Am I modelling waking up with noise correctly?

[techogre]

I want to model waking up sleeping thugs. What I have now is a PER roll at +4 from the warning bell and shouts. If they make it they're at 1/2 OCV and DCV on turn 0, phase 12, and full OCV and DCV on turn 1, phase 6. If not they're 0 OCV and DCV on phase 12, turn 0, 1/2 OCV and DCV on phase 6, turn 1, and full OCV and DCV on phase 12, turn 1.

 

Does this make sense?

 

Entered on my phone.

[Christopher]

While in effect Sleep also includes the following penalties:
2 times STUN damage taken

1/2 hit location penalties.

Oddly enough, the DCV is NOT affected by being asleep it appears. You would still be half DCV from being prone, but there might still be a chance you turn in just the right moment. Note that "being prone" can also mean "being off balance". You can be "prone" while flying, without falling - you are simply off balance.

 

Lightsleep (6E1 144) gives us the Background for "waking up when danger appears":
"Normally a character must make Hearing PER
Rolls at -6 to wake up when someone enters the
room, leans over his bed, makes an unusual noise,
or the like. A character with Lightsleep makes his
normal PER Roll to wake up (if the other individual makes a Stealth roll, this becomes a Skill
Versus Skill Contest). "

I assume taking damage will instantly wake you up (unless of course that attack knocked you out). Normal rules for "using powers hidden" apply.

 

After being unconscious (sleep or being knocked out), your endurance starts at 0. With luck you might get a post segment 12 recovery quickly because the combat just started with whatever woke you. Otherwise you have to burn your Stun, inlcuding for stuff that normally only costs 1 Endurance (dodge, using STR to stand up).

Even if you are wake, you are still considered prone until you take the (usual) action to stand up. People may obviously use any trick to shortcut the standing up normally allowed.
I asume normal waking up includes actively taking recoveries (in addition to the post-seg 12 ones) until you reach maximum END and earliest standing up then.

 

6E2 14 lists a few perception modifiers:

A otherwise quiet Area gives +3. Sleeping places are usually quiet/sleeping asumes any sound will stand out.

Pecepting a shout gives +2 and a Whistle +3

The use of weapons gives from +3 through +6

 

Do not forget that with any alarm, the character has a chance to wake up at least every phase he would normally have. So even if they fail thier first roll, they would get more.

[Nolgroth]

After being unconscious (sleep or being knocked out), your endurance starts at 0. With luck you might get a post segment 12 recovery quickly because the combat just started with whatever woke you. Otherwise you have to burn your Stun, inlcuding for stuff that normally only costs 1 Endurance (dodge, using STR to stand up).

Even if you are wake, you are still considered prone until you take the (usual) action to stand up. People may obviously use any trick to shortcut the standing up normally allowed.

I asume normal waking up includes actively taking recoveries (in addition to the post-seg 12 ones) until you reach maximum END and earliest standing up then.

 

The 0 END when waking up from normal sleep doesn't seem right. I completely agree with the getting knocked out part and can see where it says that in the rules. I cannot find something similar for normal sleep. Conceptually speaking, waking up from sleep is not the same as waking up after being knocked about and injured to the point where the body just has to shut down. If nothing else, dramatic sense tells me that a character waking up from normal sleep would not have zero endurance to pull from. Might be groggy and at a penalty for a turn or so, but starting with no end makes no sense at all. 

[Armitage]

Oddly enough, the DCV is NOT affected by being asleep it appears.

 

 

I think that some of the "-0" on the table on 6E2 37 are supposed to represent "your DCV becomes 0".

 

e.g. Affected by PRE +30 Presence Attack, Entangled, and Knocked Out all say "-0".

 

6E2 136 says "Target's PRE +30.  Target is cowed.  He may surrender, run away, or faint.  He is at 0 DCV, and will nearly always follow commands."

6E2 106 says "When a character is Knocked Out, his OCV, DCV, and MCV are instantly reduced to zero."

6E1 215 says "When a character is Entangled, his arms and legs are restrained, giving him a DCV of 0."

