Area Of Affect Attack (Accurate)

[g3taso]

I'm thinking of putting an Area Of Affect advantage on a HtH attack, to supplement the Autofire (3) advantage already there:

 

Naked Advantage: Area Of Effect Accurate (up to One Hex; +1/2) for up to 45 Active Points (22 Active Points); OIF (; -1/2), From Behind Or By Surprise (-1/2)

 

Am I correct that these two advantages together mean that (with surprise, and an appropriate weapon) that the character would be able to attack via Autofire a single target in a hex (whether he is alone or with friends) and couple that DCV3 and Autofire for devastating sneak attacks? If it matters we are 5e, but 6e works also.

[Surrealone]

Am I correct that these two advantages together mean that (with surprise, and an appropriate weapon) that the character would be able to attack via Autofire a single target in a hex (whether he is alone or with friends) and couple that DCV3 and Autofire for devastating sneak attacks? If it matters we are 5e, but 6e works also.

Yes, this is correct.  Keep in mind that the SFX still involves an attack that affects an area  -- so knifing someone in the back would not make much sense but filling half a hex with a blade attack might.

 

Honestly, though, I don't know why you'd use 'Accurate' AoE in 5er unless you're really driving for a single-target AoE.  After all, individuals rarely occupy the same hex in 5er fights (since a man is defined as 1" in size, usually). You're actually imposing a penalty on yourself by making the AoE 'Accurate' instead of using straight AoE: 1 hex.  Why/How? Since you're supplementing a HTH attack -- by definition your target must be in the same or an adjacent hex (since the HTH attack is not ranged) ... so I'd think you'd want your foe to be DCV 0 (per 5er RAW page 375) and only able to dive for cover to avoid an AoE against 1 hex ... rather than DCV 3 (per 5er RAW page 248) and able to dodge/martial dodge in addition to diving for cover against an 'Accurate' AoE against 1 hex.

 

​i.e. In this case an AoE against 1 hex actually serves you better than an 'Accurate' AoE against 1 hex ... in terms of reduction of the target's DCV ... so long as you don't need single-target functionality from it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Since putting Area of Effect makes the attack roll into a "non-standard" one, the autofire advantage increases by +1 (or more, based on GM discretion):

 

If an attack doesn’t require a normal Attack Roll or isn’t applied against normal defenses, Autofire costs an additional +1 Advantage. This includes, but is not limited to, Mental Blast, Drain, Transform, most attacks that affect an area (either inherently, or because they have the Area Of Effect Advantage), AVADs, and the like. Similarly, if the GM believes a Power with Autofire would be extremely useful or likely to unbalance the game at its normal cost, he may increase the cost by +1 (or more).

 

If a character buys a power with several of the Advantages that add the +1 “surcharge” to Autofire, he only has to pay the surcharge once (not once per Advantage).

 

[g3taso]

These are good points, and to be honest the Accurate limitation was more designed as a means to effect a cinematic-style attack from surprise bypassing many defenses. But yours makes way more sense.

[Ninja-Bear]

Yes, this is correct. Keep in mind that the SFX still involves an attack that affects an area -- so knifing someone in the back would not make much sense but filling half a hex with a blade attack might.

 

 

No you are wrong. Special effect wise he is correct that he is attacking one opponent. Area effect is the mechanizism in which to achieve the DCV of 3.

[Surrealone]

No you are wrong. Special effect wise he is correct that he is attacking one opponent. Area effect is the mechanizism in which to achieve the DCV of 3.

Yea I'll disagree with that because 5er RAW very clearly states (pg 247) as the first line of the AREA OF EFFECT Advantage: "Powers with Area Of Effect affect all targets in an area".  On page 248 the 'Accurate' version goes on to state "For a -0 Limitation, Accurate, a character can define an Area of Effect (One Hex) as automatically targeting only a single person, regardless of how many are in the hex.  This makes the Power work against DCV 3 without having to affect possible large numbers of persons."

 

​i.e. It's still an Area of Effect attack ... and still affects an area -- but only one person within that area instead of all targets within it. 

 

There are other ways to achieve a DCV of 3 without affecting an area to do it if that's what one wants to simulate.  Use of AoE entails affecting an area to do it...

[Doc Democracy]

I am with ninja-bear here. The game mechanic is attacking an area that contains a particular target. SFX in HERO are entirely separate from mechanics, defined by players, and so there is no need for the SFX to reflect that area effect mechanic. Ultimately the player wants an attack that accurately attacks a single person, this achieves that.

