So I'm thinking of runing a Cyber HERO game...

[BlueCloud2k2]

My Pathfinder campaign is going to be winding down soon, so I'm plotting ahead. Right now my options are 1) a Pathfinder-system Age of Worms adventure path update, or 2) Either Shadowrun (using Cyber HERO updated to 5.5) or maybe break down and buy Kazei 5

 

Assuming I decide to go with Cyberpunk, I'm thinking of using the following house rules to make the d20 centric people happy:

 

1) Attack rolls are 3d6 + OCV vs 10 + DCV.

2) Skill rolls are 3d6 + Total Modifiers using a sliding scale for Difficulty Class (Easy is a DC of 5 where Hard is a 20 and Near-impossible is a 30+

3) Do not have power builds for weapons and equipment, just a short description of what they do (similar to how d20 handles equipment).

 

Character Generation Guidelines as follows (spoilered for Length; Updated on 11/23/2014):

 

 

 

Character Generation Guidelines for Cyber-City 2099

 

Ruleset: 6^th Edition Characteristics with 5^th Edition Skills, Talents, Perks and Powers. Power Advantages and Disadvantages will be 5^th Edition with the the Exception of AVLD to be replaced with AVAD.

 

Characters will be built on 150 Base Points with 50 points of Matching Complications.

 

Building a Character:

 

To make building a character more streamlined characters will be built using the following packages:

 

• Racial Template – 25 points

• Characteristics Template – 50 Points

• Skills Templates – 25 points each

 

Note: Racial Templates may include Complications and should be chosen first.

 

Racial Templates:

 

Baseline Humans: a Baseline human has not been affected by the Gene-Mod Virus nor has any form of cyber-prosthesis. Baseline humans use the following package:

 

Cost Name

6 Multi-Talented: Pick two of the following: Ambidexterity, Bump of Direction, Lightning Calculator, Lightsleep, Perfect Pitch

9 Broad Skill Base: pick three 3-pt skills

3 Skilled: Skill Level: +1 with three related skills

2 Bi-lingual: Fluency with an extra language

5 Anything Goes: 5 Points to be spent however.

 

 

Gene-Modified Humans:

In the year 2022, a privatized research group looking to turn humanity into the “Master Race” created a Gene-Mod Virus to target certain characteristics in the human genome and enhance them. Unfortunately, the virus escaped before it could be finished and thanks to its long incubation time, managed to reach every continent before symptoms appeared.

 

The Gene-Mod Virus caused semi-random mutations in infect citizens (mostly affecting children and the elderly, thanks to their weakened immune systems). These mutations had no affect on 40% of the human population, killed 10%, and the remaining 50% were greatly changed into one of four forms: Elf, Naga, Orc, and Troll (named for the physical changes that occurred).

 

• "Elf" - a genetically enhanced human with increased reflexes and senses, but often suffers from lower strength and constitution; Some Elves have further modification for "Kitsune" or "Catgirl" effects. Elves generally have Blonde, Platinum Blonde, or Brown hair with Blue or Green eyes, Tapered Ears, and fair complexion. In the North-American-Federation, Urban Lower-class Elves have dark skin and Platinum-Blonde or White hair with Purple eyes. In Japan, and areas with high concentrations of “Otaku” some Elves use cosmetic surgery and cyber-prosthesis to physicall alter themeselve into Kitsune or Nekomi

  • "Kitsune" - Elf that has been altered to have fox-like features. Alteration is a mix of plastic surgery and further genetic modification. Kitsune often have needle-like teeth, red or reddish-brown fur, and purple, yellow, or green eyes.

  • "Nekomi" - As Kitsune, only more feline appearance. Fur tone ranges from White, Black, Gray, Gold, or Orange, with stripes, streaks, or dots of another color. Some Catgirls have a lion-like mane. Eye color ranges from Yellow, Green, Blue, or Amber.

• "Naga" - a genetically enhanced human with increased reflexes and senses, often suffering from dimminished strength and constitution with snake-like features. Some Nagas have increased Endurance and healing.

