6th Edition Rules for previous editions

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I think you can find heroes who are smart guys, but they only make up a small part of a comic book universe.  And even among superheroes, a lot of them are just plodding tough guys, not genius types.  The super smart guys really stand out: Stark, Reed Richards, etc.

 

Incidentally, Superman being super-smart is kind of a retcon, his origins had nothing to do with that.  He just had one more power stacked on over the years... yeah he's super smart, too!  But only in stories that require him to beat a villain by being super-smart, of course.  Batman: very smart, all the time, lives by intelligence.  Superman: guy that shows smarts when the plot demands it.

[Ninja-Bear]

Hugh in Champions you don't need even inventor skill to have your own gadgets just pay the points. And technically (though no one seems to even remember) INT is Not the measure of smarts but how quickly you prosscess information. I.e. INT 8 is a smart but slow thinker.

[Netzilla]

My one contention was that some one up thread stated to the effect. Steve Long thinks DEX is valuable, therefore we should disregard his characters because thet will be DEX biased. See the error of the thinking? Especially in light of how he changed classic enemies in CKC. I may not use them but I thought they were interesting on how to change up a character but keep his concept.

If you're referring to post 142, I was simply stating that looking only at Steve Long created characters would induce bias, so we would need to look at characters from a variety of authors.

[Genma]

Sorry for this noob's intervention guys, but it seems that Steve had already answered the question regarding Speed 1 and initial segment 12:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/52715-does-speed-1-receive-action-in-initial-segment-12/

 

You all take care. I will continue with my silent reading

[Ninja-Bear]

Your DEX figures start a bit lower than published characters, not a lot. But why should the big, bulky Bricks be even 14 or 15 DEX? Why not 8 - which became the "non-heroic human average" eventually)? From 1e, though, 18 - 20 was slow and poky, but a 10 STR and INT was OK. SPD was similarly inflated - we could have had Supers start at 2 and then 6 would be blazing fast.

 

 

In early editions, no such benchmark existed. In fact, if Chris ever finds that analysis, I would bet that half or more of the characters with DEX above 30 are "normal human" martial arts and weapon master types, not superhumanly speedy characters. Reliance on DCV for Defense meant pumped up DEX.

 

 

Yup. If 1st Ed had placed Bricks at 8 - 10 DEX and 2 SPD, standard Supers at 12 - 15 DEX and 3 SPD, fast Supers at 18 DEX and 4 SPD, and WOW FAST Supers at 20 - 23 DEX and 5 - 6 SPD, standard characters would have had more points to put to abilities outside DEX, SPD and reduced END costs.

 

 

Agreed on all counts. Part of the problem was the standard for Supers being established largely in a vacuum. By the time the decision was made that "normal human max" was about 20, much less "superhuman is 31+", it was way too late to reign in the Supers. Not many 8 DEX fantasy characters out there either!

This was some of the info I was looking for in my low level Champs thread! Thanks! (I believe you might have posted something like this before).

 

I'm thinkingb of reducing agents OCV/DCV? Perhaps making skilled also 3 s and make Competent 4 ? Leave skilled at 4 and make competent 5? Should I split OCV/DCV ?

[Hugh Neilson]

Yeah I think you can find heroes who are smart guys, but they only make up a small part of a comic book universe.  And even among superheroes, a lot of them are just plodding tough guys, not genius types.  The super smart guys really stand out: Stark, Reed Richards, etc.

In Hero, those "plodding tough guys" from the comics tend to have a normal human intelligence of 8 - 10 and an Olympic Gymnast+ DEX of 18 - 23 in Hero. That DEX inflation is, to me, the most significant failure of genre emulation in Champions.

 

Incidentally, Superman being super-smart is kind of a retcon, his origins had nothing to do with that.  He just had one more power stacked on over the years... yeah he's super smart, too!  But only in stories that require him to beat a villain by being super-smart, of course.  Batman: very smart, all the time, lives by intelligence.  Superman: guy that shows smarts when the plot demands it.

He was also only "faster than a speeding bullet" in running speed, not in reflexes. And for someone with such super-reflexes, he sure gets hit a lot, until the story requires him to use his super-fast reaction tome and agility to win.

