here astounds me. He has never said anything coming close to what he has posted to us. If he had said he didnt want to run a villain game (which he actually giggled about and smiled saying it would be interesting the night of the events) and said he wanted to start over I woulda been more than happy to. I rather expected it until I read the boards at the direction of another player. The leader of the character group was the one who enacted the plan, I sorta followed and actually the third person didnt do much of anything but watch in shock. Noone said they wouldnt give it another shot assuming we *could* discussed things but it was not to be.

 

 

I hope, sincerely, that these posts were made from frustration and heat of the moment typing. I thought we were friends, but I know I dont talk about my friends the way you talk about us on this board. Even after this all went down I sent you an invitation to our new game. Of course your genereic reply of maybe maybe not wasnt unexpected but you were welcome none the less. I certainly wouldnt wish to talk to you today, but after that I'll be over it and you are still very welcome to play with us if you care to. I respect the fact the game didnt go well, could have been ended better, and is gonna be a sour spot.

 

 

A few comments from this board:

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Vorsch " The gold in champions is...Respect

from the public from the authorities from the vilains"

 

I agree. We recieved none. After the first session we got respect only from one another. To the police we were the poeple who got sent in when they didnt wanna risk themselves. To the mayor we were the team that validated her cities claim to elite status. Nothing more.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Beetle "Were there any warning signs that people were unhappy? In one fantasy campaign I was in, evil was so powerful that nothing we players did made any difference. This led to jokes about how we should start working for the evil queen, and cracks like "do you think she offers dental coverage" became commonplace.

 

Thats amusing! =) Often we asked "Do you think Viper would just let us work for them, I mean we are doing all their work anyway" during the string of trickery where we couldnt trust anyone who spoke to us.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Several of you said other negative things but I am gonna move on past those. I dont feel it would be proper for me to comment on them after all you said them after listening to a single sided story by the Gamer Master. Lets be honest noone ever wants to be wrong or at fault so its not suprising to see him say nothing was his fault. I think all parties involved could have easily fixed things, but for whatever reasons didnt. I dont claim to be squeeky clean as superman but I dont think Im any gritier than batman either, same with the GM and other players. Good gaming to you all!

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

Edited: HERO to CHAMPIONS to properly name the system.

 

Good times and bad times,

A very retired Black Hand

[Blue]

I had a much longer post but ultimately edited it down.

 

I'd just like to say that I'm sorry to hear that your experience was so bad. If we were reactionary in our thinking as it relates to the "evil players", it's because that's the only side that was presented to us.

 

Hopefully you'll have a better gaming experience with Hero System, obviously using a GM who is more conducive to what you want to do. Stick with it either way; with the right GM for you, you won't be sorry.

 

Stories like this make me happy to be among a group of players who enjoy what the GMs run, and a group of GMs who have only the players' enjoyment at heart.

[Maccabe]

EVIL PC's

 

First I must ask, WHY?

It might be normal for a misunderstanding to cause a PC hero to have to go 'into hiding'. But I have found that PC's cannot play evil too well or too long, it's just a matter of time before the end of their careers.

Motivation-Agreed- perhaps they would be better off playing some hack-n-slash game where they could play evil characters and get away by hiding in a Dungeon protected by a Dragon??

 

Also do you want to run Villian PC's? (You have say in this too)

[projecktzero]

Hindsight is always 20/20

 

I'm no expert on this, but the GM and players need to know what is expected of each other.

 

The GM and players need to understand what type of game they are going to be playing. i.e hack 'n' slash, long campaign, series of unrelated adventures, roleplaying, highly lethal, humorous, ...

 

The GM should discuss with the players what type of game the GM would like to run. Create a handout or put up a web site.

 

Bottom line is that everyone should have fun. If they aren't having fun, then there's a problem.

 

Robin's Laws of Good Game Mastering is a good book that helps the GM determine the types of players in the game, so the GM can tailor the adventures to make all the players happy.

 

GM Secrets is pretty good book too. It covers many aspects of GMing.

 

Rolplaying Tips Weekly is a great e-zine with a wealth of information.

 

Finally, Uncle Figgy's Guides are a must read for anyone who's interested in RPGs.