• "Orc" - a genetically enhanced human with increased strength, constitution and heighten senses, but often suffers from decreased mental facilities and reflexes

• "Troll" - Strength and Constitution enhancements greater than Orcs, but often suffer greater reductions in mental facilities; Trolls often have greater Endurance and healing ability than Orcs.

There are rumors of a fifth mutation race, called 'Ghouls.' It is unknown if Ghouls are just an urban legend or something else. Rumour has it that these Ghouls are more savage than Orcs or Trolls, and are cannibals to boot.

 

Elf Package Deal:

Cost Name

6 Agile: +3 DEX

9 Fast: Pick one:

+1 SPD and -1 STUN

3 Levels Lightning Reflexes

1 Level Combat Luck and 1Level Lightning Reflexes

-2 Reduced Strength: -2 STR

-2 Reduced Vitality: -2 CON

3 Quick-stride: +1 running, +1 REC

6 Perceptive: +2 PER all senses

5 Elvish Eyes: UV Perception

 

Cost Complications

10 DF: Elf (Concealable with Effort, Noticed and Recognized)

 

Kitsune/Nekomi Package Deal (purchased in addition to Elf Package Deal):

Cost Name

12 Retractable Cyber-Claws: HKA 1d6; Restrainable (-1/4)

9 Neural-Accelerator: Choose a second “Fast” option from the “Fast” portion of the Elf Package

1 Sub-dermal plating: 1 point of PD and ED are resistant

3 Quick-claw: 3 levels Lightning Reflexes with Claws

 

Cost Complications (Supercedes Elf Complications)

10 DF: Kitsune (Concealable with Effort, Noticed and Recognized)

10 Physical Limitation: Requires Special Medical Attention (Infrequently, Greatly)

 

 

Characteristic Packages:

Athletic: +5 STR, +5 CON, +1 SPD, 1 PD, +4 REC, +10 END, +5 BODY, +10 STUN

Agile: +5 DEX, +1 OCV, +1 DCV +1 SPD, +4 REC, +8 END, +8 STUN

Smart: +10 INT, +5 EGO, +5 PRE, +1 OCV, +1 OMCV, +1 DMCV, +1 SPD, +4 END, +5 STUN

Willful: +5 INT, +10 EGO, +10 PRE, +1 OMCV, +1 DMCV, +1 SPD, +4 END, +5 STUN

 

Skills Packages

 

Everyman Skills: Climbing, Concealment, Conversation, Deduction, Paramedic, Persuation, Shadowing, Stealth, TF (Small Motorized Ground Vehicles), AK (Home City), PS (Player's Choice)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thoughts?

 

EDIT: I may wind up doing a one-shot or three-shot to give them a taste of the game.

Edited November 23, 2014 by BlueCloud2k2

[Steve]

I'm a fan of Kazei Five, so I really recommend it.

 

Using a d20 will cause tremendous variance in numbers, since there is a 5% chance of anything coming up. Three d6 is a more stable range of rolls with occasional outliers.

 

You could try it con game style and have a selection of pre-made characters to choose from. I did that when I was the GM playtesting the book with my group. We did a cyborg squad and a group of espers as two separate mini-campaigns.

[TheQuestionMan]

Cyberpunk 2020  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk_2020  

 

Cyberpunk Role Playing Games  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cyberpunk_role-playing_games  

[TheQuestionMan]

Metacyber by Killershrike  

http://www.killershrike.com/MetaCyber/MetaCyber.aspx   

 

Silent Mobius Zeta by Surbrook's Stuff 

http://www.devermore.net/surbrook/worldbooks/smz/silentmobius.html  

 

Appleseed by Surbrook's Stuff  

http://www.devermore.net/surbrook/adaptationsanime/animechar.html  

 

Neo by Surbrook's Stuff 

http://www.devermore.net/surbrook/adaptationsmovie/asstd_movie/neo.html  

 

Shadow punk by KAZE9999  

http://www.herogames.com/forums/files/file/43-shadowpunk/    

[TheQuestionMan]

Cyberpunk Hero Resources  

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/55179-cyber-hero-resources/  

[TheQuestionMan]

Rifts Hero Package Deals  

http://home.comcast.net/~mathewignash/champions.html  

[TheQuestionMan]

Kazei 5 PBEM by Surbrook's Stuff  

http://www.devermore.net/surbrook/worldbooks/kazei5/kazei5.html  

[BlueCloud2k2]

Thanks for the links, QuestionMan.

