PRE v EGO

[ghost-angel]

What I find funny here is at GenCon one year right after that MMORPG came out, they were doing a raffle for swag and asking Hero related quesitons; one question asked:

 

What's the most important/powerful characteristic in Hero?

 

Answer from crowd: DEX

 

Answer from Steve: PRE

 

Making the DEX cost even more baffling...

[Hugh Neilson]

I like it less well the very first phase of the very first battle.

 

I like it just fine the second phase of the fight, and in every subsequent fight, as the value of the DEX remains constant and your PRE gets less and less useful.

If your DEX is marginally higher than mine (say 26 and 25), and our SPDs are equal, you act first on each phase. Your advantage comes once - after that, we alternate actions.

 

If your DEX is 18 higher than mine 26 to 8) and my PRE is 35 higher than yours (55 to 20 - I have 1 CP left over), what happens? Well,11d6 x 3.5 on average = 38.5, so +18.5. So I act first this phase, and you only get a half phase. Or, following optional rules from 6er p 137, I double the duration of a "PRE +10", and I act first for two phases in which you get only a half phase. If all I want is to go first, I declare a +0, beat it by 18, so you hesitate and I act first for 8 phases. Sticking to the base rules, on a bit over average (or a 1d6 bonus), I get +20, you lose a full phase and are at half DCV. In which case, Multiple Attack should start the combat out well enough that you moving first later isn't going to matter.

 

I interpret "repeated PRE attacks against the same target are less effective" to be a fairly short-term effect, not extending in perpetuity. The Avengers don't seem to get "used to" Captain America, Batman doesn't seem to be less impressive to his enemies or allies over time. Definitely drops during the same combat, though.

 

But a 9d6 attack (we're also in combat now, which is a further -1d6) will still average +10 on your PRE, meaning a half phase for you, and hesitation so I move first again. I get three more phases (down to 6d6) where I still act first on average rolls. Tack on some violent actions (like, I don't know, a Multiple Attack against your halved DCV, plus a PRE attack that takes no time, when I take my phase), appropriate interaction skill rolls (which a 55 PRE means I am pretty good at), etc. and I can keep you at half phases, or at least moving slower, even longer.

 

I don't think that DEX is worth twice as much as PRE.

[Manic Typist]

Based on this conversation, if I ever get to build a PC again, I'm going to strongly consider really going through the rules for PRE and related abilities...

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well, lets put it this way: someone with 30+ presence is a massively commanding force, but it takes a player with talent and understanding of the system to use properly.  Combine that with a presence drain ability and it gets even more potent.

[ghost-angel]

To veer slightly back onto topic;

 

STR

-Damage

-Lift

 

DEX

-Agility Skills

-Initiative

 

CON

-Stunned Threshold

 

INT

-Intellect Skills

-Perception

 

PRE

-Interaction Skills

-Presence Attack & Defense

 

EGO

-Mental Powers Effect Threshold

 

Everything provides two functions except CON and EGO; if combat were so important to the base aspect of the game, then the ability to resist being Stunned would surely be extremely important, thus costing a higher price point. But it doesn't, it's 1:1 like the others.

Initiative is apparently so important it accounts for a full point of the cost of DEX by itself.

Base Normal Damage, apparently, for such a combat oriented system, doesn't even rate that high.

 

The cost of DEX just looks completely out of step for what it actually provides compared to the rest of the list.

 

Given that PRE can also be used in Combat, and out of turn (An Action That Takes No Time can be performed outside the Initiative Order) and can effectively End Your Phase if successful, that seems far far more powerful than going first. Especially if you're in a group situation where losing your first action (and not just losing it, becoming easier to hit in the process) and you can get ganged up on - that seems pretty powerful. Even as a one-trick pony during combat, and if the full effects of the rules are used, it can have more lasting effects, most of a Turn in many cases. If can also stop groups - preventing you from being ganged up on by an entire group of faster characters - also negating initiative. A good Presence Attack can end combat before it even starts...