 

Hugh in Champions you don't need even inventor skill to have your own gadgets just pay the points. And technically (though no one seems to even remember) INT is Not the measure of smarts but how quickly you prosscess information. I.e. INT 8 is a smart but slow thinker.

The question was how many people in the comics are depicted as super-smart, as compared to super-agile. The fact that Hero has inflated DEX and deflated INT ("Oh, Einstein can get by with an 8 INT - he was a late bloomer, and put in long hours to develop his theories") does not change that.

 

Based on quick thinking, Reed and Tony should have very high INT. Based on perceptiveness, Wolverine and Sabretooth should have very high INT. Should either have huge INT based on possessing both traits, or should Reed and Tony have the half of INT that contributes to intellect skills (4 point skill levels rather than +5 INT) and Logan and Creed buy Enhanced PER (3 points per +1) with no bonus to INT skills, plus 3 point skill levels in Survival, Shadowing and Tracking, as they are good at those INT skills (so 6 points in total to get less than +5 points in INT would provide)?

 

How many characters in the comics ARE actually super-smart and hyper-perceptive? Maybe we should be buying limited INT virtually all of the time.

[bigdamnhero]

Incidentally, Superman being super-smart is kind of a retcon, his origins had nothing to do with that.

Wait, we're counting Silver Age stuff as retcons now? Damn we're old.

 

Sorry for this noob's intervention guys, but it seems that Steve had already answered the question regarding Speed 1 and initial segment 12:

Thanks Genma. I would've been surprised if it hadn't come up before, but I was on my phone, which makes searching the archives problematic. PS - welcome aboard, and nice way to introduce yourself via mike-drop!

[bigdamnhero]

Fantastic Four has one High INT, no one especially agile.

Tho it's worth noting everyone forgets Ben Grimm was a test pilot; they don't let morons fly million-dollar test planes, especially back in the early days. He's no one's idea of a genius, certainly not when he's standing next to Reed, but he's not nearly as thick as he lets on.

[Hugh Neilson]

I've never seen Ben Grimm as having exceptional INT, but not substandard either. I don't think he has a 23 INT, but I question why he would have a 23 DEX, if we accept each being the same level above human baseline.

[Joe Walsh]

Most supers in the comics probably have most stats within the normal human range, other than their defining stat(s). Most of their effectiveness outside of using any powers they may have is due to skill and/or equipment.

 

Of course, doing that means adjusting all the published characters' stats if you use them in your campaign. But I'm tempted to do it for my next campaign. I already keep SPD tightly controlled, so this would just be the next logical step.

[Netzilla]

Tho it's worth noting everyone forgets Ben Grimm was a test pilot; they don't let morons fly million-dollar test planes, especially back in the early days. He's no one's idea of a genius, certainly not when he's standing next to Reed, but he's not nearly as thick as he lets on.

 

And an accomplished wrestler.  The stories periodically made a point of him being quicker and more agile than most would think.  While certainly not Olympic gymnast caliber, a fair case could be made for putting him at DEX 12-15.

[Netzilla]

Most supers in the comics probably have most stats within the normal human range, other than their defining stat(s). Most of their effectiveness outside of using any powers they may have is due to skill and/or equipment.

 

Of course, doing that means adjusting all the published characters' stats if you use them in your campaign. But I'm tempted to do it for my next campaign. I already keep SPD tightly controlled, so this would just be the next logical step.

 

Eh, I do that anyway because I'm already using benchmarks and power levels outside the default (8 CV, 10 DC, 23 DEF, 10 rDEF, 4 SPD, etc).  Maybe I'm a little masochistic but I like my supers closer to street level.

[bigdamnhero]

And an accomplished wrestler.  The stories periodically made a point of him being quicker and more agile than most would think.  While certainly not Olympic gymnast caliber, a fair case could be made for putting him at DEX 12-15.

Yeah, and I'd probably put his INT in the same range. Not superhuman certainly, but "skilled" in Hero terms. If you knew someone that smart in real life, odds are they'd be one of the smartest people you know.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I tend to buy the INT up on my characters personally because I like a guy who is perceptive and has a great memory, with a quick mind.  But its almost never higher than the DEX because I like a guy to survive in combat even more -- unless the concept calls for a super genius.  

