A FH Weapon Build Question...

[Gary Ciaramella]

I am almost certain that some variation of this has been asked, but it is almost 6 in the morning and my brain will not support an extended search of the forum, so bear with me...

 

In the equipment guide (and the Fantasy Hero book as well, it turns out) the dagger is listed with an active/real cost of 21/8... I am trying to remake the list in my copy of Hero Designer and so far can only come up with 17/7... so I am missing something. Here is what I have:

 

Dagger:  HKA 1d6-1, Range Based On STR (+1/4), Reduced END (0 END; +1/2) (17 Active Points); OAF (Dagger; -1), Real Weapon (-1/4), STR Minimum 4-8 (-1/4)

 

What don't I have included in this?

[Ternaugh]

That looks right. Maybe the books are wrong.

[L. Marcus]

I think that's a bug that's been around for a really long time -- perhaps all the way from 4th Ed.

[Chris Goodwin]

I believe - but am not 100% sure - that Hero Designer treats any Killing Attack with a (d6-1) damage value as the same Damage Class as the (1/2d6) damage value, so that 1/2d6 and 1d6-1 are both DC 2.  I think that Steve may have assumed that it was an additional 3 points to turn a 1/2d6 into 1d6-1.  What's more, the APG's imply different values for doing this (APG2 doesn't specify a cost difference, while APG includes a table that gives the d6-1 value a cost of 2, 3, or 4 points over the 1/2d6).  

 

Does HD change the Active Cost when you select and deselect the d6-1 checkbox?  

 

ETA:  I think the official cost for changing 1/2d6 to d6-1 is an additional 2 points; if the checkbox doesn't change the cost, what happens when you drop a 2-point Custom Adder in?  

 

ETA2:  I asked on the Rules Questions forum.  Working it out by calculator I'll note that if you assume it's 2 points, and that the 1d6-1 has a base cost of 12 points, that brings the cost in your build to 21 Active Points (exactly) and 8 (8.4 actually) Real Points.  

[Old Man]

 

 

What don't I have included in this?

 

Why, autofire NND, of course!

[Ternaugh]

I believe - but am not 100% sure - that Hero Designer treats any Killing Attack with a (d6-1) damage value as the same Damage Class as the (1/2d6) damage value, so that 1/2d6 and 1d6-1 are both DC 2.  I think that Steve may have assumed that it was an additional 3 points to turn a 1/2d6 into 1d6-1.  What's more, the APG's imply different values for doing this (APG2 doesn't specify a cost difference, while APG includes a table that gives the d6-1 value a cost of 2, 3, or 4 points over the 1/2d6).  

 

Does HD change the Active Cost when you select and deselect the d6-1 checkbox?  

 

ETA:  I think the official cost for changing 1/2d6 to d6-1 is an additional 2 points; if the checkbox doesn't change the cost, what happens when you drop a 2-point Custom Adder in?  

 

ETA2:  I asked on the Rules Questions forum.  Working it out by calculator I'll note that if you assume it's 2 points, and that the 1d6-1 has a base cost of 12 points, that brings the cost in your build to 21 Active Points (exactly) and 8 (8.4 actually) Real Points.  

 

Your answer's in the Rules Questions forum.

 

It appears that your math is right, as it's an unofficial rule that Mr Long uses. Essentially, we've been tearing out our hair over a house rule

http://www.herogames.com/forums/index.php?/topic/88008-cost-of-d6-1-killing-attack/

[Gary Ciaramella]

It is a strange thing for Steve to write the rules and then make house rules for his own rules... whatever. At least the matter is settled.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Stuff like that is why I would get rid of the D6-1 variation in the system. Just causes confusion for the newbies I think.

[Christougher]

Or make it official.  There is a different damage spread and center, making d6-1 more useful than 1/2d6.  I inserted that as a 'phantom DC' in my own fantasy weapons list to give a little more spread/difference between weapons.  Gary C already has a copy of my list, maybe he can voice his opinion of it.

