The Dueling Arts

[Steve]

I've been reading through the new 7th Sea core book, and it got me to thinking about how some of the concepts for Errol Flynn style dueling could be simulated in Hero. I looked through the Hero System Martial Arts book and my Fantasy Hero books but couldn't find much in the way of detailed rule discussions for dueling with swords.

 

For example, taking an example from The Princess Bride, how might it affect a sword fight to deal with an opponent who was left-handed? Would a southpaw duelist get any sort of advantage in Hero terms?

 

Any examples of abilities that represent Flynn-style dueling skills would be appreciated. What would be good to use from official books like Hero System Martial Arts?

[Shadowsoul]

I'd be wary of designing new duelling rules from the ground up. Hero already has a fair amount of flexibility considering characters can use combat maneuvers and any martial maneuvers they've paid for, plus the ability to shift combat skill levels into OCV or DCV.

 

What I would do would be to add some extra widgets to allow duellists to perform extra well when facing someone of similar skill.

 

First off - 1 point advantages or disadvantages. These would function as combat skill levels or negative skill levels with conditions so that they only came into play in certaim circumstances. For example a left handed or ambidextrous fighter could gain +1 OCV against right-handed duellists. An ogre with a club is not going to care about which limb the puny human is using but a skilled swordsman could be put off his game by it.

 

1 point Disadvantages would be something like 'overcompensates on the parry' or 'favours her left side'. These would impose -1 to OCV or DCV in certain circumstances, usually if an opponent with PS: Duelling makes a succesful roll to identify one or more flaws in the character's technique.

 

The Duellist skill could be used with these 1 point bonuses/disadvantages or could replace them altogether; with a succesful roll the player or GM would say something like "she's fast but her legwork is a little sloppy" and get a bonus against that opponent.

 

Using the Duellist skill would require the character to survive at least one exchange of blows with the opponent or watch a couple of rounds from the sidelines. The second option simulates the old master saying to the young apprentice e.g. "I can tell there's an old wound in his right shoulder, get him to overextend on a thrust and the pain will slow him down long enough for you to strike."

 

This skill and or the 1 point advantages could also detect specifics of the duellist's school which could give slight bonuses or disadvantages. A sabre or scimitar style for example might require space for lots of sweeping acrobatic attacks while a particular rapier school might favour a particularly famous feint that a knowledgeable opponent could recognise and avoid.

 

The Duellist Skill could also be used to notice and use situational advantages "I have the high ground Anakin". That sort of thing.

 

The Duellist Skill and/or a Duellist Talent could also unlock a series of extra combat maneuvers that are only useful when fighting with the chosen weapons and against an appropriate opponent. If using a Tale t then buying the Talent means you can use the maneuvers at will. Using the Skill means you have to roll to use the maneuvers, either a straight Skill roll or an opposed roll. These maneuvers could include - Feint, which reduces the opponent's OCV temporarily if they attack this round. Dazzling blade which is a normal attack but makes it more difficult for the enemy to read your weaknesses. Change hands, which grants a bonus to OCV. Unrelenting assault, which drains End from both combatants. Ferocious volley, a normal attack but allows a Presence Attack which if successful imposes temporary penalties on the target.

 

You could of course build these abilities using a Duelling Multipower if you wanted.

 

I should add that considering how long vanilla Hero Combat can be you might want to be careful with adding too much complexity. Those players whose characters aren't duelling will need to be invested in the fight or content to watch from the sidelines.

 

One last thing. I did once have the idea of building a classic Hollywood swordsmanship Martial Art where all the moves were named after the things the duellist would shout while performing them. E.g. "Ahah!" "Hah!" "Hahahah!"

[Lucius]

Styleless Advantage: (Total: 15 Active Cost, 15 Real Cost) Invisibility to Analyze and Tactics Skills Group , Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (15 Active Points) (Real Cost: 15)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary likes duel purpose abilities

[Richgee]

Convert nnd manoeuvre to flash, throw sand/dirt/candle wax in opponents face.

 

Offhand weapon rule +1 dcv

 

Throw furniture/tapestry for weak entangle attack.

 

Opposing style bonuses/penalties

 

Draw attack 1/2 phase fencing vs fencing skill role to force opponent to declare action first regardless of relative dex.

