6th Edition Rules for previous editions

[Chris Goodwin]

And I bet (beer again) that if you did a survey, most people value Dex over Int unless concept says otherwise.

 

My large number of Fantasy Hero wizards with DEX 20, SPD 4 will be collecting that beer now.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Out of curiosity, what was your baseline DEX score when trying to figure those stats out? A normal human with DEX 10, or something else?

 

 

Pretty much yeah I tried to compare them to how a human would perform: this guy should be a lot faster, a zombie is slower, etc.

[Hugh Neilson]

Out of curiosity, what was your baseline DEX score when trying to figure those stats out? A normal human with DEX 10, or something else?

 

Seconded.

 

Had CV been divorced from DEX at the outset, I suspect we would have seen slow Supers have DEX below 10, not 18-20. Average Supers could get by with 10, and "a bit above" with 13. Now, those martial artists would probably have hit 18-20, and maybe even 23 for those REALLY fast Spidey/Speedster types.

 

"He's pretty average agility" has never been 8 - 10 in most character builds thanks to CV, but "he's pretty average smarts" has always been a 10. And my SuperScientist or Wizard needed DEX to get CV. Now, he doesn't, but I think a lot of us have simply grown accustomed to a 15 or 18 in Heroic and a 23 - 26 in Supers, and don't question why we're doing that. Or if we do, it's because I'm comparing my character with published characters. He's middle of the road DEX, but the villains books establish that as 23+.

[Ninja-Bear]

Hugh I agree with the divorcing of OVC from onset. One other thing would have been useful though would have been benchmarks. Remeber back in the day, you could call a character "normal" and have 33 Dex.

[Ninja-Bear]

Similarly 90%+ of published 6ed Champions characters were created under earlier editions and updated to 6ed with minimal tweaking. So all that proves is that "DEX Was God" under previous editions, which is something we already know.

Really you checked? I know a bunch CkC are different from their Classic Enemies presentation. I remeber Lazer went down in DEX and Armidillo increased his base human PD. Without looking through them though I can't say if it proves one way or another.

[Hugh Neilson]

Hugh I agree with the divorcing of OVC from onset. One other thing would have been useful though would have been benchmarks. Remeber back in the day, you could call a character "normal" and have 33 Dex.

When 1e established slow Supers had SPD 4, average was 5 and fast was 6, followed by some really fast 7 SPD characters, that set a norm that they are way faster than that "10's across the board" base normal human. Ditto slow Supers with DEX 18 - 20, average 23-26, fast 30-33. If you dropped everyone 10 - 12 points, it would have changed little. They would act in the same order, and be just as likely to hit one another. Agents would have been able to hit more reliably, I suppose.

 

I can still call a character "normal" with a 33 DEX (or an 8 DEX and 11 OCV and DCV). But now we will fight about how far above baseline one can be and still be "normal". Was Bruce Lee "normal"? Was Einstein?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Even from the start I went with around 14 as a low end hero (bricks etc) and Speed 3-6 being heroic norm.  7 broke the barrier, that was the start of real speed and when someone acted on phase 7 you knew they were blazing fast (no other speed up to that point moves on 7*, its the sign of someone truly scary fast).  

 

But the source material, yeah, they always had everyone cranked up to 11, it was crazy.  DEX 30+ should be reserved for people like the Flash, not martial arts boy.

 

 

*For some reason the new speed chart puts speed 1 moving on phase 7 instead of 12, I have no idea who thought that up.

[Ninja-Bear]

Hugh if you use Hero suggeeted benchmarks, 30 is human limit. So 33 Dex is now super human. Do I even haven to say the discaimer?

[Netzilla]

*For some reason the new speed chart puts speed 1 moving on phase 7 instead of 12, I have no idea who thought that up.

The speed 1 change happened from 4th to 5th.

[Chris Goodwin]

I could have sworn I went through Enemies 2 and 3 and did a brief "rule of X" type analysis of DEX, SPD, and other things on the characters therein.  I think most characters were in the 18-30 DEX range and 3-6 SPD range, but there was one notable weirdo with DEX 7 (seven) and SPD 8 or something like that.  I can't find the post, though.

[bigdamnhero]

And if you went with their backgrounds do you really think you could justify a higher INT than DEX?

 

A lower Dex by far than original, I grant you. Still you really think you will see INT higher than say 15 or DEX lower than 15?