[Christopher]

The 0 END when waking up from normal sleep doesn't seem right. I completely agree with the getting knocked out part and can see where it says that in the rules. I cannot find something similar for normal sleep. Conceptually speaking, waking up from sleep is not the same as waking up after being knocked about and injured to the point where the body just has to shut down. If nothing else, dramatic sense tells me that a character waking up from normal sleep would not have zero endurance to pull from. Might be groggy and at a penalty for a turn or so, but starting with no end makes no sense at all. 

Normal waking up is a process that happens over minutes. That you are not at 0 end after that is nothing special. As I said, you had plenty of time to take recoveries.

In case of an alarm clock, I clearly noticed the behavior of my body to start waking up or already being awake before the alarm even goes off. Unless I planned my sleep phases really poorly, at wich point I can just sleep through the alarm.

 

We are talking about suddenly waking up.

Sleep is the phase were the body drops all readiness to recover reserves. It is by definition our most vulnerable state.

Being ready for being suddenly woken up and having to fight for your live is literally the last thing on the bodies list of concerns. If it had to maintain that readyness, it could not recover.

[Nolgroth]

You have very different responses to waking up than I do my friend. Perhaps it is my perpetual state of paranoia but I wake up to noise and I can fight a war before getting tired. I also tend to sleep very lightly unless I just reach an absolute exhaustion point. Still, up to the OP how he wants to deal with that and I have no dog in this hunt. If he wants 0 END on waking up, then so be it. I just don't see where the official rules even addresses waking up from normal sleep so I would guess anything would be a House Rule at that point. 

[Hugh Neilson]

Normal waking up is a process that happens over minutes. That you are not at 0 end after that is nothing special. As I said, you had plenty of time to take recoveries.

In case of an alarm clock, I clearly noticed the behavior of my body to start waking up or already being awake before the alarm even goes off. Unless I planned my sleep phases really poorly, at wich point I can just sleep through the alarm.

 

We are talking about suddenly waking up.

Sleep is the phase were the body drops all readiness to recover reserves. It is by definition our most vulnerable state.

Being ready for being suddenly woken up and having to fight for your live is literally the last thing on the bodies list of concerns. If it had to maintain that readyness, it could not recover.

I agree with Nolgroth - when awakened suddenly by a loud noise, the body is typically in "fight or flight" mode. I had a friend many years ago who described waking up in the night, laying back down and realizing his heart was racing - he had a tough time calming down and going back to sleep. In the morning, he discovered a house on the same block had exploded during the night - a gas leak. He had no recollection of that noise, but that was clearly what had awakened him.

 

The body had plenty of time to take recoveries while it was asleep. I would suggest that the sleeper awakens surprised, with the usual penalties, and can make a PER roll in the phase in which he awakens to perceive the situation and react rapidly enough to avoid penalties, otherwise being 1/2 OCV and DCV until his next phase. I would not allow an action in the phase of awakening. I'd allow Aborting between waking up and that next phase, even if he failed the roll (but still half DCV in that case).

 

There's a big difference between being awakened by loud/unusual noises, such as combat, and having the alarm go off, or the radio start, or otherwise waking up with no urgent need to take any action.

[eepjr24]

After being unconscious (sleep or being knocked out), your endurance starts at 0. With luck you might get a post segment 12 recovery quickly because the combat just started with whatever woke you. Otherwise you have to burn your Stun, inlcuding for stuff that normally only costs 1 Endurance (dodge, using STR to stand up).

Even if you are wake, you are still considered prone until you take the (usual) action to stand up. People may obviously use any trick to shortcut the standing up normally allowed.

I asume normal waking up includes actively taking recoveries (in addition to the post-seg 12 ones) until you reach maximum END and earliest standing up then.

Can you provide a page reference for the END starting at 0? Closest I found was 6e2, 106:

 

The body of an unconscious character puts its entire energy reserve into waking up. Because of this, when he wakes up, his END equals his current STUN total.

But that is under being knocked out. The book makes distictions between being knocked out and asleep in many different places. I don't see a specific reference to waking up with 0 END.

