Most Effective Way To Add Advantages

[g3taso]

I'm looking to add the Armor Piercing and Autofire advantages to a 4d6 HKA, What is the most cost effective way to do so, all together as an HKA? Deadly Blow and naked AP/AF advantages?  BTW I am using 5e rules.

 

I'm setting the issue of disadds aside at the moment, although I am planning on using the following

OIF -1/2, From Behind Or Against Surprised Targets -1/2 

[Scott Anderson]

Sounds like overkill, but let's go ahead and do it.

 

HKA 4d6, Armor Piercing (+1/2), Autofire-5 (+1/2).  Active points: 120

OIF (-1/2), Only vs Surprised Targets (-1/2).  Real points: 60.

 

I would give Only vs Surprised Targets a (-1), which results in a Real Cost of 48.

 

But again, hitting something with 4d6 AP 2-5 times in a row seems like overkill.

[Tasha]

I would go with Autofire 3 as it's pretty rare to hit with more than 3 autofire shots. You should have a way to zero the End cost on that Autofire attack. As the End costs are per shot fired and will get really big. Charges are a great way to deal with that issue 

I would try to get that down to under 75 pts before Limitations. A 4d6 RKA is pretty powerful esp with Armor Piercing and Autofire.

[ghost-angel]

Are you trying to add them onto an existing attack; like if you have them surprised your attack becomes AP/Autofire instead of just a normal Attack?

[g3taso]

The original idea was to take a dagger, and use this Deadly Blow variant to add base damage to the weapon. I wanted Armor Piercing so damage I scored went through better, and was thinking AutoFire could reflect more technical precision in the strike resulting in greater damage as compared to necessarily reflecting a flurry of strikes.  So far I'm looking at something like this, based on everyone's feedback.

 

Killing Expertise: KA - HtH 1d6, Autofire (3 shots; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1) (41 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Limited Power Daggers Only (-1/2), Limited Power With Blows Struck From Behind Or Against Surprised Targets (-1/2),                          (14 real points)

 

Coupled with a 1d6 HKA AP trenchknife, this should score nicely as 4d6 base damage sneak attacks with daggers with no END cost.

 

So whaddya think?

[DasBroot]

Sounds like overkill, but let's go ahead and do it.

 

HKA 4d6, Armor Piercing (+1/2), Autofire-5 (+1/2).  Active points: 120

OIF (-1/2), Only vs Surprised Targets (-1/2).  Real points: 60.

 

I would give Only vs Surprised Targets a (-1), which results in a Real Cost of 48.

 

But again, hitting something with 4d6 AP 2-5 times in a row seems like overkill.

 

It's only overkill if the GM is a little bonkers.  Here's a defense worth half that AP value that renders it useless:

 

No Sell:  +34 PD, Hardened (+1/4), Resistant (+1/2) (60 Active Points) (Modifiers affect Base Characteristic).

 

Even knocking that PD down to 30 (not an unreasonable PD even in a standard 12 DC game let alone a 24 DC one - hell, Ironclad has it) will take a bite out of crime.

 

Unless you're playing in a game where the defensive AP limit is less than *half* the offensive AP limit (ouch?) you'd just be better off with a straight +24d6 hand attack (which would flat out ruin that 36 PD character's day in a big way). No muss, no fuss, adds to your strength directly without any DC adjusting shenanigans. 

 

Fun for killing regular powered zombies and such, though.

[g3taso]

Well, let's see what you might suggest. Let's say we are looking at a 4d6 (or 12d6N) attack as a base, but if ya want to go higher please do so. What do you suggest as an attack that will bypass their defenses and direcly put the hurtin' on someone?

[DasBroot]

More dice. Always more dice.

 

Take those 41 AP and buy three more levels of deadly blow and use multi-attack for a -2 to hit instead of wasting points on autofire.

[eepjr24]

More dice is generally the best bet. Or a drain of the defense linked with more dice. Double knockback can work out well too, depending on circumstances. Personally, if this is supers I usually just end up with an MP of different scenario attacks. Because there are always odd cases like desolidification, perception obscuring, DCV off the charts, etc that need handling if you want to be effective in the great majority of cases.

 

- E

[g3taso]

Take those 41 AP and buy three more levels of deadly blow and use multi-attack for a -2 to hit instead of wasting points on autofire.