[farik]

Re: Another player of John515's Game

 

Originally posted by RandomPlayer01

I have no doubts he tried to ease our group into the HERO system to the best of his abilities. While it is an interesting system simulating a genre, I dont believe its the system for me.

 

I'd like to say "STOP!" I don't believe you've really played the HERO system. At most you played Champions which is one type of HERO game (admitedly it's the most popular type but still). We're just wrapping up a fine espionage game and we're about to start playing Fantasy Hero. Please don't let your experience with an unsatisfying campaign ruin your opinion of a fine game system.

[Mtinaro]

Thank you and more

 

Thank you for your kin comments that wish us to try the Hero system yet again. I hope we can quickly move righ into working on fantasy hero, or quite possibly a espionage game. I welcome these attempts. I hope all are as kind and friendly in the future. As to the ones of you that still beckon us to leave your purist realm, I hope you find your just rewards.

[Emerald Mask]

If any players of this game took my comments as harsh -I am sorry . I was responding to what was posted . My philosphy on lousy Gming is vote with your feet. -Leave the game if it is consistently bad and the gm will not change it.

[projecktzero]

Originally posted by Emerald Mask

My philosphy on lousy Gming is vote with your feet. -Leave the game if it is consistently bad and the gm will not change it.

 

You are not alone in that philosophy. Even Uncle Figgy suggests it. You'll find another gaming group.

[John515]

Here we go again.....

 

My god, it's come to this: he said, she said..... Fine.

 

DISCLAIMER: This post in in no way meant to offend, insult, or in any way cause harm to any person/s who decide to read it. While those involved in it's creation are probably going to be anyway, I wish to reiterate that I bode them no ill will and bear no grudges for any actual or perceived actions which may or may not have occured during the campaign in question. (I hope that about covers it.)

1. I will concede that the players probably did not intentionally set out to undermine the game out of spite. I never actually believed that anyway. I am certain that the reasons for their doing so had more to do w/frustration at their supposed inability to affect the game in the way they saw fit. That being said, I will readily admit a GMing shortcoming of mine that I will not repeat in any future game I run: "The gold in Champions is....Respect". I should probably have backed off of the "The city is corrupt and the players are the only one's who aren't" aspect of it and given them an oasis in the form of public adoration or something. Point taken, folks.

 

2. The "adversarial" relationship that "existed" had more to do with my inability to make the players understand the reasons behind setting campaign limits and why they are important to gameplay. Can anyone else explain to these guys why a 20d6 double knockback attack is unbalancing in a standard 350pt game? How about 50pd/ed? 80STR? How about all at the same time?

 

3. No one was "forcefully manipulated" during character creation. You said so yourself in another post under HERO system discussion>Rules question follow up:

"There is good balance in our group and no Min/Max going on. No power-gaming. John515 created characters with us and made sure we did not stray by concentrating on unbelievable stats or broken power combinations(even though I looked for them). I must applaud him at every turn. I even liked the way he ran the situation that this post is about. I just didn't understand it. I do now."

 

My efforts in helping the players create their characters were my best attempts to marry the concepts with established guidelines and game mechanics. The biggest issue seemed to be that since HERO is a point-based system, as long as the character is built on the same about of points, it must be balanced! Quoting Mtinaro again:

"All characters were created with the same pool of points and the system is a point buy system, thus all players should be somewhat balanced no matter what they put the points into. This being the first thing we did not agree upon as players and gamemaster. I had hoped this was just a lack of insight but alas it was a game master flaw that could not be repaired."

If someone could please explain it, I would love to hear another side of it. Apparently, Fred doesn't do an adequate enough job of it on pages 338-339. Neither does Champions on pages 57-58, nor in chapter four in it's entirety.

 

4. One character in the game (the only other one to have ever played before) was going to play a ghost....as a hero. Fair enough, I explained to him that it would be very difficult to do it, but we could try. I SUGGESTED another type of character (as did the rest of the group), so he did. What's the problem? The other players were as puzzled as I was about his original choice. You will note, however, that I made an attempt to fish for ideas regarding how incorporate a character like this into a game in my post entitled "One of my players wants to play a ghost". This thread was obviously started as an attempt to railroad the player into playing something else and was by no means an attempt to make the players character conception work within the campaign. Yeah, right.