 

I would houserule otherwise, personally if it says that somewhere. Probably start you with half or the like. I have had to wake up VERY suddenly (General Quarters or Security Alert from a dead sleep) and I did not have any trouble moving very quickly (getting dressed while running, running up multiple sets of stairs, sweeping the ship for intruders, etc). And I am not some paragon of fitness, nor was I at the time. I could pass the PT tests but struggled with some parts.

 

- E

[Christopher]

Can you provide a page reference for the END starting at 0? Closest I found was 6e2, 106:

Damn. I seem to have a weak memory week again.

I simply missremembered that part.

[techogre]

Thanks for your answers.

[Nolgroth]

As much as I may not agree with it, you don't get any more official than this: http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94056-end-when-waking-up/

 

When Steve Long says it, then that is the official interpretation. 

[eepjr24]

Yep. I will probably house rule that to be something like 2x REC. For me there is no comparison between my energy level when waking up and my energy level when I am completely exhausted.

 

- E

[Nolgroth]

If I write anything meant for "official" interpretation, I will follow the leader. If I run my own campaign, bet your sweet bippy that house rules will prevail. 

[eepjr24]

nods. Not seeing that it will come up incredibly often in "official" intepretations, since that level of detail is generally left up to the GM.

 

- E

[Sean Waters]

If they are guards, they are probably used to being woken up: I'm not at all sure that I wake with 0 END, in fact I'm sure I don't.  I'm awake at the first sound of the alarm and already lurching out of bed to shut it off, which I couldn't do if I needed a recovery first.  Still, them's the rules.

 

I would think though that, whilst this is an almost perfect Hero discussion, the issue is probably lost here in the detail.  If a guard wakes then they are probably not going to be dressed in armour and carrying weapons.  They will probably have been stowed somewhere.  Getting combat ready is going to take a few minutes in any event.  What combat stats they have the instant they wake rarely matters: if they are in combat that quickly they are going to be massively disadvantaged anyway.

 

If you want an 'instant wake' then take LS: Does not sleep with the limitation: needs to rest as if sleeping for 6 hours a day during which they are semi-aware* (-1/2).  That is probably a good way to model someone who is not going to take penalties for waking up, but still needs to get their head down.  It would also allow them to snatch bits of rest when they can without necessarily doing it all in one go, which is a kinda special forces trope.

 

As they are never actually asleep they suffer none of the penalties of waking up.

 

 

*semi-aware would mean that they could be instantly aroused at a touch or noise stimulus over a certain level: sneaking past would not rouse them, clumping past would.  You model this by giving them a PER roll when there is an unusual change in the environment.

[Christopher]

*semi-aware would mean that they could be instantly aroused at a touch or noise stimulus over a certain level: sneaking past would not rouse them, clumping past would.  You model this by giving them a PER roll when there is an unusual change in the environment.

That is called "Lightsleep".

 

That "Life Support: No Sleep; Only to avoid penalties to End, Perception and CV while sleeping or waking up(-1/4)" would have to be worth it.

I put the limitaiton value so low because that is almost the entire reason you take that power to begin with - less time being asleep/vulnerable.

[Sean Waters]

Lightsleep still means that you wake up normally i.e with No END etc.  Building it with LS: Does not need to sleep has a material difference in game play.  I would be happy enough to not have a limitation at all: Lightsleep costs the same as the highest level of LS No Sleep in any event.  Mind you, having to rest (but not sleep) is still more onerous than not having to sleep at all.  It might not come up often but then it is a real limitation on the base power, and being attacked whilst asleep is something that does happen in quite a lot of games.

 

In fact what I might do is buy the LS at the one point level: experienced guards only really need one good night's sleep a week, the rest of the time they are more than half awake even when resting their eyes.  That is even cheaper than Lightsleep, and not terribly unrealistic.  People can certainly go without sleep , or at least only tiny amounts, for a long time if they need to.

 

The problem with Lightsleep is that it is built as a situational PER bonus, probably because it is something normal people can have, so is far more expensive than not having to sleep at all, or having to rest but not actually sleep.

 

In fact, Sleep is treated in a bit of a weird way in Hero.  The lack of a DCV penalty (really, you should have a base DCV of 0 when asleep) is strange because it means that, for example, an experienced boxer would be more difficult to hit whilst sleeping than someone of the same size who lacks his combat prowess.