Deadly Expertise:  KA - HtH 5d6 (5d6+1 w/STR), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (150 Active Points); Limited Power With Blows Struck From Behind Or Against Surprised Targets (-1), Daggers Only (-1/2)   

 

?

[DasBroot]

For 150 glorious AP? Meh.  15 body 30 stun (AP) is chump change.

 

No ... now it is time for "Fist of the *What* Star?!":  Hand-To-Hand Attack +30d6 (32d6 w/str) (150 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) (since you appear to be using 5th)

 

Your 150 AP attack average damage against the Champion - Ironclad (25 PD/23 rPD, 60 stun, 30 con) - on average:

 

15 - 11 = 4 body, 30 - 12 = 18 stun.  Oof, goes Ironclad - 3 more of those and he's out.  Time to fight back! (If he had hardened armor instead it would be 0 and 7)

 

The pure dice approach:

 

32 - 25 = 7 body, 96 - 25 = 71 stun.  One Punch Man wins. Ironclad could have triple hardened double impenetrable armor for all One Punch Man cares - he's out.

 

Keep your fancy modifiers. I'll always choose to just hit them... with a rock.

[g3taso]

I like that! Pointing out flaws is a big part of checking this out, and your example of a brick was a good one.

 

54 Assassin Training: Multipower, 90-point reserve, all slots Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (135 Active Points); all slots With Blows Struck From Behind Or Against Surprised Targets (-1), OIF (; -1/2)   4u

1) Deadly Expertise: KA - HtH 4d6 (4d6+1 w/STR), Armor Piercing (+1/2) (90 Active Points); Daggers Only (-1/2), OIF (; -1/2)

 

2) HtH Attack +18d6 (standard effect: 54 STUN, 18 BODY) (90 Active Points); With Blows Struck From Behind Or Against Surprised Targets (-1), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), OIF (; -1/2)

0 body and 63-23=40pts stun

 

 

really knocks down someone quickly   Good to remember that heavily defended opponents can be swatted, with the right stick.

[Surrealone]

For 150 glorious AP? Meh.  15 body 30 stun (AP) is chump change.

 

No ... now it is time for "Fist of the *What* Star?!":  Hand-To-Hand Attack +30d6 (32d6 w/str) (150 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) (since you appear to be using 5th)

 

Your 150 AP attack average damage against the Champion - Ironclad (25 PD/23 rPD, 60 stun, 30 con) - on average:

 

15 - 11 = 4 body, 30 - 12 = 18 stun.  Oof, goes Ironclad - 3 more of those and he's out.  Time to fight back! (If he had hardened armor instead it would be 0 and 7)

 

The pure dice approach:

 

32 - 25 = 7 body, 96 - 25 = 71 stun.  One Punch Man wins. Ironclad could have triple hardened double impenetrable armor for all One Punch Man cares - he's out.

 

Keep your fancy modifiers. I'll always choose to just hit them... with a rock.

 

And then there's the high-precision, low-dice, STUN multiplier approach:

* 1d6 HKA w/ +35 STUN Multiplier (+8 3/4) [146 Active]

 

On average this will (without 15 STR behind it to double it to 2d6 HKA) produce 3 BODY and 111 STUN.  Against Ironclad this results in 0 body and 111-25= 86 STUN.  Stun Multiplier Man wins, using less dice -- and pushes Ironclad to a deeper stun level (-26 ... i.e. into the -21 to -30 range) than One Punch Man did (only -11), resulting in Ironclad getting to take a recovery once/min (instead of post-seg-12-only, per when One Punch Man hit him).

 

If you lay a measly 15 STR behind this 1d6 HKA to double it up to a 2d6 HKA, you get an average of 6 body and a whopping 222 STUN.  Against Ironclad this results in: 0 body and 222-25=197 STUN.  Not only does Stun Multiplier Man win, but Ironclad is now at GM's discretion/option in terms of when he gets to take recoveries. And there's a nice, low END cost to double 1d6HKA into 2d6 HKA, too.

 

Keep your fancy rock, I'll always choose application of very precisely applied pressure in a key location that causes immense physical pain without much of that (terribly unheroic) BODY damage.

[DasBroot]

True, but One Punch Man isn't thwarted by a 10 PD door or automatons that take no stun (and the OP has mentioned zombies before).  Not that this is any consolation  to poor unconscious Ironclad.

 

(Also, I hate, hate, hate increased stun multiplier.  It's a flat out banned advantage in my games: It changes a core game balancing mechanic and does so in such a way that, as noted, you end up inflicting less body damage on a killing attack than a 'non' killing attack. That's like making an advantage for non killing attacks that increase the body results on their damage rolls.)

