Immunity to Siblings mutant power

[bubba smith]

the acronym RAW means Rules As Written

[steriaca]

Let's see... from Advanced Player's Guide page 87, Damage Reduction ("Special Effect Rule", Resistant, 100%, at 120 Active Points, Limited Power (Only Usable Against Character X's Super Powers: -2), 40 Real Cost.

[Hugh Neilson]

Limited Defenses tend to be vastly overpriced for their effect. I would not suggest that Damage Reduction (Special Effect Rule, Resistant, 100%, Limited Power (Not Usable Against One Single Character's Super Powers) be costed at 80 points (ie a 1/3 discount because one single character is not blocked by those defenses). 80 + 40 = 120, which is the unlimited power, and I think the "not against one thing" and "only against the same thing" values should sum to the total cost of the ability, or close to it.

 

How much impact will this actually have in the game? If the answer is "virtually none", chalk it up to special effects and move on.

 

Actually, it would be great to see the Hero explanation of "reason from effect" expanded to refer to costing of abilities. If the effect of the ability on the game will be negligible, the costs should be similarly negligible.

 

"Personal Immunity should be a 5 point adder, at most, and not an advantage. Is it really about as good to be immune to your own attack power as to cut its END cost in half, make it 3 shot Autofire or make it Armor Piercing?

[Greywind]

Depends on how often one fights a Reflector.

[esampson]

Given the example, both Cyclops and Havok are heroes and they don't get along.

True, they don't get along, but for the most part when they fight whether or not they are able to use their powers on one another has very little impact. Neither of them is going to wind up dead or in jail. This means that the most significant impact from such a scene is that they had a fight in the first place, not who won, which in turn means that their inability to bring their powers to bear on one another is not highly significant.

 

On the other hand while they are both on the same team it is possible for Cyclops to fire a wide optic beam at the two guys holding Havoc without any concern at all about injuring Havoc. This is a significant advantage, though in truth it would only occur under fairly uncommon situations (about as uncommon as someone having their own power reflected back at them), so it seems to me like a +1/4 would be warranted.

[Greywind]

One problem is, the rules operate in a void. Not in any given campaign. A campaign will have an impact on how often certain limitations and advantages come into play. The rules can't account for them all.

[phoenix240]

Let's see... from Advanced Player's Guide page 87, Damage Reduction ("Special Effect Rule", Resistant, 100%, at 120 Active Points, Limited Power (Only Usable Against Character X's Super Powers: -2), 40 Real Cost.

 

That seems a little steep unless the sibling conflict is going to be a major part of the game.

[esampson]

One problem is, the rules operate in a void. Not in any given campaign. A campaign will have an impact on how often certain limitations and advantages come into play. The rules can't account for them all.

No. They don't operate in a void at all. In fact I really wish they would put more stuff in the books to make it clear that they aren't operating in a void and that the proposed values for Advantages, Limitations, and Complications might change.

 

As an example you will find it clearly stated that the value for certain things such as immunities might change depending upon a campaign. I think most of us will also agree that if you were to run a 'Atlantean Hero' game that the limitation 'Doesn't work under water' would be worth a great deal more than it would be in a 'Return to Dune' campaign.

 

There are certain advantages that aren't really likely to vary, such as armor piercing, but that is because they have counters which are also advantages. Thus they are somewhat 'self balancing'.

 

This is one of the problems with taking lots of things that would have originally been grouped under 'Limited Power' and breaking them out as separate limitations. Under 'Limited Power' it is easier to see how there are considerations with how much a limitation affects a power.

[phoenix240]

One problem is, the rules operate in a void. Not in any given campaign. A campaign will have an impact on how often certain limitations and advantages come into play. The rules can't account for them all.

 

Yeah, you really have to take the rules as guidelines in many cases especially Advantages and Limitations (Disadvantage and Complications too).

[esampson]

I'll add that trying to run the rules in a vacuum is a terrible idea, especially when dealing with teammates. If you don't do that then you run into the trap of '-2 Power only works in Kolinksy radiation fields' on one character while the other character takes 'Change Environment: Generate Kolinsky Radiation Fields. Inherent'.

[steriaca]

Making "Personal Immunity" an adder as opose to an (power) advantage is a house rule. Also same for buying it naked. My think it should go like this: 5 points gives total immunity. 3 points alowes to take Stun damage (but cannot be stuned), and takes no Body damage. At 1 point, the person cannot be stuned, but does take full damage. You can buy it for other powers as a naked adder, but only on the GM's permission. You must buy it per power. (Can this be official in Hero System version 7? Prehaps...)

[Christopher R Taylor]

I suppose you could do it that way, but I'm not sure why instead of an advantage.  The distinction between adders and advantages is a bit unclear though, mostly its just a case of a fixed cost rather than based on the value of the power.  For example, "position shift" could have been a 1/4 advantage.  But that would have been pretty expensive on a high cost flight power.  On the other hand, if all you want is position shift, its kind of expensive on that 1m teleport, relatively speaking.

[esampson]

I think the question of whether something should be an adder or an advantage is 'does the effect scale?'. In the case of Positions Shift it doesn't really scale. It isn't as though you shift even more when you have high levels of flight.

 

On the other hand something like Personal Immunity does scale. You are becoming immune to more and more damage.

[phoenix240]

I can see where its  debatable either way. You do become immune to more and more damage but its from a single source: your own power which could be seen as a binary state: You're either immune to your own power or you're not. If you're power is Aided or otherwise enhanced do you do you become less immune to it?

[esampson]

The immunity itself is binary but it is worth more to be immune to a 14d6 attack than it is to be immune to an 8d6 attack, so the cost should scale as well (advantage).

 

On the other hand, being able to position shift to your feet doesn't really become any more powerful when you can do it at 60m than when you can do it at 10m, so it should be a flat cost (adder).

[dmjalund]

if the level of the attack you are immune to is on your character sheet - or detemined by something on your character sheet - i can see why an adavantage can cover it.

 

However if you have no control of the power level of this attack, a fixed cost is more appropriate

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think the question of whether something should be an adder or an advantage is 'does the effect scale?'. In the case of Positions Shift it doesn't really scale. It isn't as though you shift even more when you have high levels of flight.

 

I like that ruling, that works well.

[esampson]

if the level of the attack you are immune to is on your character sheet - or detemined by something on your character sheet - i can see why an adavantage can cover it.

 

However if you have no control of the power level of this attack, a fixed cost is more appropriate

Well, in this case you aren't really purchasing your immunity to your power, you are actually purchasing someone else's immunity to your power. However, in the example given (two siblings working together) that is still to your benefit (since you can cut loose without fear of hitting your sibling), which is why it is an advantage and not a limitation.

 

It is still an instance of something you control to cost on on your own sheet, so it would still be an advantage rather than an adder.

 

(I should probably add that while your solution gets you to the same place I am proposing I don't think I actually agree with your logic, but I'm not going to argue the merits of it at the moment since this thread is already getting lengthy).