Stone Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 After the Avengers vs JLA & Bats vs Caps threads, I see my interpretation of human limits differs from alot folks out there. This is not aimed at anyone and is in no way intended to offend. I tend to agree with D-man on anything over a 20 is superhuman, and needs an explanation. Figured characteristics is somewhat more diffiecult to explain. I can see how PD/ED could go to 10 (non resistant), but not beyond that. Recovery 10. Stun & End I would say 40 (again for stickly non-superpowered characters). Speed is the killer here. I cannot see a non-superpowered character having a speed greater then 5. Just curious on how everyone else handles this in their campagins/game worlds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 An NCM debate has DOOM written all over it... No superhero is human. Batman is not human, Nightwing is not human. Their 'shtick' is that they 'play humans'. In reality, they're superheroes. NO HUMAN CAN SWING FROM ROOFTOP TO ROOFTOP BOUNCING OFF FLAGPOLES LIKE HE'S STROLLING THROUGH THE PARK. Therefore, most limits are off when it comes to superheroes. Batman's superhero schtick/origin/motif/niche is that he's a real human, but let's be honest Batman might as well be Superman when compared to a supposed 'normal' human. When Cap yells something like "I'm just a man!", you suspend disbelief. He's a superhero..playing a man. It's just a basis for an origin. Supes is an alien. Thor is a god. Cyclops is a mutant. Nightwing is a normal human. It's just how they're perceived. DD shouldn't be able to come even close to Spider-Man in the agility/reflexes area, but he does almost. Therefore, any limits you place on a character because his origin reads 'normal human' should be right up there near any other superheroes. I think the limit of 30 from FRED is perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 I would point out, before this turns into an NCM debate, that I consider "human limits" contextual to genre conventions and preferred reality distortion level. For groups that prefer a "grittier" and "more realistic" style of play (which I and my players do) "human limits" should be interpreted strictly (e.g. Conan with an 18-20 ST) For groups that prefer a "cinematic" or "mythic" style of play I can foresee stretching it a bit (e.g. Conan with a 21-25 ST). A large part of this rests on the shoulders of the GM, who must ensure the upper stats (15-20) actually mean something. A horde of 10 DX 2 SPD agents is very different from a horde of 14 DX 3 SPD agents. Both are acceptable play styles, and groups should do whichever they prefer, but no one from either camp should tell the other they "aren't doing it right" or that they are "missing the point." People play games for different reasons. For me its the grit and quasi-believability of "pseudo-realism" that allows me to suspend my disbelief and get into a game. For others what blows up their gaming kilts varies. I do think Hero should spend more time addressing differing reality distortion levels for HEROIC settings, or print some guidelines for adjusting their write ups for styles of play. I don't care what they do with Superheroic settings because I don't really play supers much anymore - and even when I do - I don't use their pre-published setting materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 After staring at Starlord's avatar for several minutes, I agree with him completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 I would also point out that the NCM is not the cap for characteristics. Far too many people think NCM is the point which cannot be exceeded. It is not. It is just the point where a player must start paying double cost. So the rules are not saying that no one can have more than a 20 STR or DEX in an NCM game, the rules are just saying that because it is rare to have more than a 20 you must pay double the cost for the ability to have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Watch Bruce Lee, or even Jackie Chan, move. I still think you could justify a 12 SPEED for either of those men. Seriously, take a stopwatch and some of their movies, and count the number of strikes, dodges, blocks, and other maneuvers in the course of 12 seconds. By the way, in case you think it's just movie magic, keep in mind that Bruce Lee had to slow his moves down for the camera. Of course, Bruce Lee might be considered superhuman by some metrics I've seen proposed on these boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Of course the speed thing breaks down anyway with firearms. Any schmoe should be able to fire more than 2 aimed shots in 12 seconds from a pistol or rifle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Originally posted by Gary Of course the speed thing breaks down anyway with firearms. Any schmoe should be able to fire more than 2 aimed shots in 12 seconds from a pistol or rifle. Speed really breaks down when you try to think of it in terms of time. So I just do not think of it in those terms. The only time a Segment is equal to 1 second in my game is when calculating MPH for movement. At any other time I just consider the Turn to be the "round" of combat and the Phases are how many attacks the player gets per "round." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 In my games I have something called Human Character Maxima, it is based on but is not NCM. Put simply this is the point that no matter how much training you have, how naturaly gifted you are, you can not surpass STR, DEX, CON, BODY,INT, EGO, PRE, COM is 30 PD, ED, MD (a stat in my games) is 12 SPEED is 6 REC is 15 STUN, END is 75 All characters have to limit them selves to these unless there concept explicitly states otherwise (A Brick will blow a lot of these out of the water). For the record, I also have a package deal for "Normal Humans", the only ones allowed to take NCM, they also have to take a couple of vulneribilities (Blasters x2 stun, Very Common, Mental x2 Effects), thinking of adding another required 5 point lim, just not sure which... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Since this is in the Champions Forum I would say you ought to look at the Champion Genre Book. It gives guidelines for what is superhuman and what isn't. For physical stats it's 30. Normal Characteristic Maxima means what it says: NORMAL. Normal does not equal Human. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone Posted November 7, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Originally posted by Monolith After staring at Starlord's avatar for several minutes, I agree with him completely. Hey, no fair! LOL =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartman Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Originally posted by Stone Hey, no fair! LOL =) Don't like it? Then get you own... um... persuasive avatar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartman Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 What I think is funny is that 30 is what my first GM established as human maxima back in the mid 80s. I have never viewed NCM as any sort of hard and fast limit and have usually had one characteristic above 20 in most fantasy etc. campaigns I have played in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Originally posted by Stone Hey, no fair! LOL =) All's fair in Love, War, and the NCM debate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Whew! 12 posts into the debate and nobody has brought up Rainbow Archer yet. Keep up the good work people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Originally posted by Starlord Whew! 12 posts into the debate and nobody has brought up Rainbow Archer yet. Keep up the good work people! Hm, now that you mention her.... Actually, I haven't seen the 5th Ed version of her, so I couldn't say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Originally posted by JmOz All's fair in Love, War, and the NCM debate I wasn't aware their was anything to debate. Different people have different styles of play, and different interpretations of various characters and genres. Hero can be applied to multiple reality distortion levels with relative ease. Those who build batman with a DX of 30 are no more correct than those who build him with a DX of 20. And neither of them is wrong, either, insofar as the campaign is internally consistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Originally posted by Hermit Actually, I haven't seen the 5th Ed version of her, so I couldn't say. No one has seen the 5E version of her. I do not think DOJ owns the rights to the character, and as such you probably will not see a 5E version unless Nick Smith desides to let someone else write her up, or someone does it illegally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Ah, thanks for the info. I was wondering if they were saving her for some other supplement or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Originally posted by D-Man I wasn't aware their was anything to debate. Different people have different styles of play, and different interpretations of various characters and genres. Hero can be applied to multiple reality distortion levels with relative ease. Those who build batman with a DX of 30 are no more correct than those who build him with a DX of 20. And neither of them is wrong, either, insofar as the campaign is internally consistent. HEY! Will you please stop with all the obvious logic and common sense? People are trying to have an NCM debate here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Now that I think about it, isn't there another female archer in CKC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Originally posted by Starlord Now that I think about it, isn't there another female archer in CKC? That would be Warpath, of the War Machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Originally posted by Starlord HEY! Will you please stop with all the obvious logic and common sense? People are trying to have an NCM debate here! If I wanted to debate the idea that a DEX 20 is suitable for Batman I would bring up that he is only getting a +2 advantage over a normal person's base dex roll. I would argue that it would be better to have a little more space in terms of break points between Batman and Ordinary Joe. But that would be if I was debating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phydaux Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Hmm... I always thought NCM was a character disadd worth 10 points. Maybe that was a few versions ago... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 Originally posted by phydaux Hmm... I always thought NCM was a character disadd worth 10 points. In standard superhero games it is still a Disadvantage, but it is worth 20, not 10 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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