[drunkonduty]

A few years ago I did up a few of the 7th Sea fencing styles as HERO martial arts. An example below.

 

The two main problems I have with it are:

 

1. the large investment of points required. 7 pts in pre-reqs and 47pts in manouevres for the below example. Others are more expensive.Okay, the full style would not be for a starting character but it represents a lot of investment over the course of a campaign.

 

2. and the complexity it adds to combat.

 

So I wouldn't use it unless I was running a VERY swashbuckle-y game.

 

I also had rival fencing schools so the game could have that whole "rival dojo thing" going on.

And a special mechanic for feinting (PER vs. Slight of Hand for DCV/OCV bonuses.)

 

 

Villanova Style
Manoeuvres listed in Italics are those listed under Fencing in the Ultimate Martial Artist (p.24) Others are detailed below.
Pre-Requisites                      Cost    Description
WF: Blades, Off Hand           2
Analyse Style                        3
Sleight of Hand                     2    only to feint (-½)

Manoeuvres            
+1 OCV/DCV Rapier              3    
+1 OCV/DCV Main Gauche   3    
Parry                                      4    +2OCV/+2DCV; Block; Abort
Thrust                                    5    +1OCV/+3DCV; Weapon
Improved Feint                       4    See below
Stop-Thrust                            6    See below
Prise de Fer                           4    +1OCV/0 DCV; Bind +10STR
Riposte                                  4    +2OCV/+2DCV; Weapon+2DC; must follow Parry
Lunge                                    5     +1OCV/-2DCV, Weapon+4DC
Invite the Attack                     3    See below. May be bought multiple times.
Unexpected Attack                 7    See below

Style Disadvantage
5 pt vulnerability        -5    1&½ Body from Lunges and Move -bys/throughs.
Common Combat Manoeuvres
Scannatura: use weapon bind with one hand and attack with the other.
School Manoeuvres:
    Improved Feint: The Villanova student has honed their reactions to a razor edge. They can  move and react with lightning speed.
    Build: +1 to Sleight of Hand (2pts), only to perform Feints (-½) AND +1 to Sight PER rolls only to detect feints(-1). Active Cost:4 Real Cost 3

    Stop-Thrust: The Villanova student may sacrifice his normal attack in order to make use of the famed Villanova Stop-Thrust. Instead of attacking the Villanova Swordsman waits for his enemy to attack and then Parries and makes a lightning Riposte.
    Game Mechanics: The Stop-Thrust takes a Full Phase. The character must Hold a Full Phase action until attacked. They then Abort to a Parry (Block.)  If the Parry succeeds they may immediately (in that same phase) attack with the Riposte manoeuvre as if using a Sweep Attack but without the -2 penalty (bought as 2 penalty skill levels worth 1pt each.) The character is still at ½ DCV for performing a Sweep so had better hope that Parry works.
    Build: 2 Weapon Fighting (10) + 2 Penalty Skill Levels vs. Sweep (2) Total Cost 12. Only to perform the Stop-Thrust Manoeuvre (-1)
Active Cost:12 Real Cost 6

    Unexpected Attack: By feinting with dagger and rapier the Villanova student is able to take their opponent off guard and make more telling blows.
    Build: HKA +1d6 (15pts), RSR Opposed Skill check: a Feint Check (-1). Real Cost: 7 The Feint Check has the usual OCV benefits (or penalties) to the attack based on it’s success.

    Invite the Attack: The Villanova student lulls his opponent by lowering his DCV in order to increase the OCV and Damage of his Stop-thrust. A character may not lower their DCV below 0 using this manoeuvre.
    Build +1 OCV with Riposte (2pts) AND +1 Martial DC (4pts); only for stop thrust (-½); Side Effect: -3 DCV (-½) Cost 3

[Richgee]

You could push it to near the level of chess making combat last gametime minutes rather than single rounds. All attacks against an other practitioner of the fencing arts have to be called shots. Each opponent gets a skill roll to identify the location and the kind of attack their opponent will make. If they succeeded they get full dcv bonuses, if they fail but luck puts their blade in roughly the right location they get a portion, otherwise it's base dcv.

 

You could introduce location and attack type cards low mid high thrust slash and parry. Selected in secret prior to the fencing skill roll.

