LOS and mental power

[steph]

A mental power have to be LOS to work. Is it legal or would you agree to let a player use dive for cover abort for getting out of sight of a mental attack ?

 

Steph

[ghost-angel]

Yep. Assuming they can justify knowing it's a Mental Attack coming... But mechanically, totally legal.

[Surrealone]

I agree -- if they somehow know there's a mental power coming their way (i.e. they can perceive it, feel it, danger sense kicks in, whatever), dive for cover to deny line of sight works wonders ... unless the mentalist happens to have N-ray vision, a Mind Scan lock, or some other solution to the line of sight issue.

[ghost-angel]

Yeah, it's important to remember Line Of Sight means with Any Targeting Sense, not just Sight Group...

[Surrealone]

On the plus side, there's some real comic relief to be had watching a player dive out of the line of (sight group) sight of a villian they know is a mentalist ... only to be driven around like a remote controlled car by the mentalist anyway.

 

It really gets interesting as to what constitutes LoS if your mentalist happens to have hearing bought as a targetting sense (a la "I can hear you thinking") -- something I learned by playing a mentalist who had exactly that.  Tough to dive for cover out of the way of that one ... unless you're in New York City traffic, in which case just walk as usual and make sure he doesn't see you ... because he darn sure won't hear you over that din.

[bigdamnhero]

It's legit mechanically, but I think this is also the flipside of "don't interpret LOS too literally." So I'm a mentalist, I can see who & where you are, then you duck behind a paper curtain; I still know exactly who, what, and where you are...but my bran waves can't penetrate a piece of paper? Eh, I'd say there's some room for GM interpretation based on sfx, circumstances, etc. At a minimum, I'd probably give a DMCV bonus along the lines of being Behind Cover.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

It's legit mechanically, but I think this is also the flipside of "don't interpret LOS too literally." So I'm a mentalist, I can see who & where you are, then you duck behind a paper curtain; I still know exactly who, what, and where you are...but my bran waves can't penetrate a piece of paper? Eh, I'd say there's some room for GM interpretation based on sfx, circumstances, etc. At a minimum, I'd probably give a DMCV bonus along the lines of being Behind Cover.

Then again, a mentalist would have mental senses, thus allowing for line of sight. Remember LOS isn't just the Sight Group. 

[dmjalund]

if a perso has Mins Scan, ia barrier would;t stop him, allowing him to scan an aea with a number of people = 1 (area behind that barrier)

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

You are absolutely right.

[bigdamnhero]

If they have Mental Sense, Mind Scan, etc then yeah that's a no-brainer.

 

But even without it, I'm having trouble rationalizing how it would work given RAW states you don't have to literally keep an eye on the target the whole time, that Mental Powers can penetrate conventional barriers, and that continuing-effect powers can continue even after LOS is lost...I'm having trouble reconciling that with the notion that jumping behind a piece of paper stops me from targeting you. Again I don't dispute what RAW says; I'm just not sure how much sense it makes to me. Again, situation & sfx dependent.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its going to be tough to act before someone thinks, but sure!  And it would be kind of funny, because a lot of mentalists are built as frail little things.

[Rhino]

My recollection is that the rules talk about explicit LOS not being required, in that if you know someone is hiding in the trunk of a car or other specific area you can still target him with a mental attack power, albeit with a negative MCV, maybe even a 1/2 MCV.  I would use those parameters.  If someone aborts and dives for cover and moves out of LOS of the mentalist, then assuming the mentalist knows the specific/general area where he dove to, he could still attack with a negative MCV, maybe even a 1/2 MCV.  GM's call.

[ghost-angel]

The rule for Line Of Sight is "If you can target the character, you have Line Of Sight" - it's that simple.

 

You can't hold up a piece of paper and block LOS. You can run around the corner and block LOS.

 

Think of it as a gun, I can point the gun at you, I can target you, I will shoot at you. But if you literally run out of targeting sight, shooting you has no effect.

 

But, since Hero allows for Targeting with things other than Sight Group, if I can still Hear You, and still Target You via that Hearing then running around a corner is not going to help you much, getting out of visual range is pointless in this case.

 

So as long as a Dive For Cover gets you out of the way of the Mentalists Targeting Sense, you're good. Otherwise, your tiny meat brain is toast.

 

Rename "Line Of Sight" to "Line Of Targeting" and it hopefully becomes clear what will and won't save you from Mr. Mind Control forcing you to go make him a sandwich.

[bigdamnhero]

Rhino wins the thread! 6e1 p149 sez:

At the GM’s option, a character with a Mental Power may make a successful mental attack even when he does not have LOS. If the character attacks a target he cannot perceive, but of whose location he’s reasonably sure, halve his OMCV. If he lacks LOS but has a fairly precise idea of where a target is (for example, he knows someone’s hiding in a particular closet or the trunk of a car), his OMCV might only suffer a -1 to -3 penalty. To use this rule, the character must have some reasonable idea of the location of the target mind — he can’t just lash out at random, hoping to hit something with half OMCV. The GM determines whether a character can attempt an attack when he lacks LOS.

Yay! RAW agrees with me!

 

Think of it as a gun, I can point the gun at you, I can target you, I will shoot at you. But if you literally run out of targeting sight, shooting you has no effect.

But to continue that analogy: if you run behind a piece of drywall or something, I can still shoot at you. (Again, ignoring other targeting senses for simplicity's sake.) I might have an OCV penalty, but the bullets are not stopped by the drywall. Just like mental powers are not stopped.

[Surrealone]

I might have an OCV penalty, but the bullets are not stopped by the drywall. Just like mental powers are not stopped.

And to continue the analogy:

They might tumble sideways upon impact (hence the reduced OCV) ... and might also lose energy (i.e. have substantially reduced damage) due to loss of inertia while traveling through the drywall as well as the potential for hitting a stud behind the drywall. 

 

​Mental attacks ... not so much.  In fact, diving for cover behind a canvas tarp might just be enough to stop them ... depending on SFX.