 

Making it official would break the 1d6K = 3d6 Normal ratio, but given 6Es changing prices of powers (I'm a 5E grognard, don't know if KA was affected.) It might just work out to make 1 DC Killing 4 AP and a full 1d6K 16 points.

 

Chris.

[Chris Goodwin]

Pre 4th edition, the d6-1 was considered the same Damage Class as the 1/2d6.  I... honestly don't care either way, as long as I know how the cost was derived.  

[L. Marcus]

It still is, AFAIKT.

[Gary Ciaramella]

Or make it official.  There is a different damage spread and center, making d6-1 more useful than 1/2d6.  I inserted that as a 'phantom DC' in my own fantasy weapons list to give a little more spread/difference between weapons.  Gary C already has a copy of my list, maybe he can voice his opinion of it.

 

Making it official would break the 1d6K = 3d6 Normal ratio, but given 6Es changing prices of powers (I'm a 5E grognard, don't know if KA was affected.) It might just work out to make 1 DC Killing 4 AP and a full 1d6K 16 points.

 

Chris.

 

 Your weapon list is thorough, tis true. What it needs is some work on it's presentation. You know what everything means, but would be a bit complicated for new players. I can figure it out, but what it needs is more labeling and work on making it's rounding work using the Hero System standards.

 

I do really like that you used the data base... I personally don't have a lot of experience using them, it makes all the math work go away... *poof* Brilliant!

[NuSoardGraphite]

Or make it official.  There is a different damage spread and center, making d6-1 more useful than 1/2d6.  I inserted that as a 'phantom DC' in my own fantasy weapons list to give a little more spread/difference between weapons.  Gary C already has a copy of my list, maybe he can voice his opinion of it.

 

Making it official would break the 1d6K = 3d6 Normal ratio, but given 6Es changing prices of powers (I'm a 5E grognard, don't know if KA was affected.) It might just work out to make 1 DC Killing 4 AP and a full 1d6K 16 points.

 

Chris.

I've never used D6-1, and the groups that I played with before I learned enough about HERO to GM it also did not use it. I think it was included because some groups are intimidated by the 1/2die concept. No clue as to why. Its easy enough to facilitate...just make the 1/2die a separate color from the other dice, or roll it separately.

[Christougher]

 

 Your weapon list is thorough, tis true. What it needs is some work on it's presentation. You know what everything means, but would be a bit complicated for new players. I can figure it out, but what it needs is more labeling and work on making it's rounding work using the Hero System standards.

 

I do really like that you used the data base... I personally don't have a lot of experience using them, it makes all the math work go away... *poof* Brilliant! 

 

I usually hide the unnecessary columns (about half of them) in the spreadsheet unless I'm working on it.  Which of them need more/better explanation?

 

Chris.

 

[Old Man]

Here's an alternate weapon construction system I wrote up in 2002(!).  As suggested upthread, it breaks out the Xd6-1 damage classes as a separate DC (with minor differences) at a cost of 4 points/DC.  I also put together a system for weapon advantages and limitations and then built out the weapon tables accordingly.

 

What I liked about doing this was that it helped smooth out the damage range and reduced granularity for relatively low damage class ranges like we usually see in FH.  Never got a chance to try it out in practice though.  Frankly I can't even remember if I checked the math.

 

---

 

Fine Damage Classes

This weapon chart revolves around a damage progression scheme I call "Fine Damage Classes" (FDC).  This introduces more levels of damage in between the usual damage classes, to get rid of some of the granularity that can occur with killing damage (especially at low levels).   Both the x 1/2 d6 and xd6-1 die rolling schemes are employed with one difference: for xd6-1 rolls, the minimum damage cannot be less than the number of dice rolled.  This matters primarily at low levels; the effect falls away sharply as FDC increases.  It was also necessary to alter the active points per DC in some cases, again to prevent granularity.


