Suffocation (Change Environnement)

[Christopher R Taylor]

He did so in post #10 of this thread.

 

Except he didn't.  Nobody you're going to use this on has 4 REC, they're gonna be higher.  So that's not enough to drain them to 0.  A continuous ½d6 Drain to END, then Stn then Body would be like 8 points.  Darkness to sound is going to be 3 points, so its 11 plus the drain to get an easy instant roll of REC up to 10 or so, etc.

 

But of course, no amount of power defense makes the slightest difference, while life support to not breathe does, so its an AVAD, probably +1/2, and the second drain does Body, so its another +1 an the price goes up and up.

 

Its not 22 points.

[Hugh Neilson]

A 1/2d6 Drain will average 2 points, so way more than 1 END (or 1 STUN) per phase. It is not a +1 advantage to drain BOD. Limitations like "only if target has no END or STUN" should make the later "drains" considerably less expensive.

 

Hero is a game where you get what you pay for, or at least that is the intent. Sometimes, that means parsing out the effects to figure out the total cost, as is being attempted above. Other times, it means, or should mean, recognizing that the ability is not nearly as powerful as those points would suggest, so we set a cost more commensurate with those points.

 

1d6 of Mental Attack should cost 5 points for 1d6 Blast, +1 (off the cuff) for AVLD Mental Defense, +1/2 for LoS range, +1/2 for IPE (leaving one Sense group) and probably +1/4 to get the END back down to 1 END per 1d6. That's 16.25 points per 1d6, and we don't have its Indirect nature yet- I can Mental Attack someone through a window - nor its ACACV aspects .

 

But we don't price it like that and it doesn't seem overpowered at the table, so I think we are correct to price it as we do. Suffocation is an effect that has far less impact than pricing out its component parts would suggest, so it's priced at a lower cost.

[Hugh Neilson]

Hmmm…autosaved content

 

I've seen 40 and 60 REC in 60 AP games. I managed to talk the 40 down to 10/40 (purchased 6 point of rec, then 30 points with 'endurance only' limitation - they really only bought it for their end use) but that 60 was basically invincible for the power level of the game.

 

On the topic I agree that 20 points seems too low - and yet in play probably about right. Denying recovery actions probably isn't a make or break situation in a combat (it would seriously annoy the players more than anything else if used against them - but only annoy them) and the counter - self contained breathing - isn't particularly uncommon (at least in any game I've ever played in or run). You'll choke the psychic out for a second but then her power armour wearing friend will clean your clock (also, she'll use mental illusions and send you to a corn field long before passing out).

 

The 'Stun' one for 40, though, can go die in a fire.

It still must hit, and must have a counter. Doing no actual damage remains a limitation. I can see it being a very annoying power, though, hence the APG and a fairly hefty cost.

 

I've never seen recovery that high, but its interesting what happens to characters when you do ram up an unusual stat. 60 presence, for example.

Still, even in a Fantasy Hero game, zeroing out recovery and eliminating post-12 recovery, plus silencing the character and the rest is worth more than 20 points.

Still looking for someone who has seen it in play to tell is whether it actually is overpowering. Silencing is pretty situational, and only costs 3 points anyway. Must use 1 END per phase - are there characters who don't? Is setting a combat underwater so overwhelming as to be grossly unfair to the Fantasy characters?

[Christopher R Taylor]

A 1/2d6 Drain will average 2 points, so way more than 1 END (or 1 STUN) per phase. It is not a +1 advantage to drain BOD. Limitations like "only if target has no END or STUN" should make the later "drains" considerably less expensive.

 

 

You missed the AVAD advantage.  That makes attacks stop doing body by default, requiring the "does body" advantage.  However many limitations you stack on it still won't lower the active cost, the basic cost of the power which is what was presented - flat out, before limitations.

 

Its not 22 points.  Its not even close to 20 points, no matter what setting its in.  A silence that prevents recoveries and slowly kills you is worth more than the listed cost.

[kukuli]

So, why isn't it just Change Environment: Bubble of Nothing and use the drowning rules?