 

Here is a brief overview of what I'm thinking:

 

I'm thinking of increasing the Character Creation Points to 200 points with 50 points of matching complications, as I'm using following 6th ed's doing away with figured characteristics. Racial Templates will be 50 points, Characteristic Templates will be 50 points, and Skills Templates will remain at 25 points.

 

Racial Templates:

Standard Human - a natural born, un-modified human. What they lack in changes from the other templates they make up for in Talents, Characteristics, and Skill Levels.

 

Gene-Mod templates: these are semi-random mutations causes by the Gene-Mod retro-virus. The Gene-Mod virus was originally designed to be used to create a 'master race' but most of the mutations were mutually exclusive and often caused severe physical deformities. The virus mostly affected people with weakened immune systems since it was piggy-backed onto a Flu viral strain. People born between 2022 and 2034 are often referred to as the "Lost Generation" as they were hit-hardest by the Gene-Mod Virus. While more affluent citizens were able to afford the Nano-Vaccine and Genetic Reconstruction to "cure" the mutations, lower income residents were unable to be cured thus a high number of Poverty-stricken were left as Elves, Orcs, Nagas, and Trolls. All Gene-Mod Templates will have the Distinctive Features Complication.

 

"Elf" - a genetically enhanced human with increased reflexes and senses, but often suffers from lower strength and constitution; Some Elves have further modification for "Kitsune" or "Catgirl" effects. Elves generally have Blonde, Platinum Blonde, or Brown hair with Blue or Green eyes, Tapered Ears, and fair complexion. In the North-American-Federation, Urban Lower-class Elves have dark skin and Platinum-Blonde or White hair with Purple eyes.

 

"Kitsune" - Elf that has been altered to have fox-like features. Alteration is a mix of plastic surgery and further genetic modification. Kitsune often have needle-like teeth, red or reddish-brown fur, and purple, yellow, or green eyes.

 

"Catgirl" - As Kitsune, only more feline appearance. Fur tone ranges from White, Black, Gray, Gold, or Orange, with stripes, streaks, or dots of another color. Some Catgirls have a lion-like mane. Eye color ranges from Yellow, Green, Blue, or Amber.

 

"Naga" - a genetically enhanced human with increased reflexes and senses, often suffering from dimminished strength and constitution with snake-like features. Some Nagas have increased Endurance and healing.

 

"Orc" - a genetically enhanced human with increased strength, constitution and heighten senses, but often suffers from decreased mental facilities and reflexes

 

"Troll" - Strength and Constitution enhancements greater than Orcs, but often suffer greater reductions in mental facilities; Trolls often have greater Endurance and healing ability than Orcs.

 

Cybernetic Base Templates

Soft-shell - a Soft-shell cyborg often appears as a normal human, but all of their template points go into cyberware. Soft-shells have the Physical Limitation - Increased Body Weight

Hard-shell - as soft-shell cyborg, and gains the Distinctive Feature Complication

 

Characteristic Packages:

Athletic: +5 STR, +5 CON, +1 SPD, 1 PD, +4 REC, +10 END, +5 BODY, +10 STUN

Agile: +5 DEX, +1 OCV, +1 DCV +1 SPD, +4 REC, +8 END, +8 STUN

Smart: +10 INT, +5 EGO, +5 PRE, +1 OCV, +1 OMCV, +1 DMCV, +1 SPD, +4 END, +5 STUN

Willful: +5 INT, +10 EGO, +10 PRE, +1 OMCV, +1 DMCV, +1 SPD, +4 END, +5 STUN

 

That's all I have for now.

[TheQuestionMan]

Everyman Skills

[LouGoncey]

I would love to see how you actually made the skills -- what skills made up the skill packages and what the costs would end up being? (Do you just combine the costs of the individual skills in the bundle into the actual cost?)

[BlueCloud2k2]

I haven't made it that far, but will post when I'm done. I haven't decided on how many skills packages or "archetypes" I want, just yet.

