Nightvision and "absolute darkness."

[Kraven Kor]

Question:  Does nightvision work in "absolute darkness?"  

 

My assumption is that the base nightvision power is, essentially, "light amplification" or something similar; it cancels out penalties from normal darkness.  True "darkvision" like for dwarves would be something else; spatial awareness based on a not-sight sense group or something.  N-Ray vision, maybe.

 

But if in a no-light-to-amplify situation - deep underground or in a sealed chamber - does "nightvision" as the base power work?  Or is "absolute darkness" essentially a form of the darkness power?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Absolute darkness would mean absolutely no light meaning there's no chance to see anything as you need some light to see. in game terms it's a field of Darkness (completely blocks sense of sight). anything less than pure darkness should be written up as change environment (or images) with penalties to sight perception.

 

And yes, nightvision cancels penalties for darkness but cannot penetrate the darkness power.

[Tasha]

Question:  Does nightvision work in "absolute darkness?"  

 

My assumption is that the base nightvision power is, essentially, "light amplification" or something similar; it cancels out penalties from normal darkness.  True "darkvision" like for dwarves would be something else; spatial awareness based on a not-sight sense group or something.  N-Ray vision, maybe.

 

But if in a no-light-to-amplify situation - deep underground or in a sealed chamber - does "nightvision" as the base power work?  Or is "absolute darkness" essentially a form of the darkness power?

 

Since Nightvision is really just 4 sight per levels vs night mods. You are right about it being useless in total darkness.

 

In a Fantasy Genre Game esp since Dwarves have nightvision and Elves have UV vision. I would rule for that Genre that Nightvision works in complete darkness (or it would be pretty useless for subterranean races).

 

I think it would take it genre by genre as to how I would deal with it.

[Kraven Kor]

Well, trying to do "gritty steampunk fantasy."  So I'm thinking natural nightvision, as granted by the racial package, is as stated - PSL vs. darkness penalty.  "Magical" nightvision, or "magi-tech" will be "darkvision" - built as non-sight spatial awareness that is targeting, discriminatory, etc.

[Alcamtar]

I would rule for that Genre that Nightvision works in complete darkness (or it would be pretty useless for subterranean races).

 

I like the idea that subterranean races only have enhanced eyesight (enlarged eyes like deep sea creatures) rather than a magical sense. For a race that could truly see in darkness I'd create a new power, Darkvision, that would be something like Spatial Awareness or N-Ray vision or something. It seems to violate the spirit of the rules to say that +4 PER grants the ability to see in the absence of light. After all anyone can buy 4 levels of enhanced PER (or sufficiently high INT for that matter), and +4 Hearing doesn't grant the ability to hear nonexistent sounds.

[ghost-angel]

Wasn't the classic "nightvision" that dwarves had just IR-Heat Spectrum vision? In which case it would work in Total Darkness as you see radiated Near Spectrum IR that has nothing to do with needing light sources.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Wasn't the classic "nightvision" that dwarves had just IR-Heat Spectrum vision? In which case it would work in Total Darkness as you see radiated Near Spectrum IR that has nothing to do with needing light sources.

This.

 

You give Dwarves IR-vision, they don't need light.  They can sense the heat variations around them, which would be good enough.

[Tasha]

You could give Dwarves IR vision. There are issues with that that bit D&D on the rear. Which is why they went for a simple "works in total darkness up to dim light. No color vision" ability called "Darkvision". I am 99% certain that is what Steve meant for Nightvision to be for Fantasy Hero. He gave Elves UV vision so they are totally different.

 

Here's what the actual RAW says about Nightvision"

"Nightvision
Cost: 5 character points (+4 enhanced perception, with a -½ limitation, Only to Counteract darkness modifiers; passive).
The character can see in total darkness (not including the Power Darkness, but including some forms of Change Environment that obscure vision) as though it were normal daylight."

 

I bolded the text that ends the argument. Pg211 6e1

[Christopher]

"Nightvision

Cost: 5 character points (+4 enhanced perception, with a -½ limitation, Only to Counteract darkness modifiers; passive).