 

5. The Third character you refer to to in your post, Mtinaro, was a really tricky character to pull off, even for an experienced player. I spent HOURS on the boards and in the chat rooms talking to DOZENS of players about the best ways to put the player's concepts into character form. His initial build was not as effective in combat due to his inability to damage his foes. In hindsight, I should've just added damage classes to his sword attacks and let it rip. The redesign was the players idea, not mine.

 

6. Of course the villians had tougher attacks than you did. Defenses, too. So what? You still beat them, right? Do you remember why? Because you all worked together AS A TEAM to bring them down. Combined attacks are a wonderful thing. Coincidence? I designed every single encounter with two things in mind: to advance the plot and teach you game mechanics and tactics. Guess what? It worked. You guys got to be pretty effective very quickly. You're welcome.

 

7. Game play was a little rough for the first couple of weeks. I told you it would be, but to bear with me and I would work hard to shake all of the rust off. Yes, I went to the boards for what you called "comforting" on a weekly basis as I was "struggling" with how to run a game. I spent the time on the boards and in the chat rooms asking for advice on how to be better at what I was doing for YOU, the player. I correctly figured that the more insights I had, the better the game would evenually be. What a bastard I must be, to spend so much time trying make to the game you simply show up to (at your home) that much better. Apparently, you were still pleased with the results, as evidenced by the quotation above.

 

8. Mtinaro probably should not have posted a response to my original thread, even though I invited you to. While I attempted to express my dissatsifaction with how the game went, I did not resort to "warning other players (to) take note of this before attempting to game with (me)". Nor did suggest that anyone seek "therapy he so desperately needs". Sounds like a flame to me, Marcus Tinaro.

 

Gary Shatraw's response to my post(as RandomPlayer01) seemed to have a different slant on things. I will address his post as well:

 

1. Your point about heroes rewards are mentioned in the earlier part of this post. Your criticism, while late, is dead-on and duly noted.

 

2. The "suggestions" about what was flawed had more to do with most of the same things that I discussed earlier in this post. Perhaps a reread of the suggested pages/chapter would be better than my telling you. I am 100% sure that it would clear everthing up. As you said:

"We discussed a great many things which were always bottom lined by him as we didn't know enough about what we were talking about."

I am assuming you are referring to rules and how they were applied to a given situation or about the genre itself. I'm not totally sure what you mean here, so forgive if I have taken your quotation out of context.

 

3. I absolutely do not feel that you guys are unable to play heroes. Of course I have done some underhanded things in other games we played in, I was playing the characters. An ambitious Nosferatu, who was being actively undermined, a Rogue in charge of the local underworld (with you as the knowing mayor ;-)). I also played a Paladin who disobeyed her god by refusing to deny your character what I felt was rightfully yours to keep. I would love to see a game where we were all playing a heroic campaign.

 

4. Yes, I did mention that a villian game would be interesting to run SOMEDAY. Fer' chrissakes, I didn't think you would actually just do it on a whim! The leader (Mtinaro) was, in fact, the one who initiated the whole villian thing, tho....

 

5. Yes, Gary, the posts were made from frustration. At having spent literally days doing nothing but try to create a game for the players to enjoy only to have it trashed on a whim with no apology or remorse. We are, of course, friends. Which why it pissed me off so much. Until this post I have kept the ID's of those anonymous, so as to keep from pointing fingers in "public". Your roommate seems to think otherwise.

 

At long last, the end of this post is just around the corner. I have only this say and will leave it all behind me for good:

 

These players are still buddies of mine, regardless of what happens in the game. IT"S ONLY A FRIGGIN" GAME! I look forward to gaming with them again in the future and hope they feel the same way.

 

Thus endth the post.

[Speedball]

Does anyone else feel like they're watching a marriage dissolve?