 

Doesn't seem right.

 

Anyway, there is a bit of a culture clash here.  I suppose the answer is that, in a game where you can not use powers or 'talents' built with powers, you can not get around the odd rules for being asleep, you can just do something about waking up.

 

Also, funnily enough, I couldn't spot any penalties for not sleeping.  I would suggest a cumulative -1 on all rolls per day of missed sleep, and you can temporarily overcome that with an EGO roll (at the appropriate penalty).  Level of success indicates how long you can throw off the effects of tiredness for (next roll, next phase, next turn, next minutes, next 5 minutes etc.

 

In addition the GM can call on you to make EGO rolls to not fall asleep (at the appropriate penalty) whenever you are doing something boring or when not much is happening.

 

I would also make waking up from being unconscious take longer if you are sleep deprived, and possibly have a cumulative Maximum Stun total reduction.

 

If you wanted a more 'all or nothing' effect, you could apply the penalties you have for sleeping even when you are awake if you are sleep deprived.  That would be nasty.

 

While I'm banging on, I don't like the little 'bonus' that Lightsleep gives you of being able to conceal waking up.  That is a Bluff, isn't it?  Anyone should be able to do that, or at least try.

[Christopher]

Lightsleep still means that you wake up normally i.e with No END etc.  Building it with LS: Does not need to sleep has a material difference in game play.  I would be happy enough to not have a limitation at all: Lightsleep costs the same as the highest level of LS No Sleep in any event.  Mind you, having to rest (but not sleep) is still more onerous than not having to sleep at all.  It might not come up often but then it is a real limitation on the base power, and being attacked whilst asleep is something that does happen in quite a lot of games.

 

In fact what I might do is buy the LS at the one point level: experienced guards only really need one good night's sleep a week, the rest of the time they are more than half awake even when resting their eyes.  That is even cheaper than Lightsleep, and not terribly unrealistic.  People can certainly go without sleep , or at least only tiny amounts, for a long time if they need to.

 

The problem with Lightsleep is that it is built as a situational PER bonus, probably because it is something normal people can have, so is far more expensive than not having to sleep at all, or having to rest but not actually sleep.

 

In fact, Sleep is treated in a bit of a weird way in Hero.  The lack of a DCV penalty (really, you should have a base DCV of 0 when asleep) is strange because it means that, for example, an experienced boxer would be more difficult to hit whilst sleeping than someone of the same size who lacks his combat prowess.

 

Doesn't seem right.

 

Anyway, there is a bit of a culture clash here.  I suppose the answer is that, in a game where you can not use powers or 'talents' built with powers, you can not get around the odd rules for being asleep, you can just do something about waking up.

 

Also, funnily enough, I couldn't spot any penalties for not sleeping.  I would suggest a cumulative -1 on all rolls per day of missed sleep, and you can temporarily overcome that with an EGO roll (at the appropriate penalty).  Level of success indicates how long you can throw off the effects of tiredness for (next roll, next phase, next turn, next minutes, next 5 minutes etc.

As for the price of Lightsleep vs Does not need to Sleep:

You are right, that is wierd.

I would guess Lightsleep is only applicatable if you can not buy "LS: No need to sleep to begin with? Hero is prone to a few odities in the very low point costs and the fringes of "genre Apropirate".

Maybe the LS just needs to be a lot more expensive in games where it actually matters?

 

That with no DCV penalty was propably my oversight. As Steve longs answer said:

"Sleeping is like being Knocked Out in every aspect, unless the GM says otherwise." So yes, you ae at 0 DCV on top of the 1/2 hit location penalties.

 

As the answer also said, Sleep Deprivatin rules are on APG II 112.

Right after they deal with natural Diseases.

Mostly it is a LTE loss, with the amount of LTE loss due to SD also triggering secondary effects.

It also clarifies the defense rules:

"A sleeping character is at DCV 0, DMCV 0 and cannot fght. Te penalty for targeting specifc Hit Locations against him is halved. All hits do 2x

STUN damage, since he’s automatically considered “Surprised.”"