The character can see in total darkness (not including the Power Darkness, but including some forms of Change Environment that obscure vision) as though it were normal daylight."

 

I bolded the text that ends the argument. Pg211 6e1

I boldened another part that restarts the argument

 

The "darkest" noted in 6E2 12 is "Dark Night". Wich still has some light from stars.

There is still absolute "normal" Darkness beyond that (there will be no light to amplify in a sealed room). Note that this vulnerability to "natural Darkness" is because both Normal Sight and Nightvision are passive senses. If there is nothing else emitting light, those passive senses cannot ever work.

 

Wasn't the classic "nightvision" that dwarves had just IR-Heat Spectrum vision? In which case it would work in Total Darkness as you see radiated Near Spectrum IR that has nothing to do with needing light sources.

That would fit.

 

The sun is just a really hot thing. So hot that among the EM-Radiation it gives off is what we call "visible light". But anything significantly warmer then Absolute Zero can give off Infrared Radiation. And 0°C is a whoppin 273°C over absolute Zero (and at -100°C things start emitting infrared).

The shorter the wavelenght, the higher the energy. And the more heat the emitting body must have. IR wavelenght is rather long/low energy. But in turn a lot of stuff can easily emit it and the sun can emit a lot of it.

 

Actually, according to that spectrum I linked, long before something emits Infrared it would emit Radio and then Microwaves.

[ghost-angel]

Indeed, I wasn't questioning Hero "Nightvision" - just what the original D&D Nightvision actually was. When I play D&D such details sort of fall by the wayside - actually they're forcibly tied up and dumped in a closet because D&D isn't a role playing game so much as a board game.... Yeah, that goes for all versions including the "should be burned and erased from history" AD&D2E.

 

As for Hero; Nightvision as built only works if you're using the RAW for Darkness modifiers. It makes sense it's just counteracting Darkness Modifiers, but it's not a "works in actual darkness with no light source at all" kind of build. Unless you're just going with the spirit of the thing.

[ghost-angel]

Actually, according to that spectrum I linked, long before something emits Infrared it would emit Radio and then Microwaves.

 

Er ... no. objects will emit, reflect, and absorb different portions of the overall EM Spectrum based on their composition. It's not a left-to-right reading.

 

Red Objects, for example, Reflect Red Visible while absorbing the rest of the visible spectrum. A blue object will Reflect the Blue end, while absorbing the other part. Some objects will absorb the UV spectrum, some will reflect it.

 

"Heat" vision actually only covers a small portion, Near Spectrum (meaning close to the visible spectrum), of the overall Infra-Red portion of the EM Spectrum.

[Christopher]

Er ... no. objects will emit, reflect, and absorb different portions of the overall EM Spectrum based on their composition. It's not a left-to-right reading.

Reflection and Emission are two totally different things.

I never talked about Reflection, but Emission.

 

I lightbulb is not reflecting light, but emitting it.

A mirror or the moon is not emitting light, but reflecting it.

Anything warmer then 100 °K emits infrared radiation. Suns. Lightbulbs. Ice. Humans. Houses. The planet. Cat's. Dwarves. Elves.

 

When there is no other way to loose heat (say in the Vacuum of space) heat will still be emitted of as IR, Microwave and Radio Radiation.

[Tasha]

Indeed, I wasn't questioning Hero "Nightvision" - just what the original D&D Nightvision actually was. When I play D&D such details sort of fall by the wayside - actually they're forcibly tied up and dumped in a closet because D&D isn't a role playing game so much as a board game.... Yeah, that goes for all versions including the "should be burned and erased from history" AD&D2E.

 

As for Hero; Nightvision as built only works if you're using the RAW for Darkness modifiers. It makes sense it's just counteracting Darkness Modifiers, but it's not a "works in actual darkness with no light source at all" kind of build. Unless you're just going with the spirit of the thing.

