Advance Player's Guide 3. What would you like to see covered?

[Surrealone]

First:  All of the "old" supplements make reference to the 6th edition core rules, which are no longer in print or being officially supported. Rebooting the APG series would be an opportunity to update the references to the most current edition of the rules (CC/FHC).

 

Second: Rebooting the APG series would allow whomever writes it to trim the bloated examples and convoluted explanations rife within almost all of the 6th edition supplements. Derek and Michael have proven in my mind that the rules can be presented with more clearly and with fewer pages than 6th edition did.

 

Third: Rebooting the APG series would allow whomever writes it to consolidate the most popular and commonly used rules which are currently scattered across half a dozen supplements. Repackage it, and sell it to the next generation of Hero Gamers.

 

Lets be honest, many of us in the Hero Community are pretty ossified. I'd say half of the most frequent posters on this board prefer 5th edition to 6th, and some even still use 4th! Personally, I think that is okay... but the community won't grow by catering to those of us who aren't growing with the system. Frankly, the company has already made its money on us. It needs to be looking at ways to convert new players to our beloved system... to entice all of those disenfranchised Pathfinder players who are getting tired of having to search through literally thousands of pages of material to build the character they want to play, or disappointed 5th edition D&D players frustrated by their systems lack of options and versatility.

Part of what grounds a lot of people to 4e, 5e, and 5er is the 'all rules in one book' aspect of the game. It's small, portable, flexible, and easily traversed/searched. In fact, I procured 6e vol 1 & 2 and gave it to my GM as a birthday gift and he still prefers 5e to it ... because it's more easily used. I also handed him a copy of CC to see if that would move the needle on the version we use.

 

I'm willing and able to procure more books and spend more on a game I love (see above -- because 6e vol 1 & 2 books are spendy ... if you can find them) ... but I am absolutely UNWILLING to do it by buying supplement after supplement. In print, that's more stuff to lug around and dig through when I need something ... and in PDF it's having to run searches on multiple files to find something. Thus, I won't financially reward a company for intentionally fostering such usability problems. I WILL, however, financially reward a company for a new condensed 7e version that's a single hardcopy book (or a PDF, especially if it can be easily printed on demand with a minimum of hassles) encompassing CC, fixes needed for CC, APG 1 & 2 info, and even new info contemplated in APG3-like fashion.

 

The real question is -- will new players buy into it?

[steriaca]

The real question is -- will new players buy into it?

That depends on if they herd about the Hero System reputation or not. "To much math." "Takes hours to make a character." "The rules are to hard and confusing." Etc, etc, etc...

[steriaca]

The real question is -- will new players buy into it?

That depends on if they herd about the Hero System reputation or not. "To much math." "Takes hours to make a character." "The rules are to hard and confusing." Etc, etc, etc...

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think there needs to be a better animate object system; the present offerings just don't work quite right.

 

Summoned beings are already permanent. As far as I know, no where in the rules does it say they disappear when their tasks are used up, you simply lose control of them.

 

 

Here's what the rules say:

If the Summoned being ever wins the EGO Roll Versus EGO Roll Contest, the Summoner loses control of it permanently (he can no longer make rolls to control the being). It may flee, attack, return from whence it came, or do whatever else it wishes.

 

SO its going to depend on the summoned creature and the GM.  But as far as the summoner is concerned, its gone.

[Chris Goodwin]

I absolutely would not buy an "APG Complete" that consists of everything that is in APG1 and APG2 but trimmed down to match the CC/FHC verbiage reduction.  I don't see a point.  APG1 and APG2 are already perfectly usable with CC and FHC.

 

I would buy an APG3 that included new stuff like what we're talking about here.  Not in a reduced "complete" format, but in a full, 6e1/6e2 type format.  

[steriaca]

I would buy an APG 3 in whatever format (Champions Complete/Fantasy Hero Complete or 6ed), but it shouldn't be a 'lite' book. I would not buy a APG Complete, cause there is no need for it.

[Cantriped]

But as far as the summoner is concerned, its gone.

Not if it starts trying to kill the Summoner it isn't. Cinema and literature is filled with examples of "summoned" creatures choosing to turn upon their "summoner".

Mechanically speaking, few players want to waste APs giving their summoned demons EDM to return home with, which leaves using Dispel to get rid of them... or at the GM's option using the last task to "banish" them (the mechanics for that aren't clearly defined however). In the former case, there is no guarantee the summoned being will choose to use their EDM to return home once they fall out of your control. In the latter case, it costs you an action (and possibly some END/Charges) even if you write the Dispel so that it cannot fail (using standard effect on enough dice to be sure it will counter your summon).

[megaplayboy]

Summoned beings are already permanent. As far as I know, no where in the rules does it say they disappear when their tasks are used up, you simply lose control of them. The only way to make Summoned beings "poof" is to Dispel, Drain, or Suppress the power which summoned them... which becomes impossible if you add the Inherent modifier to your Summon Power.

I can think of some tweaks to the summon power that would be more in conformity with creating a servitor rather than summoning one.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Not if it starts trying to kill the Summoner it isn't. Cinema and literature is filled with examples of "summoned" creatures choosing to turn upon their "summoner".

 

Well, true, but I was thinking in terms of control and usefulness.

[Chris Goodwin]

More I'd like to see in APG3:

 

Other uses for the Resurrection Adder.  For instance...