Fine Damage Classes: Chart

FDC   DMG   min   avg    max    active pts     size   
------------------------------------------------------
 0   1 pip   1     1      1         1           -2
 1   1-2     1     1.5    2         4           -2
 2   .5d6    1     2      3         8           -1
 3   1d6-1   1     2.67   5        12           -1
 4   1d6     1     3.5    6        15            0
 5   1d6+1   2     4.5    7        19            0
 6   1.5d6   2     5.5    9        23            0
 7   2d6-1   2     6.02  11        27           +1
 8   2d6     2     7     12        30           +1
 9   2d6+1   3     8     13        34           +2
10   2.5d6   3     9     15        38           +2
11   3d6-1   3     9.5   17        42           +3
12   3d6     3    10.5   18        45           +3
13   3d6+1   4    11.5   19        49           +4
14   3.5d6   4    12.5   21        53           +4
15   4d6-1   4    13     23        57           +5
16   4d6     4    14     24        60           +5

"Size" determines the number of hands needed to use the weapon.  This is addressed further down.


Weapon Construction

The STR Min of a given weapon is determined by adding up the features as shown in the chart below.  As an example, a broadsword has a base FDC of 5 (STR Min 10), +1 OCV (+4 STR), and can be used only with one hand (-1 STR), giving a final STR Min of 12.

Feature                   STR Cost
----------------------------------
per FDC                      2
+1 OCV                      +4
-1 OCV                      -3
added reach (L or L3)       +1
reduced reach (S)           -1
penetrating                 +1
AP                          +4
+1 stun multiplier          +1
flail maneuver              +1
throw                       +1
one hand only               -1
set, unhorse                +1 for either or both
reduced penetration            -2

This listing also makes it easy to break out the values of a given weapon, so if there is any particular feature a GM thinks is under- or over-costed, he can easily alter the stats of the associated weapons.  Here I make hammers and flails more effective by discounting their abilities.


Weapon Size and Handedness

Under this system base weapon size is determined by FDC.  This determines the number of extra hands and/or levels of growth needed to use the weapon.  Thus, a size 0 weapon may be used in one hand by an average sized person, but that same person needs two hands to use a size +1 weapon, and could not use a size +2 weapon at all.  However, an ogre with 1 level of growth would be able to use a size +1 weapon in one hand, and could use a size +2 weapon if he used both hands.  (I've dispensed with the idea of "hand-and-a-half" weapons as confusing and unnecessary.  Either you need two hands to use the weapon, or you don't.)

Damage inflicted by a weapon goes up by one FDC for every 5 points of STR over the STR min, up to a maximum of double the FDC.  A 17 STR warrior could inflict 1.5d6K with a broadsword, but only 1d6 with a dagger.  (A weapon with an FDC of 0 cannot have its damage increased.)

Using two hands to swing a weapon reduces the STR min of that weapon by 2, whether using two hands is required or not.  So if a normal human were to use a size 0 weapon with both hands, the weapon's STR Min would be reduced by 2.  STR Mins for both one- and two-handed use are listed for convenience, though in many cases one figure or the other will rarely be used.

Some weapons, such as broadswords, have the "one hand only" limitation, which means that two hands cannot be used to wield the weapon unless the wielder has one or more levels of shrinking--a gelfling with one level of shrinking could then use a short sword (size 0) with both hands, reducing the STR Min to 7, but could not use a knife (size -2) with more than one hand.  Furthermore, no one can effectively use a weapon that is more than two size levels smaller than they are--a giant with four levels of growth could not use ogre-sized or human-sized weapons.


----


The Weapon Chart

For the most part this chart uses the same DC and bonuses of the weapons in 4th ed FH, with recomputed STR mins.