[farik]

This kind of game group explosion can be a good thing as everyone involved realizes the complexity of the GM player dynamic. I'd encourage giving the current GM a break and having other people run some one shot scenarios until emotions have cooled than after a few beer and pretzel sessions start a new campaign with everyone contributing to the setting. In our Fantasy campaign we're setting up we're having everyone make characters without a firm world description in place and we're going to fill in the details based on the characters for instance of someone takes "dis feat extreme reaction: Ogre " then that establishes that Ogres are easily recognized and cause an extreme reaction. A fellow GM did the same thing with a Superhero game and that established a prejudice against mutants while there was praise for altered humans (conversly the government felt the opposite way about both groups). It's an intersting campaign setting and not only did everyone get to play the character they expected but they can feel invested in the campaign world.

 

As far as failing to accept campaign limits I try to keep the same campaign limits in place for both Players and npcs. More powerful NPCs are usually more skilled or more diverse rather than doing more damage or having higher defenses.

[Blue]

Originally posted by Speedball

Does anyone else feel like they're watching a marriage dissolve?

That about says it. While this is mildly entertaining to us bystanders, it does remind me of the phenomenon where people take their personal problems and confront each other on national TV. I think Jerry Springer might be more suited to this thread than me. I'm just going to watch now... and duck the flying chairs.

[Magmarock]

There are always two sides (at least) to any conflict.

 

Now that we've heard from a couple of the Players, and after re-reading the original thread, I am seeing this in a whole different light. Something that hadn't occurred to me before was the title of this thread "My Players have Become Villains..."

 

Players can't become villains, although their PCs can. I think a major part of the the problem here is that neither the GM or Players are willing to step back and look at the game session from an omnipresent point of view... something that should be done at the beginning of any new campaign:

 

I see a GM that didn't listen to his players when they said they wanted to run a certain type of character (i.e. Brick altered to EB, etc. I liken this to someone being forced to run a cleric when they really wanted to run a mage). I see Players willing to conspire against the GM rather than have a serious discussion (waiting until the GM is out of the room). I see a GM that shoehorned the PCs into a campaign that only he was comfortable with. I see Players willing to make their PCs go to an extreme action rather than using logical, everyday resources (not everyone is evil or in the conspiracy- what about the PC Contacts? Other Heroes? The news media? Or trying more covert tactics, just to name a few. There are always more options than turning to the mafia for work.). At the very least, someone could have turned to the GM and ask, "What the hell are you trying to do to us?"

 

It is more than apparent that there were extreme levels of frustration going on here. Roleplaying any game should be a collaboration, not a contest. The GM is never supposed to be against the Players nor vise versa, and if it ever comes to that, then the game is being played wrong! Even in games that pit Player verses Player, the GM is still an omnipresence. A judge. A referee. The GM's job is to make sure everything is running smoothly, to keep the story moving forward, to run ALL NPCs in such a way that they are not included in the GM's omnipresence.

 

Sure the game should be challanging... the PCs shouldn't be able to waltz through each and every adventure or scenario, but they need to win sometimes. Some Players need their PCs to win even more than that... so gauge the wins in such a way that they won't be frustrated. The GM must be willing to let his NPCs lose in the end- some right away, others after a long, drawn out story-arc. And the Players must be willing to allow their PCs to be captured once in a while (hell, in Champions it is a well-known convention that a hero needs to be captured in order to hear the villain gloat about his latest nefarious plot, just so the hero can escape and foil his plans!). Bad things happen to every PC, it's what makes their lives interesting, but that needs to be tempered so that the PCs won't give up on everything they believe in, on what makes them heroes in the first place.

 

As a GM, I have been upset on one or more occasion when my idea of how a plot should be resolved was tossed out the window or completely ignored. I've even ended campaigns over such incidents, although now I regret doing so because ultimately, this is just a game. As a Player, I have been guilty of not talking with GMs, away from the gaming table, to voice my concerns... the last time as recently as 6 months ago. I regret not being able to play in a great game with a bunch of great people, because I was unwilling to talk to the GM until I was too angry and ready to quit. In the future, I won't bottle it up... that is something I have learned from this thread.