[Grailknight]

So, why isn't it just Change Environment: Bubble of Nothing and use the drowning rules?

 

Because Change Environment doesn't actually have provisions for creating that hostile an environment. Creating a flood of that magnitude(much less a vacuum) would and should be a direct attack. Same goes for poison gas or burying in sand.

 

Suffocation is an AVAD Suppress/Drain vs REC that also forces you to continue to expend END and eventually STUN then BODY. It's under-priced for what it can do in a long one on one battle. That's a quality it shares with Damage Over Time(with DOT being the greater offender).

 

Suffocation is more a DOT that has to be maintained. Because it doesn't do STUN or BODY in the time frame we associate normally with Hero combat, we tend not to see it for the deadly attack it can be.

[Hugh Neilson]

It can be deadly. So what? So can a 1 pip HKA, Continuous, Uncontrolled, 0 END, acts once per 5 minutes. That will be cheaper and more reliable.

 

Despite all the claims that suffocation is "vastly overpowered", I am not seeing a single comment that this has become an actual, in-play issue. I suggest this indicates that pricing Suffocation as a Suppress REC + a whole slew of Drains would be vastly overpriced for the actial game benefits.

 

To the "drain with AVAD" issue, drains do not "do BOD". They drain character points. You do not need "Does BOD" to have a Drain that does BOD - it already targets Power Defense, where a Blast AVAD, Power Defense would require "Does BOD".

[Grailknight]

One explanation, is that some of us can see that it is under priced without needing to see it in play. My post acknowledged that DOT was more under priced. Saying that Suffocation is okay because another construct is more broken is kinda weak as a defensive argument. 

[Hugh Neilson]

If it were clearly underpriced without being seen in play, I'd expect a greater consensus that it is underpriced to support the assertion of clarity. I don't think a BOD drain that works once every 5 minutes is "broken" either. DOT suffers from the same issue - it is slow, and that radically decreases its utility as a combat power. Spend the same 20 points adding a 5 DC Linked STUN Drain to your main attack and see which one has more impact on combat. Or add 2 SPD to your character. Or +2 OCV, +2 DCV. Are all of those also broken?

 

Your argument is "it will kill the target if we stand around for a few minutes". Then we get "oh, it would be huge in a protracted one on one battle". So what? 4d6 of Sight Flash costs the same, and is huge in a one on one battle with an opponent with no Flash Defense and no compensatory enhanced senses (like, again, most Fantasy Fighters). And it will help my teammates be more effective since the target can't attack them either, and his DCV is reduced. Is that also underpriced?

 

Try a 2d6 SPD Drain - in a protracted fight, that will really be huge.

 

Lots of abilities are fantastic in limited circumstances. Suffocate is no different.

 

To your statement that "some of us can see that it is under priced without needing to see it in play", I respectfully reject the suggestion that the perception of that small group is somehow more likely to be accurate than the perception of those of us suggesting it is not, or that we want to see actual evidence rather than relying on your allegedly superior intuition of how the ability will work in actual play. Perhaps it is the "some of us" who perceive it is not inordinately cheap, nor overpowered, who have a superior intuitive understanding of the real impact of this ability.

 

You'd think, however, that for all the posts we see on abusive players who gravitate to overpowered constructs, we would see at least one example of this ability being implemented and being a game-breaker.

[Grailknight]

Okay, I reread the entire thread. It seems that we are evenly split on the under priced or just right opinion. That's great, one style does not fit all games.

 

Except for DOT(which does not have to be slow), all of your examples require a character to constantly hit with attacks over the course of the combat.

 

Suffocation(and DOT) is a hit once and win without the need of any other powers much less the teammates you dragged into the one on one fight. So I'll wait for examples of 20 AP powers that only require one hit from only that power before I concede that point.

 

Sorry if you took my post as implying that your opinion was inferior to mine. I meant it as to say that some of us look at the power and reason that it is under priced. Nothing more.

[Hugh Neilson]

"One hit wins the battle"? You have characters that, if just hit by that Suffocation, would just stand there, doing nothing, until they pass out? Seems unlikely.