Axes and Maces and Hammers and Picks
                                                              STR Min
Weapon           OCV     Range    Dmg      Stun    L    Sz    1h   2h    Notes
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Great Axe        +0        -      2d6K      +0     M    +1    16   14           
Battle Axe       -1        -      2d6K      +0     M    +1    13   11           
Large Axe        +0        -      2d6-1K    +0     M    +1    14   12       
Francisca        +0        0      1.5d6K    +0     M     0    13   11    throw       
Hand Axe         +0        0      1d6+1K    +0     M     0    10    8    throw, 1h only
Hatchet          +0        -      1d6K      +0     M     0     8    6    throw, 1h only
Mattock          +0        -      2d6K      +1     M    +1    18   16    pen
Maul             +0        -      1.5d6K    +1     M     0    14   12    pen
War Hammer       -1        -      1d6+1K    +1     M     0     9    7    pen
Large Hammer     +0        -      1d6+1K    +1     M     0    12   10    pen
Hammer           +0        0      1d6K      +1     M     0    11    9    throw, pen
Small Hammer     +0        -      1d6-1K    +1     M    -1     8    6    pen
Great Mace       +0        -      2d6K      +0     M    +1    16   14    
Morningstar      -1        -      1.5d6K    +0     M     0     9    7     
Large Mace       +0        -      1.5d6K    +0     M     0    12   10    
Small Mace       +0        -      1d6K      +0     M     0     7    5    1h only
Great Pick       +0        -      1.5d6K    +0     M     0    16   14    AP
Military Pick    -1        -      1d6+1K    +0     M     0    11    9    AP
Large Pick       +0        -      1d6+1K    +0     M     0    14   12    AP
Pick             +0        -      1d6K      +0     M     0    12   10    AP
Small Pick       +0        -      1d6-1K    +0     M    -1    10    8    1h only, AP
Troll Hand Axe   +0        -      2.5d6K    +0     M    +2    20   18        
Ogre Axe         +0        -      2d6+1K    +0     M    +2    18   16

Swords and Knives
                                                              STR Min
Weapon           OCV     Range    Dmg      Stun    L    Sz    1h   2h    Notes
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Great Sword      +1        -      2d6-1K    +0     M    +1    18   16       
Bastard Sword    +0        -      1.5d6K    +0     M     0    12   10     
Falchion         +1        -      1.5d6K    +0     M     0    15   13    1h only
Broadsword       +1        -      1d6+1K    +0     M     0    13   11    1h only
Scimitar         +0        -      1d6+1K    +0     M     0     9    7    1h only     
Sabre            +1        -      1d6K      +0     M     0    11    9    1h only
Shortsword       +1        -      1d6-1K    +0     M    -1     9    7    1h only
Dirk             +0        -      1d6-1K    +0     S    -1     5    3    1h only
Dagger           +1        0      0.5d6K    +0     S    -1     7    5    throw, 1h only
Stiletto         +1        -      0.5d6K    +0     S    -1    10    8    AP, 1h only
Knife            +1        0      1d2K      +0     S    -2     5    3    throw, 1h only
Pocketknife      +1        -      1d2K      +0     S    -2     4    2    1h only
Knitting Needle  +0        -      1K        +0     S    -2    -1   -3    1h only
           
    
Spears and Polearms   
                                                              STR Min
Weapon           OCV     Range    Dmg      Stun    L    Sz    1h   2h    Notes
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Javelin          +0        0      1d6K      +0     L     0    10    8    throw
Harpoon          +0        0      1.5d6K    +0     L     0    14   12    throw
Small Spear      -1        0      1d6+1K    +0     L     0     9    7    throw
Medium Spear     -1        0      1.5d6K    +0     L     0    11    9    set
Long Spear       -1        -      2d6-1K    +0     L3   +1    15   13    set
Trident          -1        0      2d6K      +0     L    +1    13   11    throw, rdcd pen
Halberd          +0        -      2d6K      +0     L    +1    18   16    set, unhorse
Glaive           +0        -      2d6K      +0     L    +1    18   16    set
Voulge           +0        -      2d6-1K    +0     L    +1    16   14    set, unhorse
Bardiche         -1        -      2d6K      +0     L    +1    14   12    
Fauchard         +0        -      2d6K      +0     L    +1    18   16    set
Bill             -1        -      2d6-1K    +0     L    +1    13   11    unhorse
Ranseur          -1        -      2d6K      +0     L    +1    15   13    set
Partisan         -1        -      1d6K      +0     L     0    11    9    set, AP
Military Fork    +0        -      1.5d6K    +0     L     0    12   10    set, rdcd pen
Bec de Corbin    -1        -      2d6-1K    +0     L    +1    12   10    
Lucern Hammer    -1        -      1.5d6K    +0     L3    0    15   13    set, AP
Pike             -1        -      2d6K      +0     L3   +1    15   13    set
Awl Pike         -1        -      1d6+1K    +0     L3    0    13   11    set, AP
Scythe           +0        -      2d6-1K    +0     L     0    15   13
Pitchfork        -1        -      1.5d6K    +0     M     0     7    5    rdcd pen       
Sharp Stick      +0        -      0.5d6K    +0     M    -1     4    2
Brownie Spear    +0        0      1d2K      +0     S    -2     2    0    throw