 

Ben Grimm for example; not a huge DEX, but he's not clumsy.  14 or so, I figure.  Those test pilots weren't geniuses, they were smart enough but not extraordinarily so, and in 50 years of comics, The Thing has never shown himself to have a quick mind, great memory, or exceptional perception despite those blue eyes.  So 10-12 INT at the most.

 

But Reed, he's gotta have 30 INT or better, as depicted in the comics.  And while he's no Olympian, he's really very agile, particularly with stretching.  His DEX is good, maybe 17 or 18 because of the stuff he's been shown to do.

 

Sue, on the other hand, she's never been shown to be exceptionally agile or swift, I'd probably build her at Ben's level or so, but she is quite smart and perceptive, so 16+ INT

 

Johnny is pretty agile, but not exceptionally so, 14-15 maybe.  But he's not perceptive or quick so maybe baseline INT.  If there was a wisdom score, he'd be subnormal.

 

That's how I go about it, building characters and examining them.  Spider-Man: high 20s or low 30s DEX.  The Flash, 30+.  Wolverine: low 20s.  Daredevil, same.  If a character is super perceptive but not obviously intelligent, I buy his Perception up, not his INT, because only one aspect doens't give the whole stat (like a character who always seems to act first but isn't especially athletic or agile, like Sherlock Holmes; buy lightning reflexes).

[bigdamnhero]

Most supers in the comics probably have most stats within the normal human range, other than their defining stat(s).

I agree it probably should work that way. But comics writers are just as susceptible to power creep as Champions gamers.

[bigdamnhero]

I tend to buy the INT up on my characters personally because I like a guy who is perceptive and has a great memory, with a quick mind.  But its almost never higher than the DEX because I like a guy to survive in combat even more

In previous editions, I would've agreed with you. One of my favorite things about 6ed is that it is now possible to survive in combat without a superhuman DEX.

[bigdamnhero]

Sue...is quite smart and perceptive, so 16+ INT

Modern version, absolutely. The less said about Silver Age Sue, the better.

 

[Edit: sorry for the multiple posts: multiquote wasn't working for some reason.]

[Joe Walsh]

I agree it probably should work that way. But comics writers are just as susceptible to power creep as Champions gamers.

 

Sure, the Ultimate characters being a great example. And of course every comic character actually has the stats he or she needs for the story at the moment, so it's a big problem making a character sheet to start with as we all know.

[PhilFleischmann]

I remember some characters back in the early early days of Champions that "tried" to have lower DEX, like say 17, but then they'd have maybe 5 Overall Skill Levels.  And in those days, Overall Skill Levels that you were only going to use for combat cost 10 points.  It didn't take long to realize that these characters would be better off buying fewer levels and more DEX.  So DEX crept up higher and higher, to reflect a character who was "good at combat", rather than one who was "very dexterous".

 

Re: INT and PER:  Maybe something should be done here, similar to how CV was divorced from DEX.  I tend to think there's at least some connection between INT and PER, so instead of PER being 9+(INT/5), maybe it should be 10+(INT/10).  Or it could be separated entirely from INT, and be just a flat 11-.

[Hugh Neilson]

And an accomplished wrestler.  The stories periodically made a point of him being quicker and more agile than most would think.  While certainly not Olympic gymnast caliber, a fair case could be made for putting him at DEX 12-15.

Sure. But in a typical Champions game, he would have a 20 - 23. Frankly, being quicker and more agile than most people would expect of a pile of orange rocks doesn't seem THAT quick and agile. A 13 DEX is twice as good as that "typical human" 8.

 

In previous editions, I would've agreed with you. One of my favorite things about 6ed is that it is now possible to survive in combat without a superhuman DEX.

BINGO - Ben Grimm in Champions would not have has a 23 DEX because he should be great at acrobatics and lockpicking, but because he can't compete without that 8 OCV, and starting at 4 and building it up with levels was vastly overpriced. So we accepted 23 DEX as "Supers Average" even though it went well beyond the human norm. Result: Dsaredevil needs a 29 or 33 to compete, since we know he is way more agile than Ben Grimm. And Spidey and Nightcrawler are even MORE agile!

