6th Edition Rules for previous editions

[Christopher R Taylor]

I just wanted a thread that helped people using other editions to know what good ideas they could borrow from the new edition, really.

[steriaca]

I just wanted a thread that helped people using other editions to know what good ideas they could borrow from the new edition, really.

And opened a can o'worms.

[Ninja-Bear]

Try telling that to a Republican...

Im listening..... go ahead.

[assault]

As a GM I REALLY want my players to have a bunch of KSs, PSs, SS, CK, AKs etc. They are pretty darned expensive to buy more than one. esp since many will never be used by a PC.

 

I have to say I am supremely uninterested in PCs having a bunch of stuff that they will never use. (As GM or player.)

 

Or, at least, the appropriate cost for this is 0 points.

 

Things that are used once and never again should be worth 0 points too in most cases.

[steriaca]

I have to say I am supremely uninterested in PCs having a bunch of stuff that they will never use. (As GM or player.)

 

Or, at least, the appropriate cost for this is 0 points.

 

Things that are used once and never again should be worth 0 points too in most cases.

How does one tell if something will be used once or not at all. What if you, as the GM, made this skill cost zero, then end up using the skill more than once?

[assault]

How does one tell if something will be used once or not at all. What if you, as the GM, made this skill cost zero, then end up using the skill more than once?

 

One or more of the following:

Shrug and ignore.

Stop running scenarios where it is necessary.

Make them pay for it (possibly through bonus experience points).

 

The most likely situation when this would arise would be during a sandbox-ish game, when I would have less problems with buying big skill lists in the first place.

[Jagged]

In a previous campaign I gave away specific bonus XP to learn Gal 5 to those players that had specifically made the effort to communicate.

 

So I have always been comfortable with give free now, pay later approach.

[Ninja-Bear]

Fwie, I know some longtime (3rd ed) players that did not like the dispel rule of Elemental Controls in fifth ed.

[Hugh Neilson]

I have to say I am supremely uninterested in PCs having a bunch of stuff that they will never use. (As GM or player.)

 

Or, at least, the appropriate cost for this is 0 points.

 

Things that are used once and never again should be worth 0 points too in most cases.

 

 

How does one tell if something will be used once or not at all. What if you, as the GM, made this skill cost zero, then end up using the skill more than once?

As the GM, the onus is on me to either tell the player "that's just not going to come up often enough to be worth paying for - it's background like having red hair or green eyes. You don't have to pay for it" or, if I let the player pay the points for it, to design my game such that the skill does come up with enough frequency that it was worth paying points for it. When a player puts an ability, a complication, whatever on a character sheet, to me that means "this is something I want to come up in the game". As GM, it's my job to ensure it does. If I don't feel confident I can do that, then it should not be worth points.

 

Being a GM carries great power, and with great power comes great responsibility.

[Scott Ruggels]

I am most familiar with 3rd, and 4th ed.  I have a copy of 5th ed in storage, but all this talk is making me scared.

[Ninja-Bear]

Well said Hugh!

[Ninja-Bear]

I am most familiar with 3rd, and 4th ed. I have a copy of 5th ed in storage, but all this talk is making me scared.

Why?

[PhilFleischmann]

Looks like this fire has died down, but never fear - I found another can of gasoline!

 

What I want to know is why DEX and EGO still cost 2 points even though they no longer contribute to CV and MCV?

 

Seems to me, I'm better off selling my DEX down to 5 and using the 10 points for +2 with all DEX Rolls.  Thus I get higher DEX rolls than just having 10 DEX.

 

And for EGO, it seems I'm better off selling my EGO down to 5 and buying 10 points of Mental Def.

 

Am I missing something?

[Doc Democracy]

I don't think you are missing much. Steve took a big step down the path of losing characteristics completely. You see the issues he had doing that but I think that characteristics are anathema to the underlying ideology of HERO and there very existence introduces a skewing factor to powers etc.

 

The biggest issue is that not all characteristics are the same. Some are counters, like END and STUN. Some are skill enhancers, like DEX and STR. Some allow interaction with the game like OCV. Some are a mix.

 

If you extract the counters and interactors, then everything else can be covered by skills and powers. Potentially everything can be done bar a couple of numbers - the counters would become more power like and the interactors more skilll like.

 

A clever character sheet would remove the dissonance of no characteristics. The clarity gain within the system would be worth it, no longer having to balance energy blast with strength damage for example which has been a huge balance issue through every edition after first, weakening the key principle of 5pts equals 1 DC.

 

 

 

Doc

[bigdamnhero]

What I want to know is why DEX and EGO still cost 2 points even though they no longer contribute to CV and MCV?

EGO costs 1 for 1 in 6ed; only DEX costs 2 for 1.

 

For DEX, as I understand it Steve felt that going earlier in initiative (or being able to Hold an Action) was a significant advantage, combined with the fact that there