 

Allowing EGO to defend against PRE Attacks no only provides a little more equality to the list of provided effects (and makes sense both mechanically and special effects wise in many many cases) that it seems like a really good idea.

 

Presence Attacks works a lot like Mental Powers do already: working against a Characteristic Value instead of your Stun & Body stats. It's practically an everyman Mental Power, in the same way STR provides every Character with a way to do Normal Damage, Presence Attacks provide every character with a way to very briefly effect a Mind Control (more limited effects, easier to get out of, but still: You have to issue a 'command' type of attack that has an effect roll).

 

I would totally allow EGO to defend against a PRE Attack, even make it the default Defense.

 

60 Active Points in Presence can make 60 Active Points of Dexterity completely meaningless for enough time to make the rest of your combat abilities meaningless as well.

 

(this is not an argument to up the cost of Presence, in most games it's just fine; actually my biggest complaint is that in most games if you don't sink 20+ points into Presence your PRE Attack actually suck completely, do damn near nothing, and are a big waste of gaming time; especially in Heroic games were standard max before anything is 4D6, barely cracks a 10 PRE most of the time. No, this is still an argument that DEX is over priced, and adding on that removing the optional rule of allowing EGO to defend against Presence Attacks was an oversight.)

[Tasha]

What I find funny here is at GenCon one year right after that MMORPG came out, they were doing a raffle for swag and asking Hero related quesitons; one question asked:

 

What's the most important/powerful characteristic in Hero?

 

Answer from crowd: DEX

 

Answer from Steve: PRE

 

Making the DEX cost even more baffling...

 

PRE might be powerful, but so is Strength. Presence works on diminishing returns so multiple Pre Attacks will eventually be down to few enough dice that it won't matter.  Pre might be worth more points, but Steve would have encountered stiff opposition to raising the cost on that or any other stat. Notice that all of the stats in 6e are actually cheaper, none went up in cost.

[Tasha]

To veer slightly back onto topic;

 

STR

-Damage

-Lift

 

DEX

-Agility Skills

-Initiative

 

CON

-Stunned Threshold

 

INT

-Intellect Skills

-Perception

 

PRE

-Interaction Skills

-Presence Attack & Defense

 

EGO

-Mental Powers Effect Threshold

 

Everything provides two functions except CON and EGO; if combat were so important to the base aspect of the game, then the ability to resist being Stunned would surely be extremely important, thus costing a higher price point. But it doesn't, it's 1:1 like the others.

Initiative is apparently so important it accounts for a full point of the cost of DEX by itself.

Base Normal Damage, apparently, for such a combat oriented system, doesn't even rate that high.

 

The cost of DEX just looks completely out of step for what it actually provides compared to the rest of the list.

 

Given that PRE can also be used in Combat, and out of turn (An Action That Takes No Time can be performed outside the Initiative Order) and can effectively End Your Phase if successful, that seems far far more powerful than going first. Especially if you're in a group situation where losing your first action (and not just losing it, becoming easier to hit in the process) and you can get ganged up on - that seems pretty powerful. Even as a one-trick pony during combat, and if the full effects of the rules are used, it can have more lasting effects, most of a Turn in many cases. If can also stop groups - preventing you from being ganged up on by an entire group of faster characters - also negating initiative. A good Presence Attack can end combat before it even starts...

 

Allowing EGO to defend against PRE Attacks no only provides a little more equality to the list of provided effects (and makes sense both mechanically and special effects wise in many many cases) that it seems like a really good idea.

 

Presence Attacks works a lot like Mental Powers do already: working against a Characteristic Value instead of your Stun & Body stats. It's practically an everyman Mental Power, in the same way STR provides every Character with a way to do Normal Damage, Presence Attacks provide every character with a way to very briefly effect a Mind Control (more limited effects, easier to get out of, but still: You have to issue a 'command' type of attack that has an effect roll).

 

I would totally allow EGO to defend against a PRE Attack, even make it the default Defense.