 

I gave some other 20 AP CE's that, in the right one on one circumstances, work pretty well. A 4d6 Flash added as a 20 point power on a normal attack hits once, and isn't going to miss after that, since the target is unable to effectively defend. 20 points of Darkness can do the trick with the right characters.

 

DoT gets pretty expensive if you want it to be reasonably rabid. Otherwise, it's a "not in combat" power. 6 increments that happen once a turn is a +3 advantage. I think tripling the DC's you inflict in a single shot is likely to more rapidly end most combats. I think you are seeing effectiveness that does not extend into actual play. I'm not sure where you got the impression I agree that a one on one protracted battle is the sole determinant of an ability's power. That would suggest AoE beyond the minimum is worthless, as there is no one else to hit anyway.

 

That Suffocation is about as fight ending as a 20 AP Flash, Darkness, or Entangle. It lasts longer, and has an impact only over an extended period of time. During the period it takes to become effective, fighting the opponent is a pretty reasonable defense, or getting out of their range to maintain the power if it's so crippling, or stunning them so all END using powers cease. Meanwhile, until PS12 comes around, your character is not in any way impeded.

 

I note we're not seeing any suggestions of a more appropriate price, just "20 AP can't be right - it's a huge discount over what Suppress REC would cost". NEWSFLASH - no one is buying suppress REC. It's not sufficiently effective for its point cost. That's why Suffocate is not an 80 AP, or 180 AP, power, even though building it with Drains and Suppresses would likely work out to those figures.

 

Nor are we seeing any examples of actual problems in gameplay. Until we see such an example, rather than "it's unbalancing" hypotheses, I expect I'll continue to believe it is not unbalancing, but an unusual choice which might make an interesting ability. You're welcome to tell players in your game that their characters have to spend 100+ points to summon up a Waterspout, or a vacuum that sucks all the air out of the area, or even a simple little force bubble to surround the Hulk's head. I'll stick with a price that's reasonable in light of what I perceive the real combat effectiveness to be.

[Grailknight]

Your alternatives can be effective delaying tactics but they don't end the fight by themselves. Suffocation can

 

As for your assertion that DOT is too slow for combat, look here:

 

Blast 1d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Power Defense; All Or Nothing; +1/2), Does BODY (+1), Damage Over Time, Target's defenses only apply once, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times) (33-64 damage increments, damage occurs every Segment, +5 1/2) (40 Active Points) Note that the AVAD and Does Body are only here to make it work against a lesser defense. Take them out and it becomes a 32 AP power.

 

That's for a Supers game. Assuming a hit in the initial segment 12, the target has taken 24 BODY and 84 STUN less defenses(once) at the end of turn 2. Before it runs out in 1 minute 4 seconds, it totals 64 BODY and 224 STUN.

 

For a Fantasy or Heroic game cut it to 1/2d6 and you get 12 BODY and 48 STUN less defenses(once) and 32 BODY and 128 STUN at conclusion.

 

IME, combats last 2 turns which makes this an effective power in combat. If your experience is shorter combats then I agree that it's slow however if your combats last longer this is really nasty in combat. In all cases it's nasty if the means of stopping it aren't readily available afterwards.

 

I've tried pricing Suffocation in HD but I haven't got a model I'm satisfied with. For what its contributes, my attempts come in around 50 AP and 25-37 RP. It's not that expensive but it's not 20 AP either.

[Hugh Neilson]

Your alternatives can be effective delaying tactics but they don't end the fight by themselves. Suffocation can

This depends on how one defines "ending the fight". If you wait around while the target gradually erodes their END, then their STUN, then their BOD, eventually they will die. I don't find this typical of Hero combat, which means I don't consider Suffocation, all by its lonesome, to end the fight. Other, similarly priced abilities will be as or more effective at ending the fight.

 

As for your assertion that DOT is too slow for combat, look here:

 

Blast 1d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Power Defense; All Or Nothing; +1/2), Does BODY (+1), Damage Over Time, Target's defenses only apply once, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times) (33-64 damage increments, damage occurs every Segment, +5 1/2) (40 Active Points) Note that the AVAD and Does Body are only here to make it work against a lesser defense. Take them out and it becomes a 32 AP power.

