D&D -style spells, and other adventure related things

[bpmasher]

Been working over some details for my fantasy skirmish game and I thought I might as well use the D&D established worlds to run some dungeon adventures with miniatures. I'll use the prestige classes and feats (powers) from D&D probably converted to Hero, and I was thinking about using a similar spell system as D&D uses.

 

So, as a Hero newbie, I got as far as spells having variable charges (memorized spells) depending on character "levels", so spells get added charges as soon as the character grows in power (freestyle though, like Hero is). PCs can choose which spells they gain affinity with, and get to add character points to those spells in order to increase their power and amount of charges allowed.

 

What sort of limitation would work as required rest period to charge up spells again? More exactly, how much worth is a limitation that requires rest after a set number of charges have been used?

 

Downtime comes, the dungeon is cleared, and the PCs get some deserved R&R at the local tavern -> PCs get ready for another adventure/skirmish. Fighter types can use their looted gold to buy new weapons and learn new maneuvers, spellcasters use hard-earned experience to level up their skills and spells. Rinse and repeat. The challenge would come from the deadly combat and leveled fights by finding out proper monster character point amounts and gradually introducing more dangerous monsters into the game.

 

So far the game is conceptually just a fantasy combat simulator, using optional combat rules from Hero to add depth to the skirmish -style combat, but as the characters grow in power, the scope of the game could grow too to include mass combat or such things for example. A campaign map could be used from any of the D&D setting books to establish locations and the type of terrain the battles will be fought in (what color the terrain mat is , so the game has a sense of adventure in it.

 

One could even use ready-made adventure modules and just include the fluff as read text (or told in a dramatic voice, just for fun), in a similar vein that war games use scenario background info as flavor text. Then play out the battles that ensue in those adventures. Ready-made NPCs to use as cannon fodder or deadly bosses come included in adventure modules.

 

All sorts of dungeons could be of course modeled, by using rules for generating, detecting and disarming traps, or getting burnt by them, and finding loot and random monster encounters. No need for pricey modules. Then of course, one can always set up their own little worlds and stories once people get fed up with the standard D&D campaign settings.

[Lucius]

 

How charges recover depends on the special effects of the Power. If an archer has 12 charges representing arrows, they recover when the archer gets a chance to find, make, or buy more arrows. A priest may need to make it to a shrine and pray for an hour, a wizard may need a night's rest and a chance to study. There's no extra modifier for these, necessarily, unless maybe a charge is really easy to recover like you say an archer can easily pick up arrows even during a fight - then it's Recoverable Charges. Or really difficult for some reason, in which case there's a modifier for charges to that effect.

 

I don't know why you'd want to reproduce D&D style Vancian magic anyway, but it would just be regular Charges, unless there's a real chance of losing the spellbook or having it taken, in which case it may be an additional -1/4 Difficult to Recover.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I get a charge out of a palindromedary

[bpmasher]

I don't know why you'd want to reproduce D&D style Vancian magic anyway, but it would just be regular Charges, unless there's a real chance of losing the spellbook or having it taken, in which case it may be an additional -1/4 Difficult to Recover.

 

 

This way the spellcasters have ammo counts

[BlueCloud2k2]

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion3e/conversion3e.aspx

 

More specifically:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicDesign.aspx

 

and:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicSystemAdvisor.aspx

[Lucius]

This way the spellcasters have ammo counts

And the sword slingers don't.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And I still have a palindromedary

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah Shrike worked up a D&D to Hero conversion that seems solid and useful.  I can't stand Vancian magic, but if that's your bag, then have at it, man!

[bpmasher]

And the sword slingers don't.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And I still have a palindromedary

 

Hmm. What would be the alternative? Having spells cost END the same way sword bearers use END for maneuvers?

 

I like the idea of magic being limited in charges, since it would offer tactical decision making the same way for ex. if an anti-tank gun would run out of shells, or an MG running out of ammo or having to change barrels. The magic would have to be significantly more powerful than a sword if I'm going to use the charges/memorization framework.

 

I'm open to options though, haven't invested in anything yet (rules or otherwise). Fantasy Hero apparently has guidelines for designing magic systems, so I might get it.

[bpmasher]

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion3e/conversion3e.aspx

 

More specifically:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicDesign.aspx

 

and:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicSystemAdvisor.aspx

 

This is a good conversion and has extensive notes on magic systems too. Thanks for the links.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Sure, the alternative is to have spells cost "mana" or Endurance, tapping into a pool of power.  Since spells generally cost more than joe sword swinger's END Cost, its going to be more limited but very flexible for the mages.  What this does is make the spell caster less about managing numbers of spells and more about deciding what spells to use with their limited pool of energy.

[Markdoc]

It's not just a question of END - ultimately, the swordsman has one problem-solving technique: hit it with a piece of sharp metal. A mage has - potentially - an unlimited range of solutions. While I am not a huge fan of the D&D implementation of vancian magic, one thing it does do, is ensure that a wizard cannot automatically have a solution for every problem, because he has to choose his solutions before he knows for sure what the problems will be. Together with the fact that magic-users have a limited amount of power to use per day, that balances the scales somewhat.