 

60 Active Points in Presence can make 60 Active Points of Dexterity completely meaningless for enough time to make the rest of your combat abilities meaningless as well.

 

(this is not an argument to up the cost of Presence, in most games it's just fine; actually my biggest complaint is that in most games if you don't sink 20+ points into Presence your PRE Attack actually suck completely, do damn near nothing, and are a big waste of gaming time; especially in Heroic games were standard max before anything is 4D6, barely cracks a 10 PRE most of the time. No, this is still an argument that DEX is over priced, and adding on that removing the optional rule of allowing EGO to defend against Presence Attacks was an oversight.)

 

You missed that Ego Rolls allow someone to overcome Psych Limits (unless bought to total), and in Heroic Games are the mechanism by which one pushes more than 5 PP of an ability.

[Tasha]

Remember one can build rule bending or min maxing characters, but most of those characters aren't really in the spirit of a good character build.

[ghost-angel]

Pushing is an Optional Rule and a factor of the EGO Roll; Over Coming Psychological Complications is also a use of the EGO Roll, and since all Characteristics produce a Characteristic Roll I ignore that aspect of what they provided; or another way: Everything provides 3 things, except EGO and CON which provide only 2.

[Christopher R Taylor]

And, as mentioned before, lots of other uses for CON besides being stunned.

[ghost-angel]

And every one of them I can think of quickly are all part of a CON Roll, again, all characteristics provide that, a wash. You can find a myriad of uses for every Characteristic Roll.

 

Optional Rules, House Rules, and Creative Use Of The System, the lot of them. The list I provided is RAW only.

 

And all that does is reinforce adding the function of Presence Attack Defense to EGO helps even the playing field, and DEX still isn't worth 2 for 1 over the rest.

[Hugh Neilson]

To veer slightly back onto topic;

 

STR

-Damage

-Lift

A lot depends on what we view as "functions". I could add "restrain", for example.

 

DEX

-Agility Skills

-Initiative

 

CON

-Stunned Threshold

While I agree one could add "CON rolls", they are quite rare in most games, and virtually nonexistent in RAW.

 

INT

-Intellect Skills

-Perception

 

PRE

-Interaction Skills

-Presence Attack & Defense

or three - attack and defense are not merged anywhere else.

 

EGO

-Mental Powers Effect Threshold

With Psych Lim's, force of will, Pushing, etc. I would say there is a form of "Ego Skills".

 

Everything provides two functions except CON and EGO; if combat were so important to the base aspect of the game, then the ability to resist being Stunned would surely be extremely important, thus costing a higher price point. But it doesn't, it's 1:1 like the others.

I will suggest CON has actually become a character tax. You cannot afford not to buy enough STUN that the campaign-standard attack will not STUN you on an average, or even slightly above average roll. Funny...being Stunned is only a little worse than being PRE attacked at the +10 level, PRE does so much more than defend against that effect and yet it costs exactly the same.

 

Initiative is apparently so important it accounts for a full point of the cost of DEX by itself.

Base Normal Damage, apparently, for such a combat oriented system, doesn't even rate that high.

It costs more than a point, if we assume "+1 to a big group of skills" has the same value across the board, as both INT nor PRE cost 1 point and boost a similarly large, if not larger, skill set.

 

The cost of DEX just looks completely out of step for what it actually provides compared to the rest of the list.

And it forces a similar overcost into skill levels for DEX based skills.

 

Given that PRE can also be used in Combat, and out of turn (An Action That Takes No Time can be performed outside the Initiative Order) and can effectively End Your Phase if successful, that seems far far more powerful than going first. Especially if you're in a group situation where losing your first action (and not just losing it, becoming easier to hit in the process) and you can get ganged up on - that seems pretty powerful. Even as a one-trick pony during combat, and if the full effects of the rules are used, it can have more lasting effects, most of a Turn in many cases. If can also stop groups - preventing you from being ganged up on by an entire group of faster characters - also negating initiative. A good Presence Attack can end combat before it even starts...