AD&D Dwarves had IR vision originally. This caused problems as rules lawyers started to point out the things one could do with IR vision (ie following heat trails, Following heat foot prints etc) that made IRvision very powerful and more of a hassle than anyone wanted to deal with.

In later editions they switched to a new ability for Dwarves and Subterrainian folk Called Darkvision. It allows someone to see in total darkness up to 60' for Dwarves and up to 120' for Drow and other Deep dwellers. It is a Black and White vision type, though it must do greyscale to help distinguish faces.

[Tasha]

I boldened another part that restarts the argument

 

The "darkest" noted in 6E2 12 is "Dark Night". Which still has some light from stars.

There is still absolute "normal" Darkness beyond that (there will be no light to amplify in a sealed room). Note that this vulnerability to "natural Darkness" is because both Normal Sight and Nightvision are passive senses. If there is nothing else emitting light, those passive senses cannot ever work.

The important part of the rule is what it says it does, not how it's "built". In fact, why don't you ask Steve if Darkvision works in Complete Darkness. I'll bet he will point out in the rules it says it DOES. It's still "Normal Vision" for the purposes of Flashes, and Darkness.

 

It says "The character can see in total darkness (not including the Power Darkness, but including some forms of Change Environment that obscure vision) as though it were normal daylight."

Not partial darkness, nor does it say "Dark Night" it says Total Darkness.

 

And Making Dwarves and other fantasy races spend 32points for this vision is just ludicrous. Darkvision doesn't do quite the same things as Spacial Awareness, is easier to defeat, and would create issues all it's own if PC races had it. IMHO Spacial Awareness is a bad choice.

[Kraven Kor]

I guess I'm missing how Spatial Awareness is "better" than sight?

 

By default:  Spatial Awareness is ranged, and a sense, but not discriminatory nor does it have analyze; it is targeting, but not tracking.  Yes?  Now most people build spatial awareness as 360-degree, discriminatory, etc. but I don't think - or don't see how - it is inherently better than normal sight?

 

IR vision I get.  There is some confusion re: Nightvision right in the text, and again I would rule "absolute darkness" as equivalent to a darkness effect vs. normal sight and UV vision.

[ghost-angel]

I'd point out "Normal Sight" doesn't technically have Discrimination or Analyze either. But it can discern colors, which Spatial Awareness cannot.

 

Spatial Awareness is sometimes deemed "better" simply because of the number of common ways to affect the Sight Group that occur in a standard game.

[Kraven Kor]

And, Steve Long has already addressed this

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/73777-night-vision-clarification/?hl=nightvision&do=findComment&comment=1885593

 

Basically, a non-answer (and that isn't a bad thing) leaving it up to the GM with the note that, in typical write-ups, fantasy races that dwell underground would just have standard "Nightvision," but that GM's are to use their discretion.  In my case, "reasoning from effect."

 

I'm going to apply a -1/4 limitation "Low-light Vision" to the nightvision of the racial packages to ensure equity.

[JasonPacker]

I'm prepared to be shot down here, but aren't we into the territory of special effect at this point? If your version of "night vision" is that you project your own wavelength that you can see bouncing off of things, you have different result than if your version is eyes as big as saucers.

[Kraven Kor]

I'm prepared to be shot down here, but aren't we into the territory of special effect at this point? If your version of "night vision" is that you project your own wavelength that you can see bouncing off of things, you have different result than if your version is eyes as big as saucers.

 

That is my take, and apparently Steve's as well, to an extent.

[Tasha]

I guess I'm missing how Spatial Awareness is "better" than sight?

 

By default:  Spatial Awareness is ranged, and a sense, but not discriminatory nor does it have analyze; it is targeting, but not tracking.  Yes?  Now most people build spatial awareness as 360-degree, discriminatory, etc. but I don't think - or don't see how - it is inherently better than normal sight?

 

IR vision I get.  There is some confusion re: Nightvision right in the text, and again I would rule "absolute darkness" as equivalent to a darkness effect vs. normal sight and UV vision.

When you come right down to it. It's your game, you can interpret the rules like you want.