 

If that's what you want, there are multiple ways to achieve it. The closest to an actual vancian (or more accurately, "Dying Earth"/ "Lyonesse") style magic is a simple VPP with all spells taking the extra time, concentration, skill roll and apparatus limitations, plus the trigger advantage. I've used this myself in my games and it works fine. If you want to make it really Vancian, add "Independent" which means it's all about the apparatus - anybody can potentially cast spells, if they have your spellbook and magical gear (and then you can't), thought the results could be amusing if they lack the skill necessary to do it properly. See, for example "Cugel the Clever".

 

In my games, I use LTE as a limiter - spells cost LTE instead of normal END, so that spellcasting gradually exhausts the caster.

 

I think the single most important thing is to decide the "feel" you want magic to have and work from there to build it.

 

cheers, Mark

[Marrethiel]

The game I am planning will have all magic run through an END reserve that only recovers 1 END per day. This way mages can let lose with some high crunch power but will be crippled for weeks to come. Doing it this way gives me several cool tactical / strategic options, hope.

 

The big bad can have a huge END pool and the players will know this and will have to plan for that.

Evil characters can sacrifice (aka Defiling) to fill their END pool, but if they do their recovery goes down to 1 / week.

Players will have to manage their END very carefully, it will be my job to tempt them to use it up.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I use a modified Long Term END system, in which spells cost mana, but also cost 1 long term END per cast.  So eventually, the mage becomes so worn out that they have to rest.  Technically they can in desperation, cast more spells, but then they suffer stun damage. Its ended up nicely in games, such as the ship to ship combat where the mage dominated the other ships then had to go below decks and sleep while the rest of the party mopped up.

[Lucius]

Hmm. What would be the alternative?

Alternatives. In the plural. There are infinite alternatives.

 

Having spells cost END the same way sword bearers use END for maneuvers?

That would be one. Given the END cost many spells would have, that could be a serious limiter.

 

I like the idea of using an END Reserve, labled "Mana Pool." Then you have endless possible variations on how that recovers. It could fill up after a brief rest, or overnight, or longer term than that, or there could be conditions, so it could require consuming a "mana potion" or sacrificing a gemstone or spending time in a special place or...

 

Or have them all be zero END, meaning no limits on how often (probably not what you want) but more expensive so a character would have fewer or weaker spells.

 

Or have Activation Roll and Side Effects, making the decision "do I want to use this power but risk it blowing up in my face?"

 

Or others I didn't think of

 

Lucius Alexander

 

There are always alternatives. If one gets tired of palndromedaries there are always backandforthtrians.

[bpmasher]

Alternatives. In the plural. There are infinite alternatives.

 

 

That would be one. Given the END cost many spells would have, that could be a serious limiter.

 

I like the idea of using an END Reserve, labled "Mana Pool." Then you have endless possible variations on how that recovers. It could fill up after a brief rest, or overnight, or longer term than that, or there could be conditions, so it could require consuming a "mana potion" or sacrificing a gemstone or spending time in a special place or...

 

Or have them all be zero END, meaning no limits on how often (probably not what you want) but more expensive so a character would have fewer or weaker spells.

 

Or have Activation Roll and Side Effects, making the decision "do I want to use this power but risk it blowing up in my face?"

 

Or others I didn't think of

 

Lucius Alexander

 

There are always alternatives. If one gets tired of palndromedaries there are always backandforthtrians.

 

As a true backandforthrian, I take ages to decide which minis I purchase for example. My WW2 project is moving along slowly but steadily, but deciding on vehicles and minis can be a daunting task when seeking the optimal solution.

 

Thanks for the suggestions.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Vancian style magic system is easy. design all your individual spells.

 

The character then pays for a Naked Charges limitation/advantage that applies across all spells. so then when the character next studies their magic, they decide to which spells these charges apply. as the character grows in power, they can add more charges to the pool. pretty simle.

[mikeward2534]

Hmm, the 6e1 book has a toolkitting box (sorry can't remember the page) on this where it suggests adding a new Characteristic called MANA and having it cost 1 xp per 10 MANA. The book then says have it recover 1 MANA per month like Body, but you could tweak that to whatever you wanted. Just another thought that doesn't have to deal with charges.

 

NOTE: I think it's under the characteristics section under END, not 100% sure at the moment though.

[mhd]

My current campaign uses two custom attributes, "Mana" and "Mana Recovery", which function pretty much like regular REC and LTE. Works pretty great, although I wouldn't consider this neither Vancian nor D&D-ish. D&D always had a pretty short-term resource cycle when it came to magic (and nowadays hit points as well). Unless you really went for the Bastard GM trophy by severely limiting the re-memorization time (in older editions, where it wasn't just a flat hour).

 

One issue that I had in HERO was that its balance is really centered around combat, i.e. short bursts of intense action. END is vital, but recovers pretty fast. Extra Time is a big issue in combats, cutting down your actions per combat big time.

Now, if your MANA doesn't recover as fast, even relatively tiny drains (per minute, per hour) add up. And the regular per phase drains are way more important than a per phase END drain for the Fightey Dude. Although if magic is the only source of "super powers" in the campaign, this might just be the inherent "tax".