[Lucius]

That's like making an advantage for non killing attacks that increase the body results on their damage rolls.)

Hm, there's an idea.....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is mulling it over

[g3taso]

Hm, there's an idea.....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is mulling it over

Mull away Lucius, you got all sorts of cool ideas

[Surrealone]

True, but One Punch Man isn't thwarted by a 10 PD door or automatons that take no stun (and the OP has mentioned zombies before).  Not that this is any consolation  to poor unconscious Ironclad.

 

(Also, I hate, hate, hate increased stun multiplier.  It's a flat out banned advantage in my games: It changes a core game balancing mechanic and does so in such a way that, as noted, you end up inflicting less body damage on a killing attack than a 'non' killing attack. That's like making an advantage for non killing attacks that increase the body results on their damage rolls.)

Neither is Increased Stun Multiplier Man when it comes to doors, as he saved 4 points (by only spending 146) and used 3 of them on lockpicking.  Being a finesse character rather than a brute force character, Increased Stun Multiplier Man would likely deal with automatons using an approach other than bashing ... which is apparently all that One Punch Man does.

 

While you may not like increased stun multiplier, it has its place in helping a killing attack represent a very targeted attack that does BODY damage ... with lots of pain attached to it.  Without using some kind of GM fiat/custom limitation, try producing a normal (non-killing) attack that does a pile of stun without doing much body and you'll find you can't, as Hero System mechanics basically don't have anything stock for this.  That's what increased stun multiplier on a low-diceage killing attack is for...

[Hyper-Man]

True, but One Punch Man isn't thwarted by a 10 PD door or automatons that take no stun (and the OP has mentioned zombies before).  Not that this is any consolation  to poor unconscious Ironclad.

 

(Also, I hate, hate, hate increased stun multiplier.  It's a flat out banned advantage in my games: It changes a core game balancing mechanic and does so in such a way that, as noted, you end up inflicting less body damage on a killing attack than a 'non' killing attack. That's like making an advantage for non killing attacks that increase the body results on their damage rolls.)

 

re: Increased Stun Modifier

 

It's used on several published weapon builds.

 

Here are a few 6e specific adaptions I did for this character:

 

[30]    Coharie Arms CA-415 (.223/5.56):    (Total: 125 Active Cost, 35 Real Cost) RKA 2d6, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2) (67 Active Points); OAF (Coharie Arms CA-415 assault rifle; -1), STR Minimum 12 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; Autofire imposes an additional +5 STR Minimum.  This can be offset by using the Brace Maneuver; -1), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Beam (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), 4 clips of 30 Charges (.223/5.56 bullets; +1/2) (Real Cost: 17) plus +1 OCV with Coharie Arms CA-415 (2 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) plus +2 to offset Range modifiers with Coharie Arms CA-415 (2 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) plus +2  PER with Sight Group (4 Active Points); Limited Power  Only vs. Darkness Penalties (-1), OAF (EOTech 553 holographic sight; -1), Limited Power Only When Shooter Braces And/Or Sets (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4*) (Real Cost: 1) plus +2 OCV with Coharie Arms CA-415 (4 Active Points); OAF (EOTech 553 holographic sight; -1), Limited Power Only When Shooter Braces And/Or Sets (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) plus +10 to offset Range modifiers with Coharie Arms CA-415 (10 Active Points); OAF (EOTech 553 holographic sight; -1), Limited Power Only When Shooter Braces And/Or Sets (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) plus Telekinesis (4 STR), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (9 Active Points); Limited Power Only To Hold Onto/Recover Coharie Arms CA-415 (-2), OAF (Lanyard; -1), No Range (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2) plus +2 to offset Recoil modifiers with Coharie Arms CA-415 (2 Active Points); OAF (Flash Suppressing Compensator - Type 2 Recoil Compensator; -1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (+2 Hearing PER modifiers; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) plus Invisible Power Effects (Invisible to Normal Sight; +1/4) for up to 67 Active Points of Coharie Arms CA-415, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (25 Active Points); OAF (Flash Suppressing Compensator; -1), Limited Power  Only vs. Muzzle Flash (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4*) (Real Cost: 8)        

An American clone of the Heckler & Koch HK416 which was inspired by the M4 Carbine.

http://www.imfdb.org...WickCA415-3.jpg

 