 

Allowing EGO to defend against PRE Attacks no only provides a little more equality to the list of provided effects (and makes sense both mechanically and special effects wise in many many cases) that it seems like a really good idea.

Agreed

 

Presence Attacks works a lot like Mental Powers do already: working against a Characteristic Value instead of your Stun & Body stats. It's practically an everyman Mental Power, in the same way STR provides every Character with a way to do Normal Damage, Presence Attacks provide every character with a way to very briefly effect a Mind Control (more limited effects, easier to get out of, but still: You have to issue a 'command' type of attack that has an effect roll).

 

I would totally allow EGO to defend against a PRE Attack, even make it the default Defense.

 

60 Active Points in Presence can make 60 Active Points of Dexterity completely meaningless for enough time to make the rest of your combat abilities meaningless as well.

 

(this is not an argument to up the cost of Presence, in most games it's just fine; actually my biggest complaint is that in most games if you don't sink 20+ points into Presence your PRE Attack actually suck completely, do damn near nothing, and are a big waste of gaming time; especially in Heroic games were standard max before anything is 4D6, barely cracks a 10 PRE most of the time. No, this is still an argument that DEX is over priced, and adding on that removing the optional rule of allowing EGO to defend against Presence Attacks was an oversight.)

Actually, the more I look at it, the more I think DEX may be priced appropriately, and INT and PRE may be underpriced. A 4 point skill level suggests that PER is worth only 1 point, as are combined PRE attacks and defenses. DEX is way closer at 6 points. Both work on only one skill per phase where the base stat works on all of them at once (complementary skills; breakfall and acrobatics combined).

 

If they were each 2 points each, we could go with 5 points (-1 limitation) is +1 to all skill rolls based on the stat. Maybe that makes 3 points (or 3.33 points, a -2 limitation) any one skill roll based on the stat. +1 to only one roll at 2 points might then make a modicum of sense.

 

That would mean Enhanced Perception makes some sense. For 5 points (rather than 3), we get +1 to all PER rolls, one sense group becomes 3 points (or a -2 limitation on INT, so 3 1/3) and any one sense becomes +2, just like any one skill. PER basically becomes a fourth skill group.

 

Lightning Reflexes keeps its present table (+1 init is a -1 limitation and so on).

 

PRE attacks become +1d6 for 5 points (a -1 limitation on PRE).

 

EGO takes over PRE defense, and is a -1 limitation to do only that (could be -1/2 if we think other aspects of EGO are less useful, but I don't think I would allow a -2 limitation, which is the reciprocal of a -1/2 limitation, for "only to do what EGO does now").

 

PRE might be powerful, but so is Strength. Presence works on diminishing returns so multiple Pre Attacks will eventually be down to few enough dice that it won't matter.  Pre might be worth more points, but Steve would have encountered stiff opposition to raising the cost on that or any other stat. Notice that all of the stats in 6e are actually cheaper, none went up in cost.

 

 In my opinion, that is only superficially true.

 

STR costs 1:1 and no longer enhanced PD, REC or STUN.  It's the same price, but it does far less.  CON, similarly, lost more than half its value in losing figured characteristics.  DEX really only cost 2 points in 5e (1 of its 3 points was rebated on SPD - no one EVER rounded their SPD down in my experience - or you could just apply that -1/2 "no figured" limitation to the only stat it actually made sense on).  It provided OCV and DCV now worth almost double the price of 6e DEX alone.  BOD stayed the same - you previously got a 1 point STUN rebate on every +1 BOD.  EGO lost MCVs

 

At 6e prices, retaining 5e figureds:

 

+10 STR (10 points) would add +2 PD (2 point), +2 REC (2 point) and +5 STUN (2.5 points) and +4 meters leaping (2 points) so 18.5 points of value.  The price of STR didn't quite double, but it rose about 85%.

 

+10 CON previously cost 20 points.  Now it would cost +10 CON (10 points), +2 ED (2 points), +2 REC (2 points), +5 STUN (2.5 points) and +20 END (4 points), so 20.5 points.  Its price increased only marginally (only 2.5%).