 

That's for a Supers game. Assuming a hit in the initial segment 12, the target has taken 24 BODY and 84 STUN less defenses(once) at the end of turn 2. Before it runs out in 1 minute 4 seconds, it totals 64 BODY and 224 STUN.

First off, your Power Defense All or Nothing means that no one with Power Defense takes any damage. You have made this an NND. It won't change the pricing much. Second, anyone looking at a power with +7 in advantages and not thinking "I wonder if this could get abusive" is not thinking this through. Neither screams "experienced Hero gamer able to eyeball an ability and accurately assess its potential impact".

 

As well, your target has taken two turns prior to any PS12 recovery (for STUN), and appears to have just stood around bemoaning his fate. What is the fairly obvious shutdown condition for your DoT power? What is the special effect of this ability, which inflicts damage far quicker than pretty much anything in the game? Suffocation models the target being cut off from the atmosphere. What does a power that inflicts 1d6 per second for a minute, against power defense once, model, and do I want that in game?

 

Of greatest note, it is not really comparable to the fellow who, at the end of turn 2, was required to spend at least one END per phase. He probably spends at least one END per phase even if he is not suffocating - and missed a PS 12 recovery. Suffocation also requires END continue to be spent by the attacker, where DoT does not.

 

I don't think the fact you can build an abusive power with DoT proves Suffocation is underpriced. The fact a specific construct can be used to build an abusive ability means that construct is fatally flawed - it s being abused, rather than used. The entire Hero system can be abused. Look up Margarita Man for a similar "let's build the ability to abuse the system, rather than to make a good game" construction. It doesn't mean Mind Scan, Mental Powers, or the Cumulative advantage are horribly mispriced. It means the great power of flexibility comes with great responsibility to use it wisely.

 

I've tried pricing Suffocation in HD but I haven't got a model I'm satisfied with. For what its contributes, my attempts come in around 50 AP and 25-37 RP. It's not that expensive but it's not 20 AP either.

It's not dissimilar to that DoT at 37 RP. Is its effectiveness equally similar? Is it as useful as, say, Desolidification at 40 points? How about a 6d6 Flash, or a 6d6 EGO or END Drain? Maybe a Multipower of 6d6 Flash and several Drains, all of which can be Multiple Attacked on top of the character's conventional attack? Let's keep the costs similar - 6d6 STUN and END Drain, in a Multipower, is 36. In every phase my regular attack hits, the target also loses 6d6 CP of END, so average 21 x 5 x 1/2 is over 50 END. I find most Hero characters hit well over half the time, but at 40% this is still a conservative average of 20 END per phase.

 

Do you think that will be more or less equally effective to the Suffocation power? Your pricing suggests it should be. Unless this is also underpriced. Maybe everything is underpriced.

[Grailknight]

First off, we never said this was a typical combat but it was a one on one fight. Here's a scenario;

 

Apprentice is sent to die in the arena vs a Gladiator.  A only knows one spell, Suffocation because he's an apprentice. He hits with it as G closes and then spends the rest of the fight blocking, dodging and fleeing for his life. G may corner and kill A or A may evade until G drops. But A only needs Suffocation to win.

 

Secondly, I made the power example AVAD to be comparable to Suffocation. Did you pay attention to the note that it would be less expensive (32 points for 1d6 Supers version and 16 points for the 1/2d6 Fantasy/Heroic version) Of course it's abusive but that wasn't the contention. You said DOT wasn't fast enough in combat time so I gave an example to counter your argument.

 

But it does appear that it's possible to look at a power without seeing it in play and say that it's under priced doesn't it?

 

Thirdly, though Hero does a very good job of balance, all Powers are not equally effective for their point cost. I concede that Suffocation doesn't work quickly on its own. But just like the target of Suffocation can fight back so can the user. If Suffocation is followed by an END Drain that lack of REC means you have to burn STUN to stay alive. 20 points is too little to negate any value of REC from 4 to 400 in one blow. It allows you to maintain Suffocation for only 2 END outside of your other attacks. It's that aspect that makes it too under price to me but YMMV.