 

What other mechanic will achieve a DCV of 3 on every target regardless of DCV because I don't have one off the top of my head.

 

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

Yea I'll disagree with that because 5er RAW very clearly states (pg 247) as the first line of the AREA OF EFFECT Advantage: "Powers with Area Of Effect affect all targets in an area". On page 248 the 'Accurate' version goes on to state "For a -0 Limitation, Accurate, a character can define an Area of Effect (One Hex) as automatically targeting only a single person, regardless of how many are in the hex. This makes the Power work against DCV 3 without having to affect possible large numbers of persons."

 

​i.e. It's still an Area of Effect attack ... and still affects an area -- but only one person within that area instead of all targets within it.

 

There are other ways to achieve a DCV of 3 without affecting an area to do it if that's what one wants to simulate. Use of AoE entails affecting an area to do it...

You state the accurate rules and still do mot comprehend. Accurate is an AoE only that you receive the DCV 3 vs a single target. And if it still acted as a regular AoE, then why does a targat of accurate get Dodge and not use Dive for Cover as a regular AoE? Because as you stated, you are only attacking a SINGLE target regardsless of how many others are in that target.

[eepjr24]

You state the accurate rules and still do mot comprehend. Accurate is an AoE only that you receive the DCV 3 vs a single target. And if it still acted as a regular AoE, then why does a targat of accurate get Dodge and not use Dive for Cover as a regular AoE? Because as you stated, you are only attacking a SINGLE target regardsless of how many others are in that target.

You state your opinion clearly, but are not correct on the rules. I use 6e, so here you go:

 

Accurate: For an additional +¼ Advantage, Accurate, a character can define an Area Of Effect (Radius) as automatically targeting only a single person

It goes on to state that you can use Dive for Cover to avoid it. That is true in 5e as well. The two versions do differ in that 5e allows you to dodge accurate attacks, 6e does not.

 

- E

[Doc Democracy]

You can dive for cover from normal attacks if you want - there was a ruling from Steve to that effect.

 

Dive for cover is not just for area effect attacks.  :-)

[Hugh Neilson]

The simple fact is that AoE Accurate affects only one target in the entire area (note that, in 6e, that could be a Megascaled area the size of a planet. The Omega Beam seeks out the one target in that whole area that I have decided to attack, and rolls to hit DCV 3 in order to connect with him. The Omega Beam deftly bends and twists to avoid striking anything else in the area as it seeks out its one target in that whole area.

 

Thinking on it, I can make that planet-size AoE No Range - it doesn't matter whether I center it on my location or a location 30 meters distant when it can hit any one person on the same planet. Of course, I need some pretty spectacular enhanced senses to make full use of my planetary AoE - Accurate attack.

 

Dive for Cover allows you to avoid any attack by diving out of its range or area of coverage, so it does not matter whether the attack is AoE in that regard.

[Surrealone]

The game mechanic is attacking an area that contains a particular target. SFX in HERO are entirely separate from mechanics, defined by players, and so there is no need for the SFX to reflect that area effect mechanic. Ultimately the player wants an attack that accurately attacks a single person, this achieves that.

 

What other mechanic will achieve a DCV of 3 on every target regardless of DCV because I don't have one off the top of my head.

Unless IPE is in play, I believe SFX for an AoE attack should be visible across the area affected by the attack, not just the target that's hit by it if it happens to be accurate -- otherwise there's no way to tell if a power is AoE (short of discriminatory/analytical senses) and, thus, no way to tell after having seen it ... if dive for cover, missile deflection/reflection, etc. are something one should consider.

 

Skill levels linked to the power can achieve a DCV of 3 (or better) for single-target attacks.  (Note that I did not state that other mechanics would do so regardless of DCV -- moreover, that qualifier, which you added, doesn't even apply to Accurate AoE attacks since they can be dodged in 5er ... and the OP specifically stated this was for 5e -- i.e. DCV still plays a role in this instance due to dodge/martial dodge being applicable.)

 

Accurate is an AoE only that you receive the DCV 3 vs a single target. And if it still acted as a regular AoE, then why does a targat of accurate get Dodge and not use Dive for Cover as a regular AoE? Because as you stated, you are only attacking a SINGLE target regardsless of how many others are in that target.

Yes, it IS an AoE -- so I believe its SFX should indicate it is an AoE unless advantages (like IPE) have been applied.  It's fine for the power to be AoE and still affect only one target (like the Omega beam) ... but it should still be plainly obvious to all that the Omega Beam has targeted an are -- even if only one person within it is affected.