 

+10 BOD previously cost 20 points.  Now it costs +10 BOD (10 points) and +10 STUN (5 points) = 15, so it did actually become a bit cheaper.  It was also recognized as being one of those historically overpriced secondary stats.

 

+9 DEX previously cost 18 points, net of SPD rebate (and the price of SPD did not change).  Now, it still costs 18 for DEX rolls and initiative, +15 for +3 OCV, +15 for +3 DCV, so 48 points (2 2/3 times its former cost, highlighting the huge bargain DEX was in all prior editions).

 

+9 EGO cost 18 points before.  Now it costs 9 for EGO, + 9 for mOCV, +9 for mDCV = 27, a 50% price hike.

 

INT and PRE are the odd ones out in NOT being more expensive to retain the full package they provided in 6e. 

 

I started out when 6e priced DEX at 2 points with "WTF?  It's not worth 2 points by comparison with INT, EGO and PRE", but the math has long since persuaded me that the real answer is "WTF?  INT and PRE are bargain priced compared to EGO and DEX and skill levels and enhanced PER etc."

[ghost-angel]

2 Points for DEX to me only makes sense if all the Characteristics cost 2 Points.

 

STR really should also cost 2 per +1; 5 Points per Damage Class + Lift Capacity (effectively free in this model); and only doesn't so Bricks can fold STR + Damage into one Power to 'compete' with Blasters who get Range + Damage (nevermind that HtH get 10AP of that for free and Ranged don't...)

 

There's a whole host of issues brought up from the history of how the system evolved you can only go so far to fix without a scorched earth policy.

 

I don't think it matters if the Characteristics are priced at 2 Points or 1 Point per +1; but I really think they all need to be the same across the board. You can make arguments for either direction, but each Characteristic is, or should be, weighted the same by the system.

[Christopher R Taylor]

And all that does is reinforce adding the function of Presence Attack Defense to EGO helps even the playing field,

I agree, and it makes logical sense.

 

and DEX still isn't worth 2 for 1 over the rest.

There's a concept called "weighting" which understands that some abilities or results are of greater value than others.  If this  product wins 2 awards no one has ever heard of, and that product wins a nobel prize, then the one is worth significantly more than the two.

What DEX does is more game-significant than what, for example, what Intelligence does.

[ghost-angel]

 

What DEX does is more game-significant than what, for example, what Intelligence does.

 

And this is the point upon which I disagree, and never has anyone ever provided an argument that has caused me to think differently.

 

If it does more in your game that's specifically because you let it do more in your game style. There is no Generic, Out Of Game Context Reason it should cost more. There is no system level reason for that increase, there is simply no written down 'it does more' things in the book than several other Characteristics. It doesn't "Do more" than INT, STR, PRE, or even possibly EGO. You just use it more in your game play. And that means nothing to someone who uses it less.

 

You can play entire campaigns where DEX is meaningless if you wanted. And that's the crux of the problem: Meaning in a generic system is campaign dependent which leaves costing down to not "how game-sginificant is it" but "what base elements does it provide compared to other things?" ; and DEX provides no more things than INT does.

[Christopher R Taylor]

And this is the point upon which I disagree, and never has anyone ever provided an argument that has caused me to think differently.

This is true, you remain unconvinced by all the examples and information people provide.  The game's designers and most players here disagree with you.

[Vondy]

So, if I understand it, one has the option of allowing EGO to resist PRE attacks where appropriate?

 

Good. I'm glad we settled that.

[ghost-angel]

This is true, you remain unconvinced by all the examples and information people provide.  The game's designers and most players here disagree with you.

none of the same reasons - which is pathetic at best.

 

Even the game designer himself said PRE was more powerful than DEX; and also said DEX is 2 points specifically because of Initiative, not anything else mentioned.

 

Which tells me it's just a bunch of back peddling retro-active reasoning. Hugh is the only one I've seen provide an actual discussion point on it, and his conclusion was that INT was underpriced, since it did as much as DEX and was equally important.