[14]    Kel-Tec KSG (12 Gauge):    (Total: 78 Active Cost, 18 Real Cost) RKA 2 1/2d6, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Area Of Effect (1m Radius; 20m Minimum Effective Range (12 Gauge Standard Shot); +1/4) (60 Active Points); OAF (Kel-Tec KSG 12 gauge shotgun; -1), STR Minimum 13 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Required Hands Two-Handed (Pump Action; -1/2), 2 clips of 14 Charges (Increased Reloading Time: 1 Turn; Two 7 shot tube magazines; -1/4), Reduced By Range (-1/4), Reduced Penetration (-1/4), Limited Range (40m; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 13) plus +2 OCV with Kel-Tec KSG (4 Active Points); OAF (EOTech 553 holographic sight; -1), Limited Power Only When Shooter Braces And/Or Sets (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) plus +10 to offset Range modifier with Kel-Tec KSG (10 Active Points); OAF (EOTech 553 holographic sight; -1), Limited Power Only When Shooter Braces And/Or Sets (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) plus +2  PER with Sight Group (4 Active Points); Limited Power  Only vs. Darkness Penalties (-1), OAF (EOTech 553 holographic sight; -1), Limited Power Only When Shooter Braces And/Or Sets (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4*) (Real Cost: 1)

(Obtained from target)

https://pbs.twimg.co...7R4CAAEk8Sh.jpg

 

[5]    DTA Stealth Recon Scout (338 LM):    (Total: 141 Active Cost, 39 Real Cost) RKA 3d6-1, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Increased Maximum Range (1,600m; +1/2) (70 Active Points); OAF (SRS-338 LM sniper rifle; -1), STR Minimum 13 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Required Hands Two-Handed (Bolt Action; -1/2), Beam (-1/4), 4 clips of 5 Charges (.338 Lapua Magnum round; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 16) plus +1 OCV with SRS-338 LM (2 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) plus +3 to offset Range modifiers with SRS-338 LM (3 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) plus +1  PER with Sight Group (2 Active Points); Limited Power  Only vs. Darkness Penalties (-1), OAF ( x10 Telescopic Sight; -1), Limited Power Only When Shooter Braces And/Or Sets (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4*) (Real Cost: 1) plus +14 versus Range Modifier for Sight Group (21 Active Points); OAF (x10 Telescopic Sight; -1), Limited Power Only When Shooter Braces And/Or Sets (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4*) (Real Cost: 6) plus +14 to offset Range modifier with SRS-338 LM (14 Active Points); Limited Power Only When Shooter Braces And/Or Sets (-1), OAF (x10 Telescopic Sight; -1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) plus Invisible Power Effects (Invisible to Normal Sight; +1/4) for up to 70 Active Points of SRS-338 LM, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (25 Active Points); OAF (Flash Suppressor; -1), Limited Power  Only vs. Muzzle Flash (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4*) (Real Cost: 8) plus +1 OCV with SRS-338 LM (2 Active Points); OAF (Folding Bipod; -1), Limited Power Only When Shooter Sets With Bipod (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) plus +2 to offset Range modifier with SRS-338 LM (2 Active Points); Limited Power Only When Shooter Braces With Bipod (-1), OAF (Folding Bipod; -1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1)

(Obtained from target)

When used with the Set & Brace maneuvers the combined total bonuses = +3 OCV and +21 vs. Range.  The default Range Modifier @ 2000m = -16.  The weapon's maximum range = 1600m.  The rules for this range do not take into account other extreme ballistic factors like air friction, weather, gravity and spin of the Earth.

http://www.imfdb.org...px-DTA_SRSB.jpg

http://www.imfdb.org...hnWickDTA-3.jpg

 

 

HM

[assault]

re: Increased Stun Modifier

 

It's used on several published weapon builds.

 

 

True, but not to the point of madness.

 

+1, +2, (+3?) on Real Weapon builds is a whole lot different from +35 cheeseburger attacks.

 

Of course the real issue is the 150 AP attacks. It's not surprising Ironclad loses.

[Surrealone]

True, but not to the point of madness.

 

+1, +2, (+3?) on Real Weapon builds is a whole lot different from +35 cheeseburger attacks.

 

Of course the real issue is the 150 AP attacks. It's not surprising Ironclad loses.

IMHO, 150 AP of anything is cheesy -- regardless of how it's built.  Thus, I saw the entire thread/premise as absurd.