Flails
                                                              STR Min
Weapon           OCV     Range    Dmg      Stun    L    Sz    1h   2h    Notes
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Battle Flail     +0        -      2d6K      +0     M    +1    17   15    flail
Military Flail   -1        -      2d6-1K    +0     M    +1    12   10    flail
Large Flail      +0        -      1.5d6K    +0     M     0    13   11    flail
Bladed Flail     +0        -      1d6+1K    +0     M     0    11    9    flail
Flail            +0        -      1d6K      +0     M     0     9    7    flail
War Flail        +0        -      1d6+1K    +1     M     0    12   10    flail
Large War Flail  +0        -      1.5d6K    +1     M     0    14   12    flail


Discussion: Most of the weapons come down around the Str Mins listed in 4th ed, with a little more variation.  As stated above I've deliberately made hammers and flails more effective as I found that they were rarely used.  This damage scheme slightly nerfs one-handed weapons and boosts two-handed weapons in the 15-20 STR range--falchions now do 2d6-1K at STR 20 while a battle axe does 2d6+1K.  Again, I find this to be a good thing as in my experience players were loath to give up the ability to use a shield or second weapon for the single additional DC a two-handed weapon would give in 4th ed.  The question of how many hands a large creature needs to swing a large weapon is also addressed.  There's still a bit of granularity at the very botton of the STR chart, but the situation there is still better than it was before, allowing more weapon options for brownies and windlings.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Great work Old Man! You've still got it!

 

I would write the "flail" maneuver up as the +1/4 level of Indirect considering that it allows one to bypass the DCV bonus of forward facing cover (normally that provided by a shield, but it might work against other types of cover depending on the circumstances)

 

How come the Bastard Sword and Scimitar don't get OCV bonuses? If the Great Sword gets an OCV bonus, I would think that the Bastard Sword would get one as well. Same for the Scimitar vs the Sabre.

 

Personally, I do 3pts of STR difference between 1-handed and 2-handed weapon use. Why? Because with an increase of +3 STR, you are almost garunteed to reach the "break-point" where the extra STR provides bonus damage. A 2pt STR difference doesn't garuntee this. For example. A Broadsword with a STR-min of 13, when used with 2-hands has a STR-min of 10. A character with a STR of 13 would then gain a +1 DC damage bonus when he brings two hands to bare on his weapon. It doesn't always work (STRmin 12 going down to STRmin 9) but it works more often than a 2pt difference.

 

I notice that you have Hammers at both +1 StunX and Penetrating. I think personally I would make hammers Penetrating and maces +1 StunX in the interest of weapon class balance.

 

Why do you have both the Great Axe and Battleaxe at 2D6k? Isn't the Great Axe the next size class of weapon up and thus should be 7DC (2D6+1k)? Did you do that because you wanted the Ogre Axe at 2D6+1k? I would have the Ogre Axe at 2.5D6k...truly a weapon to be feared.

[Old Man]

I can't answer most of your questions because I wrote that stuff eleven years ago. I think in general I was duplicating the stats out of the 4th ed FH weapons chart and deriving new STR mins for them.