 

So, once again I regret taking your posts out of my block list. I really really need to remember never to do that again.

[Hugh Neilson]

2 Points for DEX to me only makes sense if all the Characteristics cost 2 Points.

 

STR really should also cost 2 per +1; 5 Points per Damage Class + Lift Capacity (effectively free in this model); and only doesn't so Bricks can fold STR + Damage into one Power to 'compete' with Blasters who get Range + Damage (nevermind that HtH get 10AP of that for free and Ranged don't...)

 

There's a whole host of issues brought up from the history of how the system evolved you can only go so far to fix without a scorched earth policy.

 

I don't think it matters if the Characteristics are priced at 2 Points or 1 Point per +1; but I really think they all need to be the same across the board. You can make arguments for either direction, but each Characteristic is, or should be, weighted the same by the system.

 

As noted above, I think DEX, INT and PRE are the easiest to compare. 

 

CON is a character tax - you must have enough CON to weather campaign-average hits without being Stunned (or, if that is NOT a campaign standard, then DEX truly does become a must-have, as first attack = win - but then enough PRE to cause hesitation also wins the battle!

 

I think EGO has less functionality, so 1 point is OK.  I don't want a reason for even more weak-willed "heroes".

 

STR is its own animal altogether, and the toughest of the bunch to work through.  STR comes with Lift, Grab, etc. and the freebie add to HKA.  At the same time, it does not permit me to Spread to hit more targets, or enhance my OCV, nor does it have Range.  I think the system is too generous around use of objects of opportunity, which can massively enhance the effectiveness of STR.  "OK, you can Grab the car and immediately use it to swipe across a 2 hex by 3 hex arc, automatically hitting everyone there for full STR damage as long as you do not roll an 18".

 

Really?  Last I looked, Grab was an attack action ending your phase, nonproficiency penalties applied to all weapons not purchased with points, absent WF (WF: Cadillac??) and unbalanced objects imposed penalties.  Looking to the source material, when the Hulk lobs a bus at Spiderman, Spidey neatly dives through a window on one side and out the other side - he does not wind up the Amazing Spider-Splatter.  Maybe the rule should be that an object of a certain size, used by a character of sufficient STR, can be used as an improvised weapon to add some damage (more added the less extra STR you have - Grond using a roll of quarters in his fist isn't adding much, and allow you to use Spreading with STR (so that bus could permit you to do an extra 2d6 damage (with fists that can level structures, the bus doesn't add a lot) and Spread up to 6 DC of STR to either hit multiple hexes of the Bus or add OCV.

 

However, I also think that the various hand attack adders need to be discounted more than they are from STR, and their efficiency suggests STR is underpriced.  "Only for one martial art style's damage" seems like more than a -1/4 limitation to STR, and "only for direct HTH damage" seems like more than a -1/2.  Probably, STR should have a fractional cost like +2 STR costs 3 points, but that carries other issues.  Anyway, I compare STR to other attacks, not other Characteristics (just like I compare PD/ED to other defenses.

 

There's a concept called "weighting" which understands that some abilities or results are of greater value than others.  If this  product wins 2 awards no one has ever heard of, and that product wins a nobel prize, then the one is worth significantly more than the two.

What DEX does is more game-significant than what, for example, what Intelligence does.

 

"Weighting" is what we are applying.  We do not agree that DEX is more game-significant than INT.  If I can get a surprise attack off before combat starts, your DEX will not help you one bit, and PER is what assists you in avoiding that surprise attack before combat.  No way is +1 to any single INT skill worth only one point less than +1 to each and every INT skill, all at once, as well as every PER roll, all at the same time.  That is also "a concept called weighting".

 

This is true, you remain unconvinced by all the examples and information people provide.  The game's designers and most players here disagree with you.