Granted. Particularly in Supers, where as Christopher Taylor says, pretty much everyone's ready for a fight by definition. Less true (to some extent) in other genres: sci-fi for example tends to value INT much higher, and you can usually get away with a low DEX and a couple CSLs with Blaster.

 

But I do agree that for most characters in most action-oriented genres, DEX is generally more useful than INT. I just thought it was interesting that my players don't follow that approach as often as you might expect. (Have I mentioned lately how awesome my players are?)

 

I'm still not 100% convinced that DEX is twice as valuable as every other stat across all genres & settings. But it's not something I lose sleep over it.

 

And I bet (beer again) that if you did a survey, most people value Dex over Int unless concept says otherwise.

Probably. Tho again how much of that is historical bias? Those of us who've been playing Champions since the 80s are conditioned to regard a DEX 20 superhero as something of a sluggard, and DEX 15 is practically crippled, whereas an INT 20 character is a genius.

 

Really you checked? I know a bunch CkC are different from their Classic Enemies presentation.

Well the 90% number was pulled out of my @$$, obviously. But when the CV books came out for 6ed I remember being a little disappointed at how little the writeups had been changed since CKC, despite places where it should've made sense. (Most formerly-figured stats are still proportional to their "Primary" stat, most VPPS still have the same Pool & Control costs, etc.)

 

There's no way you can convince me that Ogre, Onslaught, Bulldozer et. al. need 20 DEXs. Heck, even characters who are supposed to be physically normal like Captain Chronos, Evil Eye, Esper and Lamplighter have the DEX of Olympic gymnasts or better. In older editions, they had to be; but it doesn't make sense anymore.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The speed 1 change happened from 4th to 5th.

 

 

Well it doesn't make a lot of sense.  Here's the sequence:

 

Phase 0 (12): everybody moves!

Phase 7: Speed 1 guy moves and nobody but speedsters does.  Ooh, he has a funky speed 2!

Phase 12: Everybody BUT speed 1 guy movies!

Phase 7: speed 1 guy moves again, finally

From then on, he moves once every 12 segments but gets a speed 2 the first turn??

 

Not in my campaign, at least.

[Netzilla]

Well it doesn't make a lot of sense.  Here's the sequence:

 

Phase 0 (12): everybody moves!

Phase 7: Speed 1 guy moves and nobody but speedsters does.  Ooh, he has a funky speed 2!

Phase 12: Everybody BUT speed 1 guy movies!

Phase 7: speed 1 guy moves again, finally

From then on, he moves once every 12 segments but gets a speed 2 the first turn??

 

Not in my campaign, at least.

 

Oh, I agree it has problems.  Heck, you didn't even touch on the issues it caused interacting with the 5e Speed Adjustment rules (something else I immediately house ruled).

[Christopher R Taylor]

All that aside, I really do think there are several things in 6th edition that people should import into their games, even if they are running older editions of the rules

[bigdamnhero]

Well it doesn't make a lot of sense.  Here's the sequence:

 

Phase 0 (12): everybody moves!

...

I don't see anywhere in the rules where it says SPD 1 characters get to go on the initial Phase 12 even tho they don't normally go on 12. AFAICT their first action is on the first Phase 7, after everyone else has gone twice.

[Chris Goodwin]

I don't see anywhere in the rules where it says SPD 1 characters get to go on the initial Phase 12 even tho they don't normally go on 12. AFAICT their first action is on the first Phase 7, after everyone else has gone twice.

 

Right... I would guess that all of the SPDs except 1 have a Phase on Segment 12 for precisely this reason.  I went back and checked 3rd edition, and SPD 1 goes on Segment 7 there.

[Ninja-Bear]

For the record I checked CC and normal, skilled and competent are the same as 5th. I have yet to check the 3 heroes and 2 villains that I have 5th ed write ups.

[Hugh Neilson]

Even from the start I went with around 14 as a low end hero (bricks etc) and Speed 3-6 being heroic norm.  7 broke the barrier, that was the start of real speed and when someone acted on phase 7 you knew they were blazing fast (no other speed up to that point moves on 7*, its the sign of someone truly scary fast).  

 

But the source material, yeah, they always had everyone cranked up to 11, it was crazy.  DEX 30+ should be reserved for people like the Flash, not martial arts boy.