 

 

My advice to you guys is to be willing to give and forgive, but not forget; Use this as a learning experience of how not to play the game. Set down parameters before creating new characters. Decide on the power level, style, and game environment- look to the comics for examples and make sure everyone is on the same page as for what to expect. Make sure each PC has something special they- and only they- can do, so the PCs aren't redundant. make sure each PC get their chance to shine and this, hopefully, at least once each gaming session! Let each Player play what they want... it is there game too. Allow for the GM to confound the PCs and, yes, the Players too (but only pertaining to the scenario) because this is still a ~game~ and there are things the PCs must figure out on their own (challanges, riddles and tactics). Even if the GM is aware of the PC's plans, the villains shouldn't be unless they are actively spying on the PCs- and then there should be some way for the PCs to discover this. The one thing the Players should never have to figure out on their own is the rules of the game or how something works, and thus they should never be punished for metagaming mistakes. (Punish is a harsh word, and also, Players should never be punished for anything. Period.) So let me rephrase that: "thus the PCs should never be made to pay for metagaming mistakes (Just in case you don't know what metagaming means, see the end of this post for examples) .

 

I hope this can be resolved. From what I read, the Players were being introduced to a new game system, and there was no mention of whether they ever played this genre before, or even what the other games they play are. Super-hero gaming is like none other- the style cannot equate to any other genre although some aspects may come close- so for first timers (both Players AND GM) it takes an adjustment period.

 

Well, my minirant has gone on long enough. I shall end it here.

 

Cheers!

 

Mags

 

Metagaming terms vs In Character (IC) dialog:

 

1)

Captain Starburst to his team members: "Wow, team! That Brick is Muscles the Maniac and he has an 80 Strength so be careful approaching him! And I know what I speak of, since my other character, Prime-Rib, fought him before and was pasted by a 4th edition haymaker!"

 

Verses

 

Captain Starburst to his team members: "Wow, team! This dastardly villain is Muscles the Maniac and I've heard he is on par with Grond in strength! Be careful when approaching him! He bested Prime-Rib in a one-on-one match last summer!"

 

 

2)

"I am the Archmage of Doom, Montre De'LaMort and I am a 27th level, specialized wizard in the school of Necromancy... so fear me!

 

Verses

 

"I am Montre De'LaMort, the Archmage of Black Death. My powers far surpass your collective realities, do-gooders! Face me and die!" Pause. "Oh yes... you may fear me, too, I give you permission!"

 

3)

Speedbug the Shrinking Speedster to Sledgefist, in a fight: "What? You get to go again? I thought you were only a Speed 4?"

 

Verses

 

Speedbug the Shrinking Speedster to Sledgefist, in a fight: "Damn! You are way faster than I thought!"

[Mtinaro]

Peace at Last

 

I will go ahead and start this reply with something of a bucket of water. I hope my last post was taken as opinion and not pure flame. John515 I can not agree with you more. I have on the boards applauded your strengths and complimented you. A number of times in fact. An opinion is just that an opinion. There are no facts to be dealt with here. I try to put forth my truest feelings on the situation. There is no reason we can not go ahead and disagree on something.

 

I do not agree with you about the character creation system. I know that there are numerous passages in the different rule books about making sure the characters are balanced. Just because I disagree with them does not mean at the table I would not be happy with any tight reigns you put on the game.

 

I felt you ran the game well. I think the breakdown came when things did not go as expected. I think as a GM you must be willing that you impact the world as much as the players. Every time you do something in the game you set the standard or the limit. The only time players feel betrayed is when the same limits are not observed by npcs. Our story was just that our story. I felt we could have gone in any direction from that point even if that direction was to retire the my character, the villan that tried o kill the mayor. I do not like to think of the character as a villan, but more as a disgruntled hero. In my caracters history she was part of a team that broke apart fromt the same situation(disgruntled heros, gritty types)

 

I think that if you want to you can spend all of your points where ever you see fit, adn the game master can then focus on showing you the reason to make balanced characters. Think of it like this. The min max type character has minimums most of te times these are fighting characters. They are designed to dish out ad take the most damage. Maybe even the fastest around to boot. The only problem is that there are still attacks/defenses that ignore all of the powers. The first time the superguy hits one of these if he/she is a competent player she/he will quickly decid wht to spend exp on in the future. While other characters are becoming more adept at what they do that character will be playing catch up just to have the defense or ability to attack. This is wy I believe that points could be spent anyway needed. Of course you could regulate the world to the point that the max ep is 14d6, but try to stick to that so the players and the npcs no what to expect. Then when an exception occurs it is meaningful. I can see a min max player making a defense heavy EP character with 18d6 blast. You are correct in limiting this. That would be a balance issue if all the npcs and other players were not given the same chances. Thats where the balance comes in. The combat is epic anyway.