 

The simple fact is that AoE Accurate affects only one target in the entire area (note that, in 6e, that could be a Megascaled area the size of a planet. The Omega Beam seeks out the one target in that whole area that I have decided to attack, and rolls to hit DCV 3 in order to connect with him. The Omega Beam deftly bends and twists to avoid striking anything else in the area as it seeks out its one target in that whole area.

Yes, it only affects one target in the entire area -- but it still covers the entire area, as well.  Thus, it should be clear that the Omega Beam is scouring the whole planet -- perhaps engulfing it in some kind of blue or pink or green glow while in use.  We see this over and over in animated comics, by the way ... where something covers a massive region but only impacts a few within it.  It should be obvious that something impacting an area -- is impacting an area (regardless of targets affected within it) -- unless it's bought with an appropriate advantage.

[Doc Democracy]

SFX for an AoE attack should be visible across the area affected by the attack, not just the target that's hit by it if it happens to be accurate -- otherwise there's no way to tell if a power is AoE (short of discriminatory/analytical senses) and, thus, no way to tell after having seen it ... if dive for cover is something one should consider.

 

Well now, you are quoting that like it is a rule.  If it is, it is a rule I have never read (entirely possible, I am not the most scrupulous reader of rulebooks) and I would appreciate you spelling it out for me.

 

I am more than happy to accept that it would be fair for GMs to indicate to players that there is something strange about the attack, that it seems to be more than normally accurate.  I have never told players in advance that an attack is area effect before it is used.  I have always allowed the players to react to the effects they experience rather than explain the game mechanics behind the powers being used against them.

 

As I (and Neil) pointed out, dive for cover is ALWAYS an option and works for normal EB as much as it does for area effect EB.

 

I need to go back to my 5ER book to look at applying dodge to an area effect attack, not something that I ever remember using so there must be some kind of wrinkle there that I missed (as I said, not the most assiduous reader of rulebooks!).  :-)  But even if it does allow a dodge modifier, that still disregards DCV.

 

Doc

[eepjr24]

I need to go back to my 5ER book to look at applying dodge to an area effect attack, not something that I ever remember using so there must be some kind of wrinkle there that I missed (as I said, not the most assiduous reader of rulebooks!).  :-)

Yeah, I had to reread it as well. 5e was never my primary edition for a game, so... 5e 248

 

Targets may Dodge Accurate attacks; they do not have to use Dive for Cover to avoid them.

[Surrealone]

Well now, you are quoting that like it is a rule.  If it is, it is a rule I have never read (entirely possible, I am not the most scrupulous reader of rulebooks) and I would appreciate you spelling it out for me.

 

 

It's just common sense.  If you engulf a planet with a MegaScaled AoE, it should be obvious you did so, no matter how many people you impact with it -- unless the power is normally not visible (example: Mind Scan used on a global level) or has IPE.  As a good example -- an accurate, stun grenade (i.e. something you throw, that explodes, and stuns) -- is an AoE -- affecting an area -- that still affects a single target.  The SFX of it should reflect that it has an explosion that hits an area, even if it only affects one person ... because it should be plainly obvious that you can't missile deflect the explosion (i.e. AoE portion) of it ... and that dive for cover may be a solid choice.  Hiding these things should be an advantage .... because it's beneficial to hide them and mere choice of SFX to NOT reflect the AoE nature of the attack shouldn't give you the advantage for free.

[DasBroot]

 Hiding these things should be an advantage .... because it's beneficial to hide them and mere choice of SFX to NOT reflect the AoE nature of the attack shouldn't give you the advantage for free.

 

I agree with this - I use Accurate for things like the old magic missile spell (darts whip around and strike you from all directions) - a planetary area attack that's only going to smoke Johnny Quickstep should certainly look like a ridiculous sky darkening anime attack.

 

I wouldn't be much of a fan for a single accurate knife thrust because you're so skilled you never miss.  How is that fair for Johnny Quickstep, who is so skilled that he can't be hit (super high DCV).  If you're going to negate all of the points he invested in that DCV (too easy to do in Hero, IMO) at least give him the satisfaction of a pillar of fire rushing in at him from all directions at once so he knows not to trust his DCV this time and to actually dodge.

[g3taso]

The simple fact is that AoE Accurate affects only one target in the entire area (note that, in 6e, that could be a Megascaled area the size of a planet. The Omega Beam seeks out the one target in that whole area that I have decided to attack, and rolls to hit DCV 3 in order to connect with him. The Omega Beam deftly bends and twists to avoid striking anything else in the area as it seeks out its one target in that whole area.