[Nolgroth]

In fact, Sleep is treated in a bit of a weird way in Hero.  The lack of a DCV penalty (really, you should have a base DCV of 0 when asleep) is strange because it means that, for example, an experienced boxer would be more difficult to hit whilst sleeping than someone of the same size who lacks his combat prowess.

 

Doesn't seem right.

 

Being "Knocked Out" instantly changes DCV to 0. As Steve Long's reply about the state of waking up very explicitly references those rules, I imagine you can carry that over. I would. 

 

Also, funnily enough, I couldn't spot any penalties for not sleeping.  I would suggest a cumulative -1 on all rolls per day of missed sleep, and you can temporarily overcome that with an EGO roll (at the appropriate penalty).  Level of success indicates how long you can throw off the effects of tiredness for (next roll, next phase, next turn, next minutes, next 5 minutes etc.

 

 

The absence of official rules allows plenty of room for House Rules. I would give a normal person 24 hours of uninterrupted wakefulness. After that, I would apply an Ego check every six hours to stay awake, up to the 36 hour period. Then it would be every hour after that. Each check would roll with a cumulative -1 to the roll, so at 36 hours, it would be -2. At hour 37, it would be -3 and so on. Things like combat would "suspend" the Ego check. Stimulants like caffeine would provide a bonus, but once the penalty gets high enough, the bonus won't mean much. After 48 hours, I would automatically apply a -1 Recovery penalty every hour. For the normal, that gives them until hour 52 where they can Recover at all. Characters with a higher Recovery would last longer, but soon enough, they will hit that wall. Eventually, with no Recovery, they will burn through all of their END and Stun before falling Unconscious. That happens, they need a full 8 + 1d6 hours of sleep to recovery their Recovery and the other rules for recovering from being Knocked Out would apply. Any lack of sleep beyond that would require some form of Life Support or other full-on Power that aided END, Stun and Recovery. I would not necessarily insist upon a cumulative penalty for being tired, but I might go along the lines of defining time frames with narrative labels. When you hit that label, you are at a certain penalty. Examples: Fatigued (24 hours): -1, Tired (36 hours): -2, Exhausted (48 hours): -2 but cannot use Skill Levels or Penalty Skill Levels, and Semi-Coherent (once Recovery is spent): -4 plus no Skill or Penalty Skill Levels

[Christopher]

Being "Knocked Out" instantly changes DCV to 0. As Steve Long's reply about the state of waking up very explicitly references those rules, I imagine you can carry that over. I would. 

 

 

The absence of official rules allows plenty of room for House Rules.[...]

I think you missed my post above. Or at least my later edit.

[Vanguard]

As much as I may not agree with it, you don't get any more official than this: http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94056-end-when-waking-up/

 

When Steve Long says it, then that is the official interpretation. 

 

Just because it's the official interpretation doesn't mean you have to use it.

 

That's the beauty of Hero.

 

Edit: I thought we could delete posts . . .. 

 

Anyway, I see later that you basically said what I just did so, sorry for being repetitive.

[eepjr24]

Just because it's the official interpretation doesn't mean you have to use it.

True, but for those here who develop official Hero products, that is the rule.

 

- E

[Nolgroth]

Anyway, I see later that you basically said what I just did so, sorry for being repetitive.

 

Don't worry about it. I have lots of personal bias in regards to the Official rules. I don't agree with a whole lot of the official rulings. But as eepjr24 stated, using the Official interpretation of the rules is essential if you have any desire to write something with the intent of publication. It is also provides a common framework upon which to teach new players the rules. There is a lot of trust given a mentor to a new game system and having to unlearn some of the personal bias that makes its way into the early days of learning can be harder than learning the game system itself.

 

If it were up to me, there are parts of the Hero System I would completely gut and start over with. That is almost an entire project to explain and this is not the thread to do it in though.

[Vanguard]

 

If it were up to me, there are parts of the Hero System I would completely gut and start over with. That is almost an entire project to explain and this is not the thread to do it in though.

 

I don't think you're the only one.

 

There are a few things that I'd change and/or rework from the ground up.

 

And yeah, for training purposes and official publications, it's good to know what the those official rulings are.

 

Would toss you both likes but I ran out of them.

[eepjr24]

Would toss you both likes but I ran out of them.

I did not know that was even possible.