Your DEX figures start a bit lower than published characters, not a lot. But why should the big, bulky Bricks be even 14 or 15 DEX? Why not 8 - which became the "non-heroic human average" eventually)? From 1e, though, 18 - 20 was slow and poky, but a 10 STR and INT was OK. SPD was similarly inflated - we could have had Supers start at 2 and then 6 would be blazing fast.

 

Hugh if you use Hero suggeeted benchmarks, 30 is human limit. So 33 Dex is now super human. Do I even haven to say the discaimer?

In early editions, no such benchmark existed. In fact, if Chris ever finds that analysis, I would bet that half or more of the characters with DEX above 30 are "normal human" martial arts and weapon master types, not superhumanly speedy characters. Reliance on DCV for Defense meant pumped up DEX. 

 

Tho again how much of that is historical bias? Those of us who've been playing Champions since the 80s are conditioned to regard a DEX 20 superhero as something of a sluggard, and DEX 15 is practically crippled, whereas an INT 20 character is a genius.

Yup. If 1st Ed had placed Bricks at 8 - 10 DEX and 2 SPD, standard Supers at 12 - 15 DEX and 3 SPD, fast Supers at 18 DEX and 4 SPD, and WOW FAST Supers at 20 - 23 DEX and 5 - 6 SPD, standard characters would have had more points to put to abilities outside DEX, SPD and reduced END costs.

 

But when the CV books came out for 6ed I remember being a little disappointed at how little the writeups had been changed since CKC, despite places where it should've made sense. (Most formerly-figured stats are still proportional to their "Primary" stat, most VPPS still have the same Pool & Control costs, etc.)

 

There's no way you can convince me that Ogre, Onslaught, Bulldozer et. al. need 20 DEXs. Heck, even characters who are supposed to be physically normal like Captain Chronos, Evil Eye, Esper and Lamplighter have the DEX of Olympic gymnasts or better. In older editions, they had to be; but it doesn't make sense anymore.

Agreed on all counts. Part of the problem was the standard for Supers being established largely in a vacuum. By the time the decision was made that "normal human max" was about 20, much less "superhuman is 31+", it was way too late to reign in the Supers. Not many 8 DEX fantasy characters out there either!

[Ninja-Bear]

My one contention was that some one up thread stated to the effect. Steve Long thinks DEX is valuable, therefore we should disregard his characters because thet will be DEX biased. See the error of the thinking? Especially in light of how he changed classic enemies in CKC. I may not use them but I thought they were interesting on how to change up a character but keep his concept.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I don't see anywhere in the rules where it says SPD 1 characters get to go on the initial Phase 12 even tho they don't normally go on 12

 

 

I do (6e book 2, page 18, emphasis mine):

 

Unless the GM rules otherwise, combat always begins on Segment 12. This gives everyone a chance to act and then take a Post-Segment 12 Recovery (see 6E2 129).

 

 

This right after the chart that shows Speed 1 characters acting on phase 7.  That's always been the hero rules: everybody goes free on the first phase, then the speed chart starts up.

 

Which is why I don't start on "segment 12." I start either at segment "0" a mythical pre-combat phase and you don't get a free post-12 recovery; or I roll a d12 and everyone starts combat on that phase, some not able to act immediately. 

 

Speed 1 characters should move on 12, and that's it; the phase everybody goes on.  If you look at the chart, you can see the logical progression: the faster you get, the more the phases start toward segment 1, not the other way around.

[bigdamnhero]

Yup. If 1st Ed had placed Bricks at 8 - 10 DEX and 2 SPD, standard Supers at 12 - 15 DEX and 3 SPD, fast Supers at 18 DEX and 4 SPD, and WOW FAST Supers at 20 - 23 DEX and 5 - 6 SPD, standard characters would have had more points to put to abilities outside DEX, SPD and reduced END costs.

As a wise man psychotic villain once said: "When everyone is super, no one is."

 

My one contention was that some one up thread stated to the effect. Steve Long thinks DEX is valuable, therefore we should disregard his characters because thet will be DEX biased.