 

One thing I do know is that I consciously avoided trying to have the STR mins come down on the 10-13-15-18 breakpoints. If it turned out that way then fine, but there was already too much pressure in FH to optimize stats on those breakpoints. As a result it was as though there were only four possible values for STR, which got annoying after a few years. The 4th ed weapon chart had breakpoint-itis as well.

 

One thing I wanted to do with this was rebuild the Ninja Hero weapon chart as well and see how things turned out. Never got around to it though.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I can't answer most of your questions because I wrote that stuff eleven years ago. I think in general I was duplicating the stats out of the 4th ed FH weapons chart and deriving new STR mins for them.

 

One thing I do know is that I consciously avoided trying to have the STR mins come down on the 10-13-15-18 breakpoints. If it turned out that way then fine, but there was already too much pressure in FH to optimize stats on those breakpoints. As a result it was as though there were only four possible values for STR, which got annoying after a few years. The 4th ed weapon chart had breakpoint-itis as well.

 

One thing I wanted to do with this was rebuild the Ninja Hero weapon chart as well and see how things turned out. Never got around to it though.

Agreed.  I also didn't like the fact that STR-mininums seemed to be spread along the lines of the Break-points.  I tend to spread them around a bit more when I do my own weapons charts.  I used a spread of +3 STR between weapon classes/sizes.  Starting with the Broadsword at STR-min 10, then worked from there.  Bastard Sword came out to STR-min 13, Greatsword STR-min 16.  Short Sword STR-min 7 and Dagger STR-min 4.  Other weapon types I rated in comparison to their sword equivalents based on how much heavier or unwieldy they tended to be compared to a balanced weapon like a sword.  Maces and Hammers tended to be +1 STR-min higher than their equivalent sword-type, and Axes tended to be +2 STR-min higher due to the majority of the weight being concentrated at the head of the weapon, so I my own weapons chart, STR-min's tended to spread around quite a bit.

[Christougher]

I just uploaded the weapons spreadsheet mentioned: http://www.herogames.com/forums/index.php?/files/file/57-weaponsxls/

 

However, Nusoard's suggestion of hammers with Penetrating/maces with +1 Stun is a really good idea I might incorporate.

 

Chris.

[Old Man]

It is a good suggestion, just keep in mind that (in my experience) +1 STUNx isn't appealing in fantasy games where you're usually trying to kill your adversary.

[Christougher]

Fair point re: +1 StunX.  I wonder if that would justify lowering +1 StunX to a +1/4 advantage.

 

But on my list, swords don't have the +1 OCV they used to; I gave that to maces instead  With swords, you need to hit with the edge or point; with a mace any hit is a good hit.  It was also a deliberate attempt to make the sword NOT the go-to weapon in the campaign.

 

Chris.

[NuSoardGraphite]

It is a good suggestion, just keep in mind that (in my experience) +1 STUNx isn't appealing in fantasy games where you're usually trying to kill your adversary.

If its not appealing to some players, that's because these players aren't thinking straight.  If your opponent is well armored enough to survive a few hits from a killing damage weapon, the ability to stun your opponent becomes incredibly important, essentially giving you a free phase to attack them without fear of reprisal, allowing an experienced warrior to bring CSL's and Martial Arts maneuvers to bear to do full damage without worrying about their DCV for a counterattack.  In other words; Stun the opponent, then max damage on your next attack equals a very dead opponent most of the time.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Fair point re: +1 StunX.  I wonder if that would justify lowering +1 StunX to a +1/4 advantage.

 

But on my list, swords don't have the +1 OCV they used to; I gave that to maces instead  With swords, you need to hit with the edge or point; with a mace any hit is a good hit.  It was also a deliberate attempt to make the sword NOT the go-to weapon in the campaign.

 

Chris.

I believe in 5th edition (and carried on into 6th ed) +1 StunX has been reduced to +1/4 advantage.