 

Thinking on it, I can make that planet-size AoE No Range - it doesn't matter whether I center it on my location or a location 30 meters distant when it can hit any one person on the same planet. Of course, I need some pretty spectacular enhanced senses to make full use of my planetary AoE - Accurate attack.

 

Dive for Cover allows you to avoid any attack by diving out of its range or area of coverage, so it does not matter whether the attack is AoE in that regard.

 

That's fantastic! I never thought about a planetary-scale AoE. Consider putting a write-up of it, mebbe paired with some nice little 1pip attack so they know they have plenty of time to think about the errors of their ways?

[Doc Democracy]

I agree with this - I use Accurate for things like the old magic missile spell (darts whip around and strike you from all directions) - a planetary area attack that's only going to smoke Johnny Quickstep should certainly look like a ridiculous sky darkening anime attack.

 

I wouldn't be much of a fan for a single accurate knife thrust because you're so skilled you never miss.  How is that fair for Johnny Quickstep, who is so skilled that he can't be hit (super high DCV).  If you're going to negate all of the points he invested in that DCV (too easy to do in Hero, IMO) at least give him the satisfaction of a pillar of fire rushing in at him from all directions at once so he knows not to trust his DCV this time and to actually dodge.

It just isn't the HERO philosophy to kibosh the use of a mechanic based on a special effect.

 

To be honest, I never liked the accurate advantage for pretty much the reason you posit, didn't particularly like the one hex area effect for the same reason. However, if you allow it for one SFX you allow it for all.

 

Again, I do not think you leave high DCV guy swinging in the wind, give him clues with each attack but do not provide game mechanics...what a mood killer...

[Surrealone]

It just isn't the HERO philosophy to kibosh the use of a mechanic based on a special effect.

It also just isn't the HERO philosophy to give advantages for free.  There's a tangible advantage in an AoE attack appearing to be a single target attack -- which means someone should pay for that advantage if they are to gain the benefits thereof.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I can't even begin to imagine why someone would compel someone to use a specific special effect for a power construction or deny some.  That's just against the very most basic principles of Hero games from its absolute beginning.

 

I get not liking using area effect to simulate an "always hits" maneuver, its not just a kludge, its kind of brain-bending to work around that mechanic, but just saying "it has to be this kind of special effect" is absolutely non-Hero.

[Ninja-Bear]

I can't even begin to imagine why someone would compel someone to use a specific special effect for a power construction or deny some. That's just against the very most basic principles of Hero games from its absolute beginning.

 

I get not liking using area effect to simulate an "always hits" maneuver, its not just a kludge, its kind of brain-bending to work around that mechanic, but just saying "it has to be this kind of special effect" is absolutely non-Hero.

Exactly. I forgot to post that if you wanted the special effect to be a blur of knife strokes. Thats fine, I think its neat. However to be forced to be because of mechanics, yeah not Hero style.

 

Btw has anyone considered accurate vs creatures such as swarms? Swarms typically have desolid not vs AoE to represent say hundreds of flies attacking you. I would say that if some one used accurate then I woukd say that you wouldn't harm the swarm but the special effect woukd be that you still are killing one or two of the buggers.

[Ninja-Bear]

Surealone you have aproblem with a single knife thrust yet by tour definition then a grenade should fill a hex before it explodes. It does not. In fact that is why when you see the grenade youbeither dive for cover away from the grenade, dive on the grenade or if it has a delay throw the thing back. Again special effect is king.

[Ninja-Bear]

Now from a different angle, lets consider change enviroment. CE is inherently AoE however according to the the rules if you wanted to build a stealth suit, buy the appropriate negative skill levels then put on self only. But according to Surrelone thinking I guess the suit still somehow has to affect the whole area.

[eepjr24]

Now from a different angle, lets consider change enviroment. CE is inherently AoE however according to the the rules if you wanted to build a stealth suit, buy the appropriate negative skill levels then put on self only. But according to Surrelone thinking I guess the suit still somehow has to affect the whole area.

No.

6e1, 174

 

At its base level, Change Environment only affects a single target. However, characters often buy the Area Of Effect Advantage for it (typically in Radius form) so that it affects an Area.

[bigbywolfe]

No.

6e1, 174

Yes. 

In 5E and before Change Environment was AoE by default, just like Darkness and Images. 

Note that the OP lists AoE in Hexes, not Meters and the first answer that led to this entire debate references 5ER.