 

• Transform, to be able to give life to nonliving objects (i.e. a statue)
• Aid, to temporarily return the dead to life
• Possession, to take over a dead body
• Duplication, to restore your dead duplicates

[dsatow]

The way that's normally handled in a superhero game is by applying an xp penalty for 1) playing out of character and 2) playing "unheroically" or against genre convention

 

The two quotes I hear most often:

1. JLA #12 (Nov. 1997) -> Batman bribes Mirror Master to betray Lex Luthor.
2. If wealth can't be used to buy things, why make it cost points?  (or more than 5 points or some such variance of contention)

[Christopher R Taylor]

I have no problem with billionaire boy offering mooks to stop fighting or join him.  Its not just funny, it makes sense.  And its up to the GM, maybe these guys have honor, or don't like heroes and would never work for him, or are afraid of what would happen to them if they quit, etc.  They aren't somehow compelled to swap sides even if they are mercenaries.  After all, if word gets around they won't stay bought, their jobs all go away.

[megaplayboy]

The two quotes I hear most often:

• JLA #12 (Nov. 1997) -> Batman bribes Mirror Master to betray Lex Luthor.
• If wealth can't be used to buy things, why make it cost points?  (or more than 5 points or some such variance of contention)

Buying things and buying people can be distinguished. Now, if you make a bribery attempt, that might persuade the mooks to let you go. Persuading them to change sides and work for you does seem a bit out there.

[Hugh Neilson]

And how well did that work out? Does Mirror Master fight crime now and not comit it just because Bats payed him once? Or is he still considered a villain?

IIRC, it reversed the side he worked for, got the heroes the location of the villains' base and MM took off afterwards. So a bit more effect than an extra 3d6 to KO an opponent and remove him from the combat.

 

Most of the time, wealth is a background perk. It does not seem fair to charge no points for wealth, but if it has no real effect, then go ahead. Tony should not get an advantage for being rich, and Peter should not be penalised for being pore. All they have to do is for there players to roleplay there wealth level.

I'll turn that around. It does not seem fair to charge points for wealth if it has no real effect, nor to charge more points than for something that would be no more effective or useful.

[mallet]

Maybe have wealthy player characters have 2-3 "unassigned" points in the Favour perk that can be spent when/if needed or desired to represent paying off a badguy mook or npc to turn sides, betray their boss, etc... Once they have spent those points they either have to pay XP to get more, or have to start "spending" their Wealth points to do it. So if they have Wealth at 15, but really need to get a bad-guy's henchmen to turn against him they would need to spend a point of Wealth (dropping them down to 14) in order to make it happen. 

 

Because I do agree that in a lot of games (that I have played or GM'd) the current Wealth system raises some issues. For example, if you have Wealth at 15 points you are a billionaire like Tony Stark, Dr. Doom, Bruce Wayne or Reed Richards. So, does a write up of Tony or Reed or Doom include 20, 50 or 100 points also spent in Bases & vehicles for all their houses, buildings, labs and car, planes, boats, spaceships, etc..? Or is it rolled into Wealth of 15? Because if it is, then Wealth is a massive point saver, but if it isn't then Wealth doesn't really do much except add flavour to the character. It becomes more of a SFX then anything actually useful in game. Poor Peter Parker eats a McDonalds, while Tony Stark eats at 5-star restaurants, but both of them still eat. Tony Stark has a massive lab to build his armor, while Peter parker built his (super amazing, sci-fi tech) webshooters in his bedroom from salvaged gear, but both of them still have advanced super technology. It becomes just color for the characters and game, not something that points should be spent on. 

 

Points should be spent of things that have tangible effects in game. In fact most of the benefits of Wealth seem to be achievable through other perks. Like Favours, Contacts, Bases, Vehicles, etc... So maybe Wealth should be dumped or reduced in cost, and instead ask the players what effect they want their wealth to have. They want to have skyscrapers and flying cars? Then put points into bases and vehicles, they want to be able to bribe people then spend points in Favours. Be able to call the mayor and get information then buy Contacts or Followers. If they just want to wear nice suits, drive fancy cars and date supermodels? No charge, as it has no in game effect.

 

Maybe Wealth should instead be bought like a Skill Enhancer such as Jack of All Trades, etc... So rather then have a vague effect, it reduces the cost of other things like Bases or Vehicles, Contacts, Followers & Favours (Well Contected already exists, and could be used and just called "Rich enough to get people to do what he wants"). Maybe this type of system could be discussed in a 3rd APG.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Persuading them to change sides and work for you does seem a bit out there. 

 

They aren't exactly serious threats, it just saves the players and characters some time.  And it only would work if the GM allows it, its a role playing thing.

[Surrealone]

They aren't exactly serious threats, it just saves the players and characters some time.  And it only would work if the GM allows it, its a role playing thing.

Precisely!

 

15pts of Money leveraged via Oratory in support of a PRE attack to get some attention ... followed by a Persuasion Roll that is complimentary to a Bribery Roll to see how effective the 'offer' was and how well received it was.  Trading could come into play instead of Money if the opposition wanted something other than cash...

 

Obviously, all of the above would need RP...

[dsatow]

Maybe Wealth should instead be bought like a Skill Enhancer such as Jack of All Trades, etc... So rather then have a vague effect, it reduces the cost of other things like Bases or Vehicles, Contacts, Followers & Favours (Well Contected already exists, and could be used and just called "Rich enough to get people to do what he wants"). Maybe this type of system could be discussed in a 3rd APG.

 

I was thinking instead of actual wealth and an income level, to treat it as lifestyle.

 

top income in world (+10)

top income in nation (+5)

upper upper class (+4)

middle upper class (+3)

lower upper class (+2)

upper middle class (+1)

middle class (default 0)

lower middle class (-1)

upper lower class (-2)

middle lower class (-3)

lower class (-4)

welfare/charity living (-5)

homeless (-10)