Drain Long-Term Endurance

[Steve]

The recent discussions on Long-Term Endurance (LTE) inspired me to do a little research on Adjustment Powers and LTE for a character build.

 

Per 6E Volume 2 (page 133), a point of LTE costs 3 Character Points for purposes of Adjustment Powers.

 

However, I find myself running into a mathematical difficulty. Consider the following two powers.

 

Drain LTE 3d6 (30 Active Points)

Drain END 1d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per 6 Hours; +2) (30 Active Points)

 

In the first power, 1-6 LTE can be drained per shot, and in the second 0-15 END can be drained that won't start returning for six hours.

 

Shouldn't these powers work about the same?

 

I'm wondering if a better conversion rate is 1:1 or maybe 2:3 instead of 1:3 for LTE. If it was 1:1, the the first power would drain 3-18 LTE, and 1-12 LTE for a 2:3 ratio.

 

I'm well aware that I can make my own house rules, but I'm curious if there's something I'm missing in the numbers.

[eepjr24]

Why would they be equivalent? Lets take your example.

 

First case, I roll max and drain 3 LTE (Endurance is halved for drains, I believe so is LTE). The player will be a MaxEND-3 for one turn, MaxEnd-2 turn 2 (assuming that they had enough REC, etc) , MaxEnd for turn 3. He still has to recover the END through normal Recovery, basically.

 

Second case, I roll max and drain 15 End for 6 hours then it all returns.

 

Lets do a third case: Drain END 3d6 (30 Active Points)

Roll max, drain 45 End. They get back 15 End after each turn, back to normal in 3 turns. 

 

None of these are close to the same effect, but they all cost the same AP. Why did you think they would have the same effect?

 

If you look at the flip side of things, with adding LTE, the advantage becomes more obvious. You can add (or heal) LTE which offsets the long term effects of exertion and can make things like encumberance, casting penalties, armor penalties and the like trivial. Personally, 3 to 1 feels about right to me, but I could see a house rule for 2 to 1 in higher fantasy type settings. But after that, why not just get rid of LTE altogether?

 

- E

[Steve]

Draining LTE and having it revert back to normal per Turn seems like a serious waste of an attack. If every two character points adjusts five END, then making it cost three character points to affect one LTE that would then recover within a Turn seems like an even bigger discrepancy.

 

Two CP per five END and then reverting back at the rate of five CP per Turn makes me think there must be an inherent slowing of the reversion rate when LTE is involved, based on the character point cost.

 

I've posted a rules question on this to Mr. Long.

[Lucius]

Draining LTE and having it revert back to normal per Turn seems like a serious waste of an attack.

 

Well, yes. You're wasting an attack because what you're doing doesn't make sense. A character doesn't HAVE "Long Term ENDurance." What a character has is ENDurance. Long Term END refers to Long Term END COST and is just saying "these lost points of END don't come back quickly." Saying you want to Drain Long Term END is like saying you want to drain the END a character just expended in an action or the BOD they just lost to an attack.

 

It seems to me, unless I'm misunderstanding something, that what you really want is to Drain END with a long Delayed Return Rate.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary points out that Draining the BOD someone just lost to an attack might actually have an impact if the target has fast Regeneration...

[eepjr24]

Well, yes. You're wasting an attack because what you're doing doesn't make sense. A character doesn't HAVE "Long Term ENDurance." What a character has is ENDurance. Long Term END refers to Long Term END COST and is just saying "these lost points of END don't come back quickly." Saying you want to Drain Long Term END is like saying you want to drain the END a character just expended in an action or the BOD they just lost to an attack.

 

It seems to me, unless I'm misunderstanding something, that what you really want is to Drain END with a long Delayed Return Rate.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary points out that Draining the BOD someone just lost to an attack might actually have an impact if the target has fast Regeneration...

I think that is true for Draining. Not so for Aiding or Healing, since you do Aiding or Healing ENDurance will not help you if you are down LTE. But healing or aiding the LTE will allow you to gain back the ENDurance.

 

I also agree with your point that either you would need to drain END with a longer return rate to simulate affecting the LTE. I can't think of a situation where I would want to use Drain or Suppress on LTE instead of just using it on the less expensive END. Aid, Absorbtion or Heal I can see. I can see making power cost LTE. I could maybe even see making UBO powers that cost LTE (users choice of whether to use the power). 

 

- E

[Steve]

While I agree that draining END with a very slow recovery rate is more straightforward, I feel there is a certain appeal to draining LTE as a way to impede opponents. Each point of lost LTE means a lower cap of available END in a combat turn before needing to burn STUN.

 

Based on the high point cost per LTE point, I could see drained LTE recovering like normal LTE losses (several recoveries per day if resting, only one if not). This gives a different feel than simply draining END because there are two possible recovery rates that could come into play. If no rest is available, they recover per day instead of every five hours. Instead of trying to simulate this with a slower recovery rate on END and a small limitation that the END recovers faster if the target is resting, just hit their LTE instead and have it recover like normal LTE losses.

[eepjr24]

While I agree that draining END with a very slow recovery rate is more straightforward, I feel there is a certain appeal to draining LTE as a way to impede opponents. Each point of lost LTE means a lower cap of available END in a combat turn before needing to burn STUN.

 

Based on the high point cost per LTE point, I could see drained LTE recovering like normal LTE losses (several recoveries per day if resting, only one if not). This gives a different feel than simply draining END because there are two possible recovery rates that could come into play. If no rest is available, they recover per day instead of every five hours. Instead of trying to simulate this with a slower recovery rate on END and a small limitation that the END recovers faster if the target is resting, just hit their LTE instead and have it recover like normal LTE losses.