 

I do appreciate all of the work you put in to the game. We had no intention of trashing your game or destroying your desire to continue to run a game with us. We were just reacting to the situation. I do not mean you gaming style, but just the actions inside the game world. I know what it takes. I have emailed and called players for years to ask them questions about things they did the week before. I do research and I plan, but I find that ometiems you just have to have a story and make do when things go south. It is sometimes hard to convince everyone that the muesem needs defending when they want to protect the city and the best way to do that is to split up.(not based on your game at all).

 

We all welcome you to come back and play anything with us. We currently have the same night open(a void since your departure *sniffle*). We even have someone else who will run a game if you need the break. As a GM I know you can get to a point when you want top smash the players heads in. Why dd you kill key npc?(err nothing else was happening) You havent run alot of games, and surely this was the first time you ran with our group. Just give us a little bit of space.

 

I still had many suggestions for things we could do after the crazy hero killed the mayor. Anything would have been fine with me even playing another character that hunted my old character down. I have the mechanics down now and was willing to try with another character if you did not want thedisgruntled one. The other players were also all open to anything that you want to do. Gee, I even hate to say this part, but you could have made it all a bad dream(eek Dallas). With the disclamer hey guys something didnt go right last week lets work that through and talk about why you did that and see if we can change something. I am sure even Superman wants to kill Luthor ever now and then. Of course he doesn't, but maybe he has an X-men style danger room (fortress of solitude) where he blows off some steam. Batman still hasn't killed the Joker. You get the general Idea.

 

Like I said before I want you to game with us. I hope you will get your busy life cleared up so we can play something. Currently tere are rumblings of D&D making its way to that night.

 

On a side note not directed at John515 at all.

 

Some Gamer history from me.

 

I started playing D&D in 1982. I also played the James Bond, Gamma World, Teenage Mutant Ninga Turtles, and a few others in the 80's. Later I moved on to play Rifts, Vampire(not the creepy goth kind, John515 played that with us up until recently), I have even played Mage, Gurps(lots of genres), and RoleMaster. There are many more I am forgetting. I have run all of these games except for rolemaster. I love gaming, and play a lot of games. I have never considered myself a hardcore gamer. I find that I like the beer and pretzle gaming. I like to get together and have a great time. I even get off subject once in a while(might be underplaying this part a bit). I hope this history gives you a little bit of insight into my history. :D

[Ghost who Walks]

Huh. For some reason I never responded to this thread. I hit all the other "players did something I didn't like" threads that popped up when this one did, but not this one.

 

HERO is an interesting system, in that it is virtually unlimited. You can have as high of stats as you want, The only limit being paying for them. I was once in a campaign where a player character had 350 STR. It didn't last long.

 

In HERO, the only way to prevent what is called "inflation" is for the GM to put artificial limits on players. This is because every game has people who want to try and make the most awesome character they can. In some genres, you have to plunder the dungeon to do this. In the HERO system, you just spend experience.

 

I see plenty of blame to share for this event.

 

The players did seem to have some communication problems with the GM. In frustration, they did things they probably could have avoided.

 

The GM did make an error in apparently developing the player characters after he had developed his campaign world. They should be developed in conjunction. This allows the world to be adapted for the characters, and creates a story-like environment.

 

So far as the members of this forum. As supposed fans of the HERO system, it is dependent upon us to help spread the system around. More people buying and using the HERO system means more products will be produced for it, which we can then enjoy. It also creates a strong player base.

 

The release of 5th edition has created new people, playing our system. We need to encourage this, and help new players and GMs when we can.

 

I see this as the most important purpose of these forums. That, and getting ideas for my own campaign when I'm stuck.

[Magmarock]

Here, here, Ghost! I am in much agreement with you.

 

But seriously, dude, you don't have to walk... can't you take a bus or something?

 

 

Mags

 

PS: Taxis are cool, too!

[bubba smith]

Re: My players have become villians

 

maybe the'd rather play a dark champions espionage or caper hero game