 

The real point of fencing is to trick your opponent into a place you can take advantage. This is not based on physical skill but rather is the mental portion of the sport. I'm not suggesting it is the only way to simulate that kind of activity but it would be a very simple visual way to do it.

[Hyper-Man]

...

For example, taking an example from The Princess Bride, how might it affect a sword fight to deal with an opponent who was left-handed? Would a southpaw duelist get any sort of advantage in Hero terms?

...

 

I think Southpaws in general should get a small OCV bonus vs. a right handed opponent if only because of the rarity of being left handed (~10% of the population).  They are far more used to facing a right hander than most right handers are familiar with facing left handers.

 

This applies to many other different disciplines as well.

Examples:

• Boxers - pretty much the unarmed version of fencing & tennis* in this regard. And although the term 'Southpaw' is common in Boxing it actually originated in Baseball.  A boxer's dominant hand throws the hard punches and the weakside hand is used for Jabs (Defensive Strike).  This means they typically know what direction what type of punch is coming from.  A Southpaw forces right handed boxers to defend in reverse. A boxer with true Ambidexterity and the ability to switch up between righty and southpaw can gain a real advantage (probably more so than fencers which typically use only one hand regardless of handedness).
• Baseball Pitchers & Batters (Substitutions in baseball can be its own mini-game because of this)
• Tennis Players (Rafael Nadal is a famous Lefty) Most players attack an opponents backhand. When facing a lefty, the court is flipped. To attack a Lefty's backhand they must hit to what would normally be a forehand for most players (usually a no-no) and the lefty's forehand naturally goes cross court to their weakside backhand!
• Football Quarterbacks (only to a lesser extent) It's actually more of a liability for a team to have a mix of Quarterbacks with different handedness as each has a different 'primary blind spot' for the Tackles to defend.  A Left Tackle is the premier pass rush defender for a right handed QB.
• Golfers - The layout of several holes on most golf course have 'dog leg' curves that can be easier for golfers with a natural hook to their ball flight.  This is only true IF the curve direction matches their handedness.  (Phil Michelson is a famous lefty)

 

HM

[TheDarkness]

On the southpaw thing: for boxing, the main issue is that fighting against a southpaw basically takes away the role of the lead hand jab, which is to open up the opponent for attacks, because the position of a southpaw versus an orthodox boxer means that the angle of a lead jab to the face is, barring setup, closed for business. For fencing, for much the same reason, it makes defense against the most easily struck angle into something that requires setup. But that angle is also closed for the southpaw.

 

I would say one needs a skill, fighting southpaws. The southpaw shouldn't have an innate advantage, because, if they are dealing with someone who knows how to fight southpaws, there really is no advantage on either person's part. A skill deals with this most simply and accurately, imo. Don't have the skill, then face the penalty.

[bluesguy]

Back when I was skinny, young and fast I use to fence.  I can say fencing a left-handed fencer was harder than fencing a right handed fencer.  The reason has to do with the lines of attack and parry that a person gets use to when you mostly practice and fence against right handed fencers.  I would say the slight advantage +1 DCV for the left handed fencer.  But that advantage drops over time when fencing the same opponent for a while (say a Turn or more or an Analyze Combat skill roll) or if your opponent has practiced against left handed fencers regularly.

 

One other thing to remember is when you are 'formally' fencing you and your opponent only are allowed to move forwards and backwards on a narrow mat/path.  That is where the advantage of being a lefty really comes into play (IMO).  In a real combat situation I don't know if being a lefty would matter as much.

Edited July 10, 2016 by bluesguy

[womble]

In "freeform" combat, there are still advantages of familiarity that a habitual southpaw fighter has over a habitual orthodox fighter. In shieldwall combat, it can be useful to put your southpaws in the extreme right files, since their shields will protect against incoming from that direction, where orthodox shield users will be more open, or contorting to cover their right (and incidentally opening up the trooper to their left. Of course you probably want your best (orthodox and southpaw) fighters in adjacent files, since neither gets the benefit of their neighbour's shield, as the ranks not on the join do.

 

One or two DCV/OCV combined is probably enough to simulate the difficulties a trained orthodox stance fighter faces against a trained southpaw, and those differentials should be relatively easy to overcome with practice. For un-/barely-trained fighters, I'd increase the differential for the orthodox fighter, and add some difficulty for the southpaw: they're both less likely to be able to do each other harm.