 

Lastly, I came up with a ballpark figure of closely 50 Active Points with built in Disadvantages getting the cost to 25-37 Real Points. The DOT is a clearly superior power(as I said in Post 31) and can cost as little 16 Active points for the 1/2d6 Fantasy/Heroic version. I'm not comparing one at AP to another at RP.  And yes, your 6d6 STUN & END Drain will be more effective. That's a 75 Active Point power, no matter how you reduce it to 36 Real Points.

[Hugh Neilson]

3d6 END and SUN drain in an MP is still vastly more powerful than Suffocation.

 

A has to hit first. Does Gladiator have a DCV an apprentice can be guaranteed of hitting? Does he have the OCV or DCV to manage to avoid Gladiator for all that time? Even with the deck stacked in his favour, I don't think A has great odds.

 

Why start with Suffocation if you have the END drain? It is the END drain that is having the real impact - Suffocation is enhancing it. Although the Suffocation does not prevent the drained END returning - that follows the adjustment power rules, so you don't need a recovery for it to come back. Why doesn't END Drain or STUN Drain have to pay enough points to suppress REC to 5?

 

For that matter, why doesn't Desolid cost enough to buy defense to the point of invulnerability? Shouldn't AoE Accurate be priced at a sufficient cost to Suppress the top campaign DCV to 3?

 

You seem to hold Suffocation to a very different standard. I don't think it is nearly as powerful as you suggest.

 

Oh, and Gladiator's WF can end the fight - all he has to do is hit and roll a Head location, and the fight is likely over, so if he hits, but would miss with the penalty for non-familiarity, that 2 points ended the fight.

[Christopher R Taylor]

If suffocate only did damage, then these arguments would be more compelling, but silencing and removing recovery is significantly more. Ignoring that suggests people know that and don't want to consider it.

[eepjr24]

If suffocate only did damage, then these arguments would be more compelling, but silencing and removing recovery is significantly more. Ignoring that suggests people know that and don't want to consider it.

Outside of FH, silencing is not nearly as deadly. And if you want to argue against that, then I suggest you switch your arguments to the worse culprit: Darkness vs Hearing for 3 points. 

[Hugh Neilson]

As eepjt24 notes, silencing an opponent is not expensive. A Choke Hold will do the trick, as well as the very inexpensive Darkness. Removing recovery is the main reason it costs 20 points. Doing 1 END (if the target is not spending END already), then 1 STUN, then one BOD per phase has a pretty minimal combat impact.

 

"It can kill a target who is already helpless" is of limited value, especially in that Fantasy game where rDEF is typically obtained through Foci or is nonpersistent. A spell wears off, armor can be avoided or removed and combat luck doesn't help a KOd opponent. 1 BOD per turn is negligible compared to the damage a typical FH opponent can inflict on a helpless target if the goal is to kill him.

[Hugh Neilson]

I would suggest that what is actually being ignored is that imposing the inability to recover is not as powerful as the cost of a REC Drain or Suppress would suggest. Why would anyone Suppress REC and wait out the turn(s) when an END and STUN drain will be so much more effective, so much more rapidly?

 

The issue is not that those of us who disagree that this is the Combat Winner you suggest believe it is valueless, but that we believe 20 points is in the ballpark if the ability must first hit and then be maintained.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its less significant outside fantasy hero, but removing recovery is also important.  And the two together?  Ignoring them is like they get in the way of the point you're trying to make rather than a side issue you can disregard.

 

Particularly since the argument has been "it is more balanced in heroic" which is even less true with silence in it.

 

That being said, you make a good point about darkness vs sound being only 3 points.  The problem here isn't that darkness vs hearing should cost more. Its that being deaf shouldn't shut off incantations.  Just because you can't be heard does not mean you didn't do the incantation.

 

To me, a 10 point "silence" Change Environment power makes more sense than using darkness.