 

Probably going to give each PC a 75-pt Equipment pool (to cover Weapons, Body Armor, Cyberware, vehicles and bases) and a 5 points contact/favor pool.

[mikeward2534]

I'd be interested in seeing how this works out when you get it ready to run. I was contemplating running a cyber hero game myself at some point, but haven't yet looked deep enough into anything.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Updated the Original Post.

 

Everyman Skills

 

Added to OP, and here it is again to save you the grief

 

Skills Packages

 

Everyman Skills: Climbing, Concealment, Conversation, Deduction, Paramedic, Persuation, Shadowing, Stealth, TF (Small Motorized Ground Vehicles), AK (Home City), PS (Player's Choice)

[BlueCloud2k2]

I would love to see how you actually made the skills -- what skills made up the skill packages and what the costs would end up being? (Do you just combine the costs of the individual skills in the bundle into the actual cost?)

 

You want me to PM you when I get there?

[Killer Shrike]

http://www.killershrike.com/MetaCyber/MetaCyber.aspx

 

MetaCyber is 5e, but aside from the point shift to accomodate no figured, it works the same in 6e.

 

MetaCyber isn't pure cyberpunk, it's cyberpunk plus mutants...it precedes "Alphas", but that kind of mutant vs full on X-Men mutants. You can easily excise the mutant angle if you want a more pure Cyberpunk blend.

 

MetaCyber uses resource pools heavily; this is explained on the Starting page ( http://www.killershrike.com/MetaCyber/MetaCyberParadigm_Starting.aspx ); in summary, an Equipment Pool, a Vehicle / Base Pool, and a Contacts / Followers Pool are assumed to be in use and characters start with some number of free points in them. This is standard, right out of 5e Dark Champions.

 

 

One of the main hooks of MetaCyber was four "origins" which would be the equivalent of a "race" in a game with multiple sentient races. ( http://www.killershrike.com/MetaCyber/MetaCyberParadigm_Races.aspx )

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MetaCyber/MetaCyberCharacters_Origins.aspx

 

The Origins are Ampers, Adepts, Tubers, and Metas. Each origin offers an advantage.

 

All characters can have BodyTech (cyber, bioware, pharmitech, biofeedback), but Ampers can start with a lot more of it. BodyTech is very thoroughly detailed ( http://www.killershrike.com/MetaCyber/MetaCyberCharacters_BodyTech.aspx ), and each kind offers different pros and cons. A person can benefit from more than one kind if they wish.

 

Adepts are skilled professionals who get things done through sheer competence, and a secondary theme of getting the most benefit out of resource pools. Adepts can also have BodyTech, but they don't get any starting incentive to facilitate it; they pay full cost for any BodyTech they start with. They can however have "Super Skills"; and as a side note Combat Luck and Deadly Blow are considered to be Super Skills in MetaCyber, so there is that as well. Adepts also tend to have a lot of gear.

 

Tubers are test tube babies, genetically modified (g-mod) people. To play a Tuber you commit to a randomly rolled Tuber Package ( http://www.killershrike.com/MetaCyber/MetaCyberCharacters_Origins_TuberPackage_Printer.aspx#TUBER ) and you get what you get. One of the main advantages to doing this is that NCM does not apply to any characteristic boosts gained. Additionally, the randomizer can serve up some borderline minor metapowers like bullet resistant flesh, improved senses, and things like that.

 

Metas are mutants. At character creation you get to choose a meta ability, which serves as justification for any sort of power that you can thematically relate to your meta ability. If you don't want meta's in your campaign, just drop this Origin and they don't exist; nice and tidy.

 

 

 

Two parrallel versions of hacking are offered.

 

Decking is a "matrix" VR style of accessing Neurally Enabled Content (NEC) in Mindscapes via one or more Avatars ( http://www.killershrike.com/MetaCyber/MetaCyber_Technology_NET_GameMechanics.aspx ) using Net Decks. This is the cinematic cyberpunk hacking people expect. Mechanically, it's basically a structured way to have a game within a game as the virtual spaces the GM describes can be themed as practically anything.

