The cost of Multiform

[Greywind]

Which is the true form, Banner or the Hulk?

[Scott Baker]

Which is the true form, Banner or the Hulk?

RAW, that's player's choice--based on character concept. 

[The Hawk God]

Okay, now for a new topic. 

 

What do you guys think about the ability to put Multiform in an Multipower?

 

Thanks

 

Hawk

[Hyper-Man]

It's legal according to RAW to put Multiform in a Framework (Multipower or VPP) because it is a Standard Power.  But since both are warning/stopsign abilities I would recommend reserving the Multiform/VPP combo for concepts that cannot be done any other way (like Marvel's Rogue or DC's Parasite).

[The Hawk God]

Thanks Hyper-man, but is Multiform a warning ability in your book, because it is not in mine (as in my pdf copy)

[Hyper-Man]

My bad. I'm just going on memory (no books available at the moment).

I was guessing on the stopsign/warning stuff.

[The Hawk God]

Not a problem, I am just trying to get a particular metamorph concept down right and a MP with growth (Giant Man Brick) and multiform slots (turn into a flying Yellowjacket/Wasp type) is my best construction.

[Pattern Ghost]

I'd consider building transformers with Shapeshift into vehicular form, since they don't really lose or gain abilities. The only thing I can think of is that some of their weapons won't work while shapeshifted, which can be handled with a small limitation equal to OIHID.

[Greywind]

Not to mention that people won't look at them funny as regular vehicles.

[Lucius]

Okay, now for a new topic. 

 

What do you guys think about the ability to put Multiform in an Multipower?

 

Thanks

 

Hawk

Something I would consider very carefully as it stacks two big discounts.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Multiform to Palindromedary

[Cantriped]

So According to a combination of the book plus Derek's ruling above, that paragraph should read: "Alternate forms must be regular characters (...), and are built on the same Total CP (including matching Complications) as the most expensive form." Is this phrasing correct? Even with this phrasing the rules still seem to contradict themselves. As it says on page 80 that "...the true form need not be the most expensive form." yet later less than a page later states that alternate forms (ie: not the true form) are built on the same Total CP or Fewer as the (true form/most expensive form). Also, what defines "Most Expensive Form"?... because at the moment it appears that character's "most expensive form" is always their true form, since even after purchasing multiform the alternate forms must have been built on equal to or less than the true form. However, at least according to special effect and common conception, the most expensive form is highly unlikely to be the True Form (Examples: Blassreiter, Hulk, Generator Gawl, etc).

[steriaca]

My copy of CC is at home, but the way you worded it looks about right.

[JmOz]

For the transformers option I would do it as just some ground movement linked to a single form Shapeshift

[Bodkins Odds]

Which is the true form, Banner or the Hulk?

 

Both, they merely can't exist at the same time. Oh, and Bruce is the one with anger issues's, they just leak out into Hulk who doesn't know how to handle them. Hulk just want to pet kitty, but kitty go squish too easy.

[Greywind]

Both, they merely can't exist at the same time. Oh, and Bruce is the one with anger issues's, they just leak out into Hulk who doesn't know how to handle them. Hulk just want to pet kitty, but kitty go squish too easy.

 

Doesn't work that way with Multiform. With OIHID, sure.

[GRiM]

I'm just getting back into Champions with my kids after last playing over 20 years ago, so this question may result from an idiotic misreading / misunderstanding of the current rules, but here goes:

 

Let's say we're building the DC character Beast Boy, using the standard  400 points and 75 points of Complications.  So we give his base form (green humanoid kid) a Multiform with 64 shapes and reversion to base form when knocked out.  Let's say each of those shapes is also built on 400 points.  Let's say (for the sake of argument) the multiform costs 63 points - I think some of the limitations I attached to lower the cost might be questionable (for example, all forms must be green, all forms must be animals), but it doesn't matter much.  It could cost 120 points and wouldn't really change the question.

 

Which is this: doesn't allowing him to have 64 different 400 point characters make him incredibly overpowered?  In Beast Boy's particular case, every form is limited to being an animal, but as I read the rules, there's no reason you couldn't use this to create a full-power Energy Projector, Brick, Speedster, Battlesuit, etc.  Yes, the base form becomes weaker, but the character could spend very little time in the base form (especially if you build it without reversion to base when knocked out).

 

As I recall from 4th edition and previous, the alternate forms couldn't be built on more points than the base form *minus* the cost of the multiform.  That seemed more reasonable to me, as it kept the alternates from being too powerful.

 

Thoughts?  Am I missing something here?

[Hyper-Man]

Multiform is currently priced to to allow reasonable solutions to certain special effects that cannot affordably built any other way.

 

That is, it's setup to show what it CAN be used for, not what it SHOULDN'T be used for.  The latter is the GM's job.

 

Multiform and Variable Power Pools (a Framwork, not a Power) should be handled with care.  They work best when the limits of what they can be used for are well defined at creation.  This helps with judging the pricing as well as giving the GM a good overview of character effectiveness.  In the case of Beast Boy in the original Cartoon Network Teen Titans show he used less than a dozen different forms on a regular basis (Elephant, T-Rex, Gorilla, Cheetah, Dog, Bird, Aquatic...)  And it really boiled down to - Really big & intimidating (Elephant & T-Rex), Agile & Strong (Gorilla), Fast w/Senses (Cheetah/Dog), Flight (Bird), Swimming/Breath Water (various Fish or Dolphin).  Being limited to Terestrial Fauna sets some pretty firm limits to what he could and could not do.  Always being Green also put limits on Stealth. 

 

Another similar character would be Ben 10 (a re-imagined Dial H for Hero).  He could actually take various super-forms but had limits on how long he could stay in a particular form and between changes.

 

The less obvious downside to building a character with Multiform is the extra cost required to actually increase individual forms with experience spent (ex: if points are spent on the base for a Skill and you want the other forms to have access to it you have to adjust the cost of the Multiform Power itself as well as the Skill.

[GRiM]

Thanks, Hyper-Man.  Your response makes sense, and I agree that Beast Boy is not objectionable given the limits on the forms.  Ben 10 strikes me as somewhat more potentially overpowered, since the alien forms have widely divergent powers - although in the series that seems adequately controlled by the forms either being somewhat involuntary or otherwise limited.

 

I'm just thinking about some of the people I played with in college, who would have abused the heck out of this mechanism.  I take your point that it's always within the GM's remit to simply say "no" to an abusive design, but my recollection is that it worked a lot better if there was something you could point to in the rules.  My recollection is also that back then we solved the "Hulk / Banner" dilemma through a limitation called "only in hero form," which seemed simpler.