[Grailknight]

Never said A would auto-win just that he had a chance. If I had to bet,  I'd bet on G. But that doesn't mean that running till a more powerful opponent exhausts himself is a strategy that never works.

 

Yeah, the 3d6 END and STUN Drain is a better power. It also costs almost twice as much and has a more common defense. How much cheaper should it be?

 

The thing is, you can't come close to building it on 20 Active point. I've tried starting with CE, Suppress and Drain and Drain comes closest.

 

If you go with CE, you have to realize that you can't take away REC or END. CE can give you a penalty for a task that requires a roll but it has no effect on things that don't. There is no circumstance in Hero that requires a REC roll except Drain and while CE can do damage it doesn't do Drain. If you handwave that then you get to making the target spend END. What does your power do if he just sits and meditates. Again, nothing by RAW unless you make it into a type of Drain. 

 

There are 3 flaws in trying Suppress.

 

Suppress is an Adjustment Power and all of the CHAR affected by Suffocation are Defensive. That means all the points are doubled and you need 3d6 to reliably reduce the REC of a Normal NPC and larger amounts of dice to do the subsequent CHAR which will all be higher. You also need to add Variable Effect to change between CHAR so that means more Active Points.

 

You could do it with repeated 1d6 attacks but you have to spend END to maintain each one's effect and Suppress cannot have reduced END in any form by RAW. That will exhaust you long before the target.

 

Third, Suppress cannot actually kill you with reduced BODY. Steve has ruled that you go into a deathlike coma but you pop up as good as new when the Suppress stops no matter how negative you are.

 

Finally,  you can build it with Drain and I actually got closer to 20 Active than I thought I could this way. 

 

1d6 Drain vs STUN and BODY,(+1/2 Variable Effect), (+1/2 Constant), (+1 1/4 Reduced Return Rate, so you don't recover before the Drain is finished) the AVAD portion goes as +0 and then Disadvantages of (-1/2 Must be Maintained) (-1/4 must Drain STUN to zero before Draining BODY) so 32 Active Points and 18 Real Points.

 

Add the Darkness and you get a 35 Active Point Power and 20 Real Points. You still have to hit in each successive phase and the problems with the END expenditure are still there. You could add DOT(adding +5 1/2 Advantage and reducing Must Be Maintained to +0) but that gives you 87 Active and 70 Real Points 

 

Oh and Desolid has has enough problems since there's an advantage that negates in addition to to the defined weakness and the +2 cost if you want to affect something. 

 

I don't allow AOE accurate because it negates DCV. AOE is good enough

[dmjalund]

you can suffocate someone without stopping them from speaking

 

 

like having them breath pure nitrogen for instance

[eepjr24]

you can suffocate someone without stopping them from speaking

 

like having them breath pure nitrogen for instance

Sure? Just buy the Suffocate with "Does not prevent speech"? Any number of special effects would work. Interfering with or preventing red blood cells from absorbing oxygen, removing oxygen from the body faster than it can be absorbed, a number of inert gases, etc.

 

You could also get a very similar effect by breaking the electron transport chain, which is oxygen's primary use by the body.

 

- E

[Hugh Neilson]

Its less significant outside fantasy hero, but removing recovery is also important.  And the two together?  Ignoring them is like they get in the way of the point you're trying to make rather than a side issue you can disregard.

I agree removing recovery is important. That's the main reason it costs 20 points. Silencing a target, by itself, is not expensive. Should it be? Well, a simple Grab stops the use of Gestures, which is the sister limitation to Incantations.

 

Particularly since the argument has been "it is more balanced in heroic" which is even less true with silence in it.

The swing to "less powerful" (note: "too expensive" is just as unbalanced as "too cheap") in Heroic arises only due to the BOD damage done, and the damaging ability of Suffocate is a negligible add-on. The Silence effect is a situational one (especially since CE is perceivable itself). Its only significant impact is the denial of recoveries. That's not an ability worth 20 points. As well, if modeled on elimination of the REC score, it should arguably be cheaper in Heroic, where recovery scores are lower.

 

I would not change the price, given "need not breathe" is more common in Supers.