 

Hacking on the other hand is all skills based from meat space and essentially model real world hacking. I added a sizeable extension to the Computer Programming skill ( http://www.killershrike.com/MetaCyber/MetaCyber_Technology_ComputerProgramming.aspx ) with extended rules for writing software, describe numerous computer languages assumed to be in use in the MetaCyber setting and what they are used for, and provide specific guidance on hacking and system alerts that betray a hack.

 

 

There are also a lot of sample characters, including re-cast versions of the Libra team from 5e Dark Champions ( http://www.killershrike.com/MetaCyber/MetaCyberArtGallery_Libra.aspx ), and a lot of original characters. All in all, MetaCyber is one of the gaming projects I'm most proud of. There's a lot of cyberpunkish goodness to be mined from it, even for those not intending to use it as presented...even a random Cyberpunk plot generator ( http://www.killershrike.com/MetaCyber/MetaCyberGM_PlotGenerator.aspx ).

[BlueCloud2k2]

Yeah I've been reading through your Meta Cyber stuff along with what Surbrook has up on his site.

 

This might be getting shelved for a bit until my Pathfinder campaign gets closer to resolving. My players are leaning heavily towards the Age of Worms AP updated to Pathfinder and only my wife is really interested in branching out, Genre wise.

 

Not enough people in my area willing to play anything other DnD/Pathfinder, sadly

[Killer Shrike]

Yeah I've been reading through your Meta Cyber stuff along with what Surbrook has up on his site.

 

This might be getting shelved for a bit until my Pathfinder campaign gets closer to resolving. My players are leaning heavily towards the Age of Worms AP updated to Pathfinder and only my wife is really interested in branching out, Genre wise.

 

Not enough people in my area willing to play anything other DnD/Pathfinder, sadly

 

Yeah, a lot of that going around. As it happens the gaming project that I'm currently working on is Pathfinder Fate Accelerated. I don't mind (terribly) the Pathfinder setting or concepts. But if I never play a d20 based game again it will be too soon.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/Fate/Fae/Pathfinder/Menu.aspx

[bigbywolfe]

I'd rather play a d20 based game than Fate Accelerated.  Fate Core is alright, but FAE is the one of the worst systems I've ever been forced to use.

[Killer Shrike]

I'd rather play a d20 based game than Fate Accelerated.  Fate Core is alright, but FAE is the one of the worst systems I've ever been forced to use.

 

Not to hijack the thread, but care to share why?

 

Also, if you check out my hack, I added in a second vector of Capabilities (Combative, Roguish, Focused, Arcane, Divine, Primal) to create a two-column variant. Capabilities are what you are doing and provide justification for archetypical actions, Approaches are how you go about doing it.

 

So, an invoker might "cast a Fireball" while being Flashily Arcane, while a sly mountebank might deceive someone with a plausible lie while being Cleverly Roguish, and a mighty thewed warrior might weave an impenetrable web of steel while being Carefully Combative. Etc.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/Fate/Fae/Pathfinder/PathfinderFateAccelerated.aspx

[bigbywolfe]

In my experience FAE has no shtick preservation at all, everyone can do everything and 80%+ of the time they can do it with their best or second best Approach (or whatever it's called).  I've seen convention games where players spend more time justifying their approach/attribute choice than they spend actually doing anything.  At least Fate Core has a broader set of skills so there's not nearly as much overlap. 
Your house rule seems to negate the entire purpose of playing FAE, why not just play real Fate and make use its "granularity".  (Huh, never thought in a million years I would refer to Fate as "granular", but compared to Accelerated...).

[Killer Shrike]

In my experience FAE has no shtick preservation at all, everyone can do everything and 80%+ of the time they can do it with their best or second best Approach (or whatever it's called).  I've seen convention games where players spend more time justifying their approach/attribute choice than they spend actually doing anything.  At least Fate Core has a broader set of skills so there's not nearly as much overlap. 

Your house rule seems to negate the entire purpose of playing FAE, why not just play real Fate and make use its "granularity".  (Huh, never thought in a million years I would refer to Fate as "granular", but compared to Accelerated...).

 

Well...