 

GA as already noted that the game's designer's comments have been inconsistent.  I am not sure how you conclude "most players here" disagree.  Going back over the thread:

 

Tasha notes early on that PRE is worth 1 point for PRE attacks alone.  I agree.  The rest of what is does is worth another point.  At least, especially if we include defense from PRE attacks.  She also weighs in later to suggest, as I read her comment, that many characteristics may be underpriced, but that Steve did not want the firefight raising those costs would have attracted.

 

bigdamnhero notes he agrees DEX is slightly overpriced in 6e and suggests it may be holdover from prior editions that the designer was uncomfortable letting go.  He also perceives the pricing to indicate a combat bias (but that begs the question why DEX costs more that STR!)

 

Various posters note that (as Manic Typist summarizes), DEX is only as important as you make it.

 

I think Lucius perceives DEX being more valuable.  Clearly you do. GA and I disagree.

 

I do not think 2 people on either side, and several more not coming down on either side, in any way supports the conclusion that “most players here” disagree with anyone.

[Tasha]

And this is the point upon which I disagree, and never has anyone ever provided an argument that has caused me to think differently.

 

If it does more in your game that's specifically because you let it do more in your game style. There is no Generic, Out Of Game Context Reason it should cost more. There is no system level reason for that increase, there is simply no written down 'it does more' things in the book than several other Characteristics. It doesn't "Do more" than INT, STR, PRE, or even possibly EGO. You just use it more in your game play. And that means nothing to someone who uses it less.

 

You can play entire campaigns where DEX is meaningless if you wanted. And that's the crux of the problem: Meaning in a generic system is campaign dependent which leaves costing down to not "how game-sginificant is it" but "what base elements does it provide compared to other things?" ; and DEX provides no more things than INT does.

 

Yes, you can play Hero System games where no combat takes place. In those games a GM MIGHT want to say that Dex is cheaper than RAW.

 

I Believe that Steve saw that the average Hero System game had a lot of combat at least every session. With the outcome of such combats having huge bearings on the story. This bias toward combat is even more pronounced if you look at the system as being used for Supers more than anything else. In a supers game you have characters that have cool powers that tend to be based around combat. Combat being important is the reason Dex and also 6e Combat Skill Levels are priced they way they are.

[Vondy]

What if I agree, but consider it too trivial to bother changing?

[bigdamnhero]

EGO

-Mental Powers Effect Threshold

- Pushing (optional yes, but pretty commonly used)

- Determining initiative for Mental Combat

- Breakout Rolls (yes it's "just" another EGO Roll, but comes up so often I think it's worth a separate entry)

[Steve]

For the STR cost issue, maybe lifting capacity could be done as an adder to STR? Buying STR just gets you combat damage, and then you could buy an adder for lifting capacity increases, maybe like +1 or +2 points per doubling of lift capacity.

[ghost-angel]

- Pushing (optional yes, but pretty commonly used)

- Determining initiative for Mental Combat

- Breakout Rolls (yes it's "just" another EGO Roll, but comes up so often I think it's worth a separate entry)

 

Aside from Metnal Initiative - these are all functions of the Characteristic Roll. And no, they really don't get to be listed separately. While the EGO Roll may have more uses listed in the book (and that I'm not even sure of to be honest), you can come up with literally dozens of uses for every Characteristic Roll.

 

Again; all Characteristics provide a Roll, and all of them have a myriad of uses possible. Listing every single use of a Characteristic Roll is not listing a whole bunch of separate uses of the Characteristic...

 

And Pushing is an Optional Rule, you can't really cost things based on a series of Optional Rules, you'd go nuts when balancing a series of mutually exclusive optional rules; Breakout Roles only occur in games with Mental Powers, commonality varies by group, and is just a way to make a Characteristic Roll useful.

[ghost-angel]

For the STR cost issue, maybe lifting capacity could be done as an adder to STR? Buying STR just gets you combat damage, and then you could buy an adder for lifting capacity increases, maybe like +1 or +2 points per doubling of lift capacity.

 

I like the idea, but I'm not sure breaking down the already long list of Characteristics is a viable solution. But it does solve the problem...