 

BTW besides being a "Special Sense" which usually doesn't get flashed, or affected by most Invisibilities, Darkness etc. Spacial Awareness  (Detect physical objects, Fully penetrative, targeting sense, sense; passive. So it's sees through most everything. It's very "N-Ray vision in that way"

 

There's no reason that you can't just take IR Vision call it "Darkvision" just rule that it only allows monochromatic vision and doesn't work in full light. The point is to have a type of vision that mimics how dwarves see in D&D.

[Kraven Kor]

For the record, I was not refuting your point, just asking for clarification, Tasha

 

The bolded part is what I was missing; I did not think it was "fully penetrative" by default.  

[NuSoardGraphite]

I'd point out "Normal Sight" doesn't technically have Discrimination or Analyze either. But it can discern colors, which Spatial Awareness cannot.

 

Spatial Awareness is sometimes deemed "better" simply because of the number of common ways to affect the Sight Group that occur in a standard game.

I'm pretty sure all the normal senses (including and especially sight) have discriminatory by default.  Otherwise you wouldn't be able to use them to tell things apart.  Discriminatory is all about being able to read details with your senses which allows you to tell the difference between individual objects.  Analyze goes deeper and allows you to determine somethings chemical makeup.

 

So Discriminatory vision allows you to tell Joe apart from Kevin.  otherwise vision would just tell you, there's an object there, vaguely human shaped, like a primitive radar.

[bigbywolfe]

I'm pretty sure all the normal senses (including and especially sight) have discriminatory by default.  

Have you read the descriptions of any of the senses in 5E or 6E?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Have you read the descriptions of any of the senses in 5E or 6E?

5E yes, 6E no.

 

I know the 5th edition version says that sight is "crudely discriminatory".  I find that odd.  It should either be discriminatory or not.

 

If you have a Radar, all you can do is determine the spacial location and size of objects your radar ping bounces off of.  When you add discriminatory to that radar, you now gain the ability to tell what the object is you are reading.  You can tell a plane from a zepplin.   You can even tell an F-22 from an F-18.  You do not gain the ability to tell what material the plane is made out of or how much it weighs.

 

Sight should be the same.  Sight is inherently discriminatory.  Not only can you see objects and tell their spacial location and size, but you can see distinct details that allows you to identify individual objects from one another, even within the same class of object.  You can tell different humans apart from one another.  You can tell different dogs apart from one another.  You can even tell apart two cars of the same model and color from one another due to the details present on the two objects that make them distinctly unique.  That's discriminatory in a nutshell.  Sight has that.  I can see smell and touch being considered "partially discriminatory".  You can tell different textures apart very well, but its difficult to tell Frank from John by touch alone.  Same for smell.  There is a very wide range of smells we can detect, but it's hard to tell Frank's farts from John's farts, unless one of them has distinctly strong and unique emanations.  Dogs and wolves have discriminatory smell.  They can tell Frank's farts from John's.  Easily.

 

Hearing is discriminatory as well.  We can tell Jane's voice from Sally's voice, even if they have a similar tone and frequency.  We can tell the difference of the sound from a piano vs a flute, even if those sounds are on the same frequency of 1000hz.  An experienced mechanic can tell you the model of a car from the sound of it's engine and can quite possibly tell you whats wrong with the car from the sound of it.  That's pretty much discriminatory.

[ghost-angel]

5E yes, 6E no.

 

I know the 5th edition version says that sight is "crudely discriminatory".  I find that odd.  It should either be discriminatory or not.

 

 

6E has the same "crudely discriminatory" for the default Sight Group. Which I find also odd, and am not a fan of it. I believe the rules should say the default Sight Group does not have Discriminatory, but Normal Sight does. This will allow for the current rules that inherent the Group abilities when a Sense is bought as part of a Sense Group, without the cognitive dissonance that your Normal Sight doesn't have Discriminatory on it when it clearly does.

 

Alas, it does not. Ergo - my statement stands; by the rules Sight does not get Discriminatory on it. No Base Sense does. Not for free, by RAW.