 

1) it's not a "house rule" as in "there's this thing the rules say to do that we don't like so we do that one specific thing differently", it is a rules variant aka "hack" as the Fudge community prefers to call it. Fate is a Fudge hack, and all versions of Fate are hacks. Fudge was designed to be hackable, and that intrinsic quality is inherited by most of its descendants. In fact, the Fate Toolkit is a published set of suggested hacks, and most published uses of Fate present at least one rules variant or hack from the baseline. That is the nature of Fate; to be modular and adaptable.

 

2) The statement, "Your house rule seems to negate the entire purpose of playing FAE,", would seem to suggest that there is one and only one "purpose" to playing FAE.

• Also, that's a pretty flippant and dismissive way to write-off a rather large body of work without pause for consideration. The same care and attention I pay to the HERO System material I've done over the years has been applied to this project. All I would ask is that if you've perceived value in any of the things I've presented in the past and have some smidgin of respect for work I do, you pause a moment and consider that if I'm spending my time on this it might be of some merit. But, ultimately, dismissing it out of hand is of course your prerogative, so I'm not going to dwell on it. Moving on...

 

Perhaps your perceived "purpose for playing FAE" and the value I perceive in using FAE are different.

 

This is going to get long, but you asked a legitimate question and I'm going to endeavor to give it full treatment. All of the below is prefaced with "in my opinion" or "as I see it", and of course "other people's mileage may vary".

 

Essentially, FAE and Fate Core are ~90% the same game; all the essential elements are identical between them. In the interests of minimalism FAE pares away a few things, but they can all be added back from Fate Core singly or collectively. For instance:

• FAE lacks Extras but the idea of Extras can expressly be added back
• FAE simplifies Stunts via templating, but more complicated Stunts can be added back
• FAE simplifies bad guy write-ups, but more complicated write-ups and variety of write-ups (i.e. mobs) can be added back

That leaves the primary difference between the two, which is fundamentally a difference in "skill list". FAE offers six extremely broad "skills" that overlap significantly to the point that any of the skills could be used for putatively any activity if it seems to make sense to the narrative and makes sense for the character to be able to do it. The game also takes the position that your characters are generally assumed to succeed at things they are supposed to be able to do unless it is more interesting that they might "fail", and even when characters do "fail" they "fail forward" into the story thus moving the plot forward in "interesting" ways. The premise is that what is actually interesting to the story is not what your character does but rather how they go about doing it. That's the narrative storygame school of thought, and much could be said on that subject, but it isn't really relevant to the question at hand.

 

• As a side note, the "people spending all their time justifying their Approach choice" comment indicates a total lack of understanding of what FAE is encouraging. Players would justify what their character should be able to do via their Aspects (including their High Concept and any situation Aspects that might apply). Aspects are facts, and if it makes sense that a character is able to justify what they are attempting based upon their Aspects, then they choose the Approach and roll if the GM thinks it is necessary (generally if chance of failure or degree of success might be interesting or relevant). If a player chooses an Approach that seems at odds with what they are attempting, the GM is free to assess a higher difficulty, or spin the narrative appropriately. The GM can also just say "no", but no is boring; generally the GM is better off saying "yes, but...", often introducing some new hurdle or situation caused by the unusual choice of Approach. One of the rules of thumb is, what is more interesting is not the Approach that was chosen, but the Approaches that were not. Thus if a character is always Forceful, what is often more interesting is that they aren't being Sneaky, or Careful, or Clever, or Quick, or Flashy and the logical ramifications of that choice. Also, spending time debating or trying to convince the GM to allow you to do something is counter to the Fate mentality of putting the story first; there should be very little mechanical niggling going on in most Fate games, and that goes doubly so in a FAE game.
  • Put bluntly, I wasn't there, but based upon your comment "I've seen convention games where players spend more time justifying their approach/attribute choice than they spend actually doing anything.", the people were doing it wrong, ie missed the point of FAE entirely.

 

 

For purposes of this discussion, Fate Core takes the exact same position as FAE re: narrative resolution, it just offers a more standard list of narrower skills, thus giving the illusion of being a more traditional skills based rpg. But, and this is important, it really isn't. Aspects are still facts, and justifications to affect the narrative still flow from them.