I guess you can house rule it that way if you like. But there is really nothing like that (as far as I know) anywhere else in the Hero rules. It seems much simpler to me to just drain the End and lengthen the recovery. If you like, you can put a limitation on the recovery advantage: Recovers as LTE (-1/4). Then they could either heal the CP or rest to recover it. Or you could just decide on a recovery period and assign an advantage value to it then say "Recovers as per LTE rules". YMMV, but I think that the LTE cost of 3 for Adjustment Powers is primarily there for people who want ot heal or aid it.

 

- E

[Christopher]

Between the 3 big Accounted Characteristics, ENDurance is the only one the enemy can not attack.

They can cause BODY and STUN damage with a lot of different attack powers. But damaging any other atribute (inlcuding END) requires Drain.

 

LTE is even wierder.

First of all, it is a optional rule and apparently a rather new one (someone said it comes from Fantasy hero, but I might mix it up with some other rule).

Secondly it is not even a Characteristic. You only track LTE loss. And the rules regarding affecting LTE are not clearly defined.

Thirdly the sources of "damage" are more limited and in no way under attackers direct control. Normal END use over long time can cause the damage. It an also be used to simulate environmental effects (like heat, thirst, sleep deprivation per APG II). Those factors may be under indirect control of Adversaries.

Fourthly (and that makes it hard to Drain LTE) is that LTE-Loss acts like a Drain itself. It might be closer to a supress (it is pretty much persistent, except for some very specific recovery rules). Every point of LTE loss drains your END at a 1 too 1 rate.

 

In a way LTE loss is a Drain imposed by the Gamerules onto your Character. So you are basically trying to Aid someone elses Drain after it was applied onto the target already

Not sure the rules are designed for that, but of course you could add your Drain to the target. I can not remember if drains usualyl stacked (I thinkthey did, but with seperate fade rates), but in this case I would say they Drain END and LTE loss should stack.

 

I had to read up on the Healing and Adjustment Powers rules:

Healing can repair the "damage" done by a Drain. Since LTE loss operates like a Drain, Healing it makes some sense.

However if combined with Aid, it can not heal the damage incurred in the "Aided" part of the Characteristics. +10 STR Aid, -5 STR Drain could not be healed. +10 STR Aid, -20 STR Drain would allow Healing to heal the lower 10 points only, not all 20.

I can not remember any rule that says Healing can not restore Endurance. There is one that says it can not restore Endurance off a Endurance Reserve. And most GM's would naturally be carefull about a Character healing his own Endurance. But I think by RAW Healing (Endurance) is allowed.

Healing LTE loss seems to be the only reason it even has a "Cost for Adjustment Powers".

 

Aiding and Drainig LTE, that makes a whole lot less sense.

Draining/Aiding the Endurance itself still makes sense with or without LTE in the campaign.

You could of course house rule it so that a Drain/Aid targetting LTE automatically has a very low fade rate (like per day or 6 hours). Since LTE costs 15 times as much effect as normal Endurance (3 per 1 instead of 1 per 5), that should be somewhat hard to abuse.

[eepjr24]

First of all, it is a optional rule and apparently a rather new one (someone said it comes from Fantasy hero, but I might mix it up with some other rule).

It's been around since at least 4e (pg 169). I think I remember it before that, but I am on the road and don't have my older books.

[rravenwood]

LTE is even wierder.

First of all, it is a optional rule and apparently a rather new one (someone said it comes from Fantasy hero, but I might mix it up with some other rule).

 

 

Long Term Endurance dates back to 1985 and the first edition of Fantasy Hero.

[Steve]

Well, the answer is in from Mr. Long.

Affecting LTE with Adjustment powers is really ineffective, with one point of LTE gained/loss for every six points rolled on Aid/Heal/Drain.

However, having the fade rate happen in a similar time rate to recovering LTE is interesting. Aiding LTE becomes a better option than healing it.

It looks like I'll only need to house-rule the cost to something more like 2:1 (which includes the doubling effect) because 6:1 is too high for my tastes.

[bigdamnhero]

Well, yes. You're wasting an attack because what you're doing doesn't make sense. A character doesn't HAVE "Long Term ENDurance." What a character has is ENDurance. Long Term END refers to Long Term END COST and is just saying "these lost points of END don't come back quickly." Saying you want to Drain Long Term END is like saying you want to drain the END a character just expended in an action or the BOD they just lost to an attack.

 

It seems to me, unless I'm misunderstanding something, that what you really want is to Drain END with a long Delayed Return Rate.

Late to the thread, but I'm with Lucius on this. LTE isn't a separate Characteristic that can be Adjusted; its a specific way of spending/losing END that recovers more slowly than normal. In some ways it makes sense to think of LTE as a Drain END with a slow REC rate that also happens to be modified by activity level. Seems much easier to build Drain END with an Advantage (Recovers as per LTE).

[Steve]

Late to the thread, but I'm with Lucius on this. LTE isn't a separate Characteristic that can be Adjusted; its a specific way of spending/losing END that recovers more slowly than normal. In some ways it makes sense to think of LTE as a Drain END with a slow REC rate that also happens to be modified by activity level. Seems much easier to build Drain END with an Advantage (Recovers as per LTE).

 

While it's not a separate characteristic, it is noted in the rulebook as being affected by Adjustment powers. The only issue I have been having is with the price per point of LTE.

 

Yes, given what I now know, it is much easier to build an END-affecting Adjustment power with a slow recovery instead, and maybe add a limitation for Drains with recovery rates at the day level that they can be recovered per five hours with rest (maybe worth -1/4, I suppose).

[bigdamnhero]

While it's not a separate characteristic, it is noted in the rulebook as being affected by Adjustment powers.

A fair point, and one I had forgotten.