Human Limits

[JmOz]

I forgot to add, HCM on Running is 15" and Swimming is 8

[megaplayboy]

Originally posted by D-Man

I wasn't aware their was anything to debate.

 

Different people have different styles of play, and different interpretations of various characters and genres.

 

Hero can be applied to multiple reality distortion levels with relative ease.

 

Those who build batman with a DX of 30 are no more correct than those who build him with a DX of 20. And neither of them is wrong, either, insofar as the campaign is internally consistent.

 

Do you set "human limits" on combat skill levels?

 

I can see one merit to the low end approach--a 20 dex batman who triumphs over a dozen thugs is much more impressive;)

[drrushing]

"Human" limits

 

I like JmOzs' take on this subject. The stat ceiling of 20 is a good "soft" buffer. Meaning that MOST "Human" characters would stop around this number. Realistically, as much as a RPG can be, a harder ceiling in general is 30 like in FRED. Figured characteristics are purely up to the agreement of the players and GM.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by megaplayboy

Do you set "human limits" on combat skill levels?

 

I can see one merit to the low end approach--a 20 dex batman who triumphs over a dozen thugs is much more impressive;)

 

I do keep an eye on things, but I take the approach that many characters are considered "larger than life" because of their supernormal skills as opposed to powers and stats.

 

My batman has defense maneuver IV, danger sense (intuition), combat sense, find weakness, rapid attack (both), two weapon fighting (both) with PSLs to offset the DCV penalties, not to mention PSLs for weird stuff like richocheting batarangs, a load of combat skill levels, and a laundry list of martial maneuvers.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by D-Man

I do keep an eye on things, but I take the approach that many characters are considered "larger than life" because of their supernormal skills as opposed to powers and stats.

 

My batman has defense maneuver IV, danger sense (intuition), combat sense, find weakness, rapid attack (both), two weapon fighting (both) with PSLs to offset the DCV penalties, not to mention PSLs for weird stuff like richocheting batarangs, a load of combat skill levels, and a laundry list of martial maneuvers.

 

I'd call a Batman write-up with that list and a 23 DEX a far deadlier character than a Batman with a 30 DEX and a short list. I'd also call it more accurate.

[Solomon]

Originally posted by Starlord

Whew! 12 posts into the debate and nobody has brought up Rainbow Archer yet. Keep up the good work people!

 

IHMO that was not nearly as impressive as the Whip, who also had STR and CON to boot. Then again, just about everibody in 4E Eurostar had DEX 30+.

[zornwil]

I don't really worry too much about human maxima in Champions games, and, weirdly, there's been almost no players in my games who've played "regular" enhanced humans so it hasn't come up.

[JmOz]

I have to admit I have only had to tell one player that his character needed to reduce a stat or become superhuman (Usualy I don't metion the limit, as it is a small point). The character was a Martial Artist with a Dex of 35. Guy droped the Dex and bought 3 skill levels (and a FAM with something or other)

[JmOz]

Re: "Human" limits

 

Originally posted by drrushing

I like JmOzs' take on this subject. The stat ceiling of 20 is a good "soft" buffer. Meaning that MOST "Human" characters would stop around this number. Realistically, as much as a RPG can be, a harder ceiling in general is 30 like in FRED. Figured characteristics are purely up to the agreement of the players and GM.

 

Thank you, Incase you did not notice, all the limits are 1.5 x NCM

[Pattern Ghost]

I kinda look at it like this: Strength has a real world benchmark. So, deadlifting over about a ton is probably a superhuman level of STR. Say anything over 30 or so is clearly superhuman.

 

The other stats don't really have a real world benchmark that's so clearly defined. So, having a 35 DEX just means you have more DEX than the guy with a 30 DEX (or a 34 DEX). The only benchmark for stats other than STR is going to be the in-game benchmark. In my tiny little brain, I tend to put Spider-Man up around 35 or so DEX, just b/c. So, if I were playing in a game where Spidey was the standard for a high level of superhuman DEX, I'd probably say non-enhanced human DEX ended around 30 or so, which would leave a little space for super but not Spidey, and let there be a bit of space above Spidey for REALLY high DEX, but still within a few DCs of the rest of the world. OTOH, Spidey might have a lower than superhuman DEX and a bunch of powers to simulate his Spidey feats. Guess it depends on how you build him.

 

Too big of a CV range is problematic, so that's really what needs to be limited more than DEX. Going first, and having a gonzo skill roll aren't big deals. Not being touchable in combat IS a big deal, and you can do that with a 10 DEX and a buttload of CSLs too. Having a huge CV and attacks near the campaign max is also a no-no, IMO.

 

CON, I don't worry about too much. I hardly ever see anyone go over 30, and most folks are in the 20's. Just not enough of a biggie to worry about it. Same for BODY, nobody buys it up anyway. The mental stats aren't tangibles anyway, and they don't affect figureds, so I say go wild with 'em if you want to burn the points.

 

On the secondaries, I can see a "normal" with a PD/ED up to around 15. Considering a normal (regular normal, not comic book super-normal) can get six to eight dice on an Offensive Strike, that's 21 to 28 STUN on average. The super-normal should be able to soak up a couple hits of this level, so 15 seems OK. You'd be darn spiffy compared to most normals, though.

 

SPD has the same concerns as DEX. You don't want too huge of a spread or it gets a bit hard to balance things out. I think the CU defaults are OK. Here's how my tiny little brain breaks it down:

 

SPD 2. Joe Blow man on the street, with no physical skills.

SPD 3. Some kind of training in athletics or combat.

SPD 4. Pretty darn spiffy combat training or really spiffy natural response times.

SPD 5. Really spiffy combat training, or slightly enhanced response times if untrained. Also a highly-trained combatant who has some experience.

SPD 6. Dedicated fighter with a lot of experience, or some level of superhuman ability. Low-level speedsters might fall here.

SPD 7. Best of the Best dedicated fighters. You can still be "normal" at this level, but you're one of a very select few.

Most characters at this speed are supers with speed/reflexes part of their schtick though.

SPD 8. Speedster land. Anything past 8 is going to be tough to play with.

 

I'd say a spread of 5-7 with the occasional 4 or 8 is a playable range of SPDs, including normal speed ranges from 2-4 for mooks to elite agents.

 

REC: 10 seems like a good "human" limit, though the super-normal might go as high as 15 w/out straining my brain too much. END and STUN cap out at 50 even with NCM, and I rarely see either of those exceeded except by bricks anyway, so no issues there.

 

Basically, I'm pretty easy. The only stats I watch are DEX and SPD, but more due to keeping things balanced out in combat than enforcing my ideas of someone's origin. If someone turns in a DEX 35 archer, and claims that they're just highly trained, I'm not going to make them resubmit the character with a lower DEX and a bunch of CSLs and Combat Reflexes just so it fits my conception of the "normal" range --- comics just ain't normal. "Normal" in the comics and movies far exceeds anything actually achievable outside the comic panel or movie frame that it's silly to argue too much.

 

Now, in a non-comics and non-cinematic reality-level game, I'm not going to let people max out too much on stats. I can see allowing up to one primary and one figured at a high level, so if Thug the Barbarian wants a 25 STR and a 10 PD, he can go for it as long as he pays the points. If Speedy the Elf Ranger wants a 23 DEX and a 5 SPD, then go for it. Chances are at lower point levels, the players aren't going to dump too much into over 20 stats anyway, so why not let them be special? Same goes for non-fantasy. How strong is Jaws from James Bond? Guy has HKA in his teeth, for crying out loud. He's got his schtick, in other words. No need to stomp on that.

 

Just my .02 on the subject.