 

A Fate Core character does not roll Shoot to attack an opponent because it's a skill based game and the character has the skill, and thus ipso facto justifies shooting people; that is putting the cart before the horse. Rather, the Fate Core character should have at least one Aspect that suggests or even demands that they are familar with the use of a gun. When the story evolves such that shooting a gun is relevant, and the player portrays their character acting in accordance with their Aspects (aka the character's concept), they choose to take an action involving the use of a gun. If a skill list is in use that includes a shooting skill of some kind (such as the default skill list), the player gets to add any bonus they have with that skill to the roll.

 

The mechanical resolution flows from the narrative and Aspects, not the other way around. Said another way, skills do not provide narrative justification, they reenforce Aspects.

 

From this perspective, a skill list is entirely superfulous and just provides bonuses to rolls. You can play Fate without any skills at all, and just use Aspects; off the top of my head there's at least one variant suggested in the Fate Toolkit that does this. You could also just allow stunts to take the place of skills entirely, which FAE sort of does.

 

---

So, compared to FAE, Fate Core offers a default skill list, mental and physical stress consequences tracked separately, and uses Extras, free-form Stunts, and "mob" minions. This leads me to the following burn down:

• Skill lists are modular and pluggable to suit a campaign, up to and including not having any skills.
  • For purposes of playing D&D style fantasy, the default Fate Core skill list isn't particularly compelling or a "good fit"
  • I don't think a really long skill list is good for D&D style fantasy; I think a lot of the flavor of D&D boils down to the broad archetypes (warrior, rogue, savant, and the differentiation between arcane, divine, and nature magic)
    • "rogue" being a catch all term for pragmatic characters with practical problem solving abilities (i.e. as the term was used circa AD&D 2e, rather than the "rogue" class circa 3e)
    • "savant" being a catch all term for characters built around supernormal / unusual abilities like monks and psions
  • So, hey, why not just make that the "skill" list?
• I like the interesting Approaches dynamic of "how" the character does something; the adverby, narrative flow of it can really help inject more energy into the game.
  • I see this as a feature not a flaw
    • However I do think that having the Approaches stand alone as the only "crunchy" bits puts too much strain on the players and the GM to keep it fresh over multiple sessions (there's only so many ways to narrate Forcefully doing things before it gets a bit stale)
    • The lack of crunch also makes it harder than usual to differentiate lots of characters. When there are only three or maybe four characters with full write-ups there is room for differentiation, but after ten or twenty characters they start to look pretty similar on paper.
    • I think this lack of granularity is the main reason FAE as written tends to work best for one off pick up games (in my opinion)
  • Back in the day I played a lot of White Wolf / original World of Darkness, (and a little bit of Ars Magica before that...because I'm so hip I did it all before it was cool    ), and I always liked the nuances of the Attribute + Skill model...particularly finding ways to apply unusual combinations of the two, as it often resulted in more interesting outcomes and narrative description.
  • The default six approaches aren't too far removed from the classic D&D stats of Str, Int, Dex, Con, Wis, Cha. It isn't an exact map by any means, but that could be a good thing as some intriguing nuances suggest themselves. A high Str character might be Forceful, but they might also be Flashy (watch me do my feats of strength!) or even Quick (athletic phenom), or even Careful (gentle giant), a wise character might be Careful (wouldn't be prudent...) or Clever (wily old fox) or even Sneaky (only the hand that erases can write the true thing)...and so on.
• Would combining the six "skills" defining the broad archetypal capabilities of D&D with the default six Approaches of FAE offer anything interesting?
  • Would it make sense for a "wizard" to be Cleverly Arcane? Or for a swashbuckler to be Flashily Combative? Or for a monk to be Quickly Focused?
  • Does the idea of "Capabilties" offer sufficient value to outweigh the extra complexity they add?
    • It allows for a lot of interesting nuances in character design ( http://www.killershrike.com/Fate/Fae/Pathfinder/Characters/Iconics.aspx )
    • Adding in some tiers or rungs to Capabilities with full spellcasting and some of the more signature archetypical abilities associated with a higher tier offers a natural barrier to entry and role / niche protection
      • It also mildly echoes the idea of "levels" of ability, which is somewhat thematic to a D&D flavored hack
    • Six Approaches times six Capabilities yields thirty six (36) combinations; differing bonuses and differing thresholds of ability within the Capabilities deepens the effective number of distinct meaningful combinations further.
      • This addresses one of my main concerns with FAE, that with only six Approaches characters tend to "look" very similar on a casual once over.
    • And so on...short answer, as a thought experiment it does seem to offer some compelling pros.
    • It really isn't that much extra complexity. Given my gaming background and career, this doesn't even register as "complexity" for me.
      • Thus, for my purposes, no real con stood in the way of giving it a whirl.
• I don't see much value in tracking mental and physical stress & consequences seprately in most campaigns.
• Extras generally boil down to something that can be represented by a custom Stunt and / or a secondary character write-up and are equally usable in Fate Core or FAE
• Adding free form Stunts, and more Stunt templates to FAE is so simple it's not even worth discussing ( http://www.killershrike.com/Fate/Fae/Pathfinder/StuntOptions.aspx )
• Mob minions is so trivial to deal with, adding the concept to FAE usually boils down to a sentence on a given minion stating "can be treated as a mob, give some benefit & # of stress boxes per # of individuals in mob"
• The pdfs are "pay what you want", but the Fate Core hardback costs more than the $5 FAE softbound; I don't mind buying extra copies of FAE and giving them away in the same way I used to give away copies of Sidekick for the HERO System. I do mind giving away copies of Fate Core in bulk.
  • This, clearly, is a non-functional consideration, but a pragmatic one. Running a game with FAE vs Fate Core in a venue where new players are being introduced is not only easier to get off the ground as FAE is easier to explain and the pamplet sized rulebook is less intimidating to people who, for some reason, disklike reading...it is also economically feasible to give the players their own copy.
  • I've given away four copies of FAE to players and interested parties thus far, for the low cost of ~$20, and will give more away in the future if the opportunity presents itself. If even one of the people I've given a copy to goes on to play one more Fate or FAE game or recommends it to one other person, I consider it money well spent.
• My son is old enough to play simpler rpgs now and I often try to involve him in games. He read and understood FAE at age 7, and has no interest in reading Fate Core (even though all the main concepts are the same).