Not sure what post you're referring to, but what I was trying to say is:

• Prior to 6ed, DEX was God and everyone knew it. This was understandably reflected in the published characters.
• With 6ed, DEX is no longer the God stat. (Not saying it isn't still important.)
• With the 6ed published characters, they had a chance to undo 20+ years of DEX inflation. But - for whatever reason - Steve & Co. did not do so.
• Yes it's possible this was a deliberate choice and Steve still thinks every big dumb brick needs to have 20 DEX. (If so, fine, but I still disagree).
• But given how many other changes Steve didn't make to published characters - varying OCV from DCV, let alone from DEX; varying the Pools and Controls for VPPs; adding Striking Appearance to even one single character in CV1; all things Steve felt were important enough to change the rules over - I suspect the answer is something closer to "We were in a rush."
• (To be clear, this isn't even really a criticism - just an observation.)
• Even then, I'm not saying "disregard his characters." I'm saying: for purposes of this conversation, I think the fact that DEX is still so heavily inflated in published character is mainly due to inertia rather than deliberate design.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I think it was mostly "rewiting all this stuff would take ages" (believe me, I know) and they did minimal rebuilding into the new edition.  That said, I still think DEX is going to outrank INT on average across the board in a comic book universe.  There are more "olympic level athletes" than "genius level schmart guys" in comic book universes.

[bigdamnhero]

I do (6e book 2, page 18, emphasis mine):

I did see that. But without your added emphasis, it doesn't to me imply "even if they normally wouldn't get to act." Especially given how [ahem] thorough Steve tends to be in his verbiage, if that's what he intended I would've expected him to add something like "This gives everyone a chance to act (even SPD 1 characters)...." Or have an asterisk on the SPD Chart saying "SPD 1 characters get to act on the initial Phase 12." Or something. Seems more likely that the verbiage got carried over from previous editions and Steve either didn't see the implied contradiction or assumed the answer was obvious.

 

Sounds like a reasonable Ask Steve question. Tho I can't remember the last time I had a SPD 1 character on the table.

 

Which is why I don't start on "segment 12." I start either at segment "0" a mythical pre-combat phase and you don't get a free post-12 recovery.

[nod] Which is a decent house rule that I have used myself in some games; I find that sometimes makes it easier to explain to newbies.

 

...or I roll a d12 and everyone starts combat on that phase, some not able to act immediately. .

Huh. Now there's an idea I hadn't thought of. I'd probably cop out and have one of the players roll the d12 so they can take the blame. But it's an interesting concept. How does it change combat in your experience?

[Hugh Neilson]

The "SPD 1 on Ph 12" debate might attract my attention if anyone produced a single example of a SPD 1 character ever published for Hero. Maybe Steve didn't think about it because there has never, ever been any reason to.

 

Yeah I think it was mostly "rewiting all this stuff would take ages" (believe me, I know) and they did minimal rebuilding into the new edition.  That said, I still think DEX is going to outrank INT on average across the board in a comic book universe.  There are more "olympic level athletes" than "genius level schmart guys" in comic book universes.

Really? Aren't an awful lot of comic book Supers also scientists? Let's see:

 

- Superman is a super-smart alien;

- so is J'onn J'onnzz;

- Bats should have multiple PhDs in criminology and forensic science, builds his own gear and is highly perceptive as World's Greatest Detective;

- Flash is a forensic scientist;

- Green Arrow builds all his own gadgets (even after loss of his fortune);

- Atom is a scientist

 

- No indication Wonder Woman is hyper-intelligent, or that she is not smarter than many around her;

- Green Lantern is a pilot;

- no special skills for Aquaman;

 

 

- Superman, Flash and Wonder Woman have various types of "super speed";

- Bats is incredibly agile

- GA seems pretty agile

- I'll give you GL as a pilot, although that's debatable

 

Still leaves

- Aquaman, Atom and J'onn as having no special agility in the comics.

 

Looks like JLA is even for "high INT/High DEX".

 

Fantastic Four has one High INT, no one especially agile.

 

X-Men (original) have the Beast, who is both, Angel, who is agile, and Prof X who is smart.

 

Avengers have Iron Man (smart) and Giant-Man (smart). Who are the agile ones? Cap, I guess, when he comes along. Quicksilver and Hawkeye, I guess (Hawkeye builds his own superscience arrows, though, even when he's a carny attacking Iron Man).

 

I'm not sure the source material supports the assertion that agility is a lot more common than brainpower.

[bigdamnhero]

High-agility is probably more common than high-intelligence among villains, where we tend to see 10 dull-witted thugs to every 1 world-conquering genius.