[Hugh Neilson]

I remember some characters back in the early early days of Champions that "tried" to have lower DEX, like say 17, but then they'd have maybe 5 Overall Skill Levels.  And in those days, Overall Skill Levels that you were only going to use for combat cost 10 points.  It didn't take long to realize that these characters would be better off buying fewer levels and more DEX.  So DEX crept up higher and higher, to reflect a character who was "good at combat", rather than one who was "very dexterous".

 

Re: INT and PER:  Maybe something should be done here, similar to how CV was divorced from DEX.  I tend to think there's at least some connection between INT and PER, so instead of PER being 9+(INT/5), maybe it should be 10+(INT/10).  Or it could be separated entirely from INT, and be just a flat 11-.

So, Phil, is INT priced fairly now, or would it be priced fairly if everyone had a base 11- PER roll and had to enhance it with Enhanced PER, so INT only affected Intellect skills? If INT is worth 1 point solely to enhance INT rolls, I suggest PRE is similarly worth 1 point solely to enhance Interaction skills and rolls, so let's divorce it from PRE attacks.

 

Your DEX comments mirror my Mighty Hunter example. So I can get +1 to all PER rolls for 3 points, and +1 to one of my Survival, Tracking or Shadowing skill at a time for another three points. Or, for 5 points, I can get +1 to all PER rolls, +1 to all three of those skills at the same time and +1 to a bunch more rolls that may or may not ever come up.

 

Turns out my Mighty Hunter is the love child of Albert Einstein and Marie Curie...

[Joe Walsh]

I remember some characters back in the early early days of Champions that "tried" to have lower DEX, like say 17, but then they'd have maybe 5 Overall Skill Levels.  And in those days, Overall Skill Levels that you were only going to use for combat cost 10 points.  It didn't take long to realize that these characters would be better off buying fewer levels and more DEX.  So DEX crept up higher and higher, to reflect a character who was "good at combat", rather than one who was "very dexterous".

 

Yeah,  CP efficiency gets picked over correct modeling most of the time.

 

But why would a character need Skill Levels in order to be effective in combat if all characters are using the same standard?  I'd think martial artists would have higher DEX scores, and all else should be equal. What am I missing?

[Ninja-Bear]

Fwiw Aaron Allston in Champions SB has skilled and competent agents at 11 Dex 4 ocv/dcv. I'm using them.

[Christopher R Taylor]

That's what I put my low end agents at, 11-13 dex, 4 CV with maybe +1 with a favored weapon.

[PhilFleischmann]

So, Phil, is INT priced fairly now, or would it be priced fairly if everyone had a base 11- PER roll and had to enhance it with Enhanced PER, so INT only affected Intellect skills?

I think INT is fairly priced now.  I could see house ruling that PER is 10+(INT/10)- and it would still be close enough.  I think DEX is likely overpriced. Most of this game is combat - attack rolls and effect rolls and defenses, et al. Skill rolls and CHA rolls are less common/less useful, IME. But because of DEX's use in combat occasionally (DFC, etc.), I can try to live with DEX at 2.

 

If INT is worth 1 point solely to enhance INT rolls, I suggest PRE is similarly worth 1 point solely to enhance Interaction skills and rolls, so let's divorce it from PRE attacks.

 

Your DEX comments mirror my Mighty Hunter example. So I can get +1 to all PER rolls for 3 points, and +1 to one of my Survival, Tracking or Shadowing skill at a time for another three points. Or, for 5 points, I can get +1 to all PER rolls, +1 to all three of those skills at the same time and +1 to a bunch more rolls that may or may not ever come up.

 

Turns out my Mighty Hunter is the love child of Albert Einstein and Marie Curie...

And if my cyborg detective with artificial eye and ear implants buys +3 Sight and +3 Hearing, that costs 12 points. Or for the same 12 points, I could get +4 with Sight, Hearing, Smell/Taste, Touch, and anything else!

 

Turns out enhancing vision and hearing together causes your other senses to improve as well.