Therefore, I threw together the original version of the hack, my son made a character, I threw together a one off, and we gave it a whirl ( http://www.killershrike.com/Fate/Fae/Pathfinder/Adventures/BigFishIndeed/Chapters/Chapter1/Session1.aspx ).  It went well and was a lot of fun, so I wrote up some rules to handle spellcasting and asked an old gaming buddy to swing by the next weekend; he made a spellcaster and we played a second session ( http://www.killershrike.com/Fate/Fae/Pathfinder/Adventures/BigFishIndeed/Chapters/Chapter1/Session2.aspx ). After that second session I had about ten hours total invested in the entire enterprise, including the play time of the two sessions. We didn't run into any problems, and the entire thing was a lot of fun, so we decided to go ahead and try out a more serious campaign; I grabbed an Adventure Path and started translating material. A year and a few months later, we're still having fun with it, and material keeps aggregating. Other groups have used the hack for their own purposes and reportedly had fun with it as well. It's been a rewarding endeavor.

 

 

So, long story short, my purposes for using FAE are not necessarily the same as your "purpose for playing FAE", whatever you perceive that to be. 

[bigbywolfe]

I wasn't trying to be flippant, I was trying to be brief since this is a thread derail.
Short version: I've had some okay experiences playing Fate, though I would never bother to run it, but every single experience I have had with FAE has been horrible.
I wasn't disrespecting your work, I merely dislike the system just like you dislike d20.

[Killer Shrike]

I wasn't trying to be flippant, I was trying to be brief since this is a thread derail.

Short version: I've had some okay experiences playing Fate, though I would never bother to run it, but every single experience I have had with FAE has been horrible.

I wasn't disrespecting your work, I merely dislike the system just like you di SD like d20.

Well, preferences are what they are. Luckily there's a plethora of games to choose from.