 

That being said, you make a good point about darkness vs sound being only 3 points.  The problem here isn't that darkness vs hearing should cost more. Its that being deaf shouldn't shut off incantations.  Just because you can't be heard does not mean you didn't do the incantation.

 

To me, a 10 point "silence" Change Environment power makes more sense than using darkness.

 

That brings blocking Hearing over an area to a cost similar to blocking Sight. Back to "everything is underpriced". Incantations is a limitation. It should be able to come into play.

 

Never said A would auto-win just that he had a chance. If I had to bet,  I'd bet on G. But that doesn't mean that running till a more powerful opponent exhausts himself is a strategy that never works.

I would not price an ability that permits a slim chance of victory the same as a reliable power.

 

Yeah, the 3d6 END and STUN Drain is a better power. It also costs almost twice as much and has a more common defense. How much cheaper should it be?

You suggested about 50 AP for Suffocation. For 36, I can have a multipower of the two Drains. For 20, I can remove the target's ability to recover, force him to spend at least 1 END per phase, lose 1 STUN per phase if he's out of END and "bleed out" if he's KOd. And I get the SFX of Silence. I don't think that Multipower should be priced the same as Suffocation. Your stated alternative would make Suffocation have higher AP and a similar real cost.

 

And Power Defense isn't all that common - that's why AVAD is more expensive. Since Drains drop REC to a fixed 5, and prevent non-PS12 recoveries, how much extra should that cost (ie what proportion of Suffocate is a side effect of the mechanics of these powers?).

 

If you go with CE, you have to realize that you can't take away REC or END. CE can give you a penalty for a task that requires a roll but it has no effect on things that don't. There is no circumstance in Hero that requires a REC roll except Drain and while CE can do damage it doesn't do Drain. If you handwave that then you get to making the target spend END. What does your power do if he just sits and meditates. Again, nothing by RAW unless you make it into a type of Drain.

The rules say otherwise. CE can reduce movement, do minor STUN damage, change temperature and wind levels - lots of things that don't require any kind of roll. And CE does not just penalize rolls - it imposes them. I don't typically have to roll to stay standing without a CE power (or environmental effect) imposing such a roll. One major role of CE is to allow characters to invoke environmental effects. Suffocation is an environmental effect.

 

1d6 Drain vs STUN and BODY,(+1/2 Variable Effect), (+1/2 Constant), (+1 1/4 Reduced Return Rate, so you don't recover before the Drain is finished) the AVAD portion goes as +0 and then Disadvantages of (-1/2 Must be Maintained) (-1/4 must Drain STUN to zero before Draining BODY) so 32 Active Points and 18 Real Points.

That does STUN right out of the gate, 3x as fast as Suffocation, and does not allow the target to deliberately lower his SPD. The main reason a Suffocation power was needed, IMO, was that there was no practical way to build the effect in question.

 

I don't allow AOE accurate because it negates DCV. AOE is good enough

1 hex area also negates DCV, and it costs less than AoE Accurate. But I certainly see the trend of "disallow options". NND denies a target all defenses - should it also be disallowed, as it costs less than Suppressing defenses, and allows the first attack to take advantage of those Suppressed defenses? AVACV might be less costly than suppressing or aiding a CV - does it have to go as well? Armor Piercing is similarly guilty of suppressing half the opponent's defenses and allowing reduced defenses on the first Linked attack.

 

I have not found Accurate to be unbalanced in play, nor does NND or AP prove the gamewinner it may initially appear to be. You are actually doing a pretty fine job of persuading me that Suffocation is likely priced about right, despite not having any real experience seeing it in play.

[Christopher R Taylor]

That brings blocking Hearing over an area to a cost similar to blocking Sight. Back to "everything is underpriced". Incantations is a limitation. It should be able to come into play.

 

 

...OK let me repeat.

Darkness vs sound is find as written.  The cost is acceptable to me, as it is a minor effect.

Silencing people is another story entirely, and quite powerful.  That should cost more than 3 points.

Is that more clear now?  Not hearing: talking.  A separate power, because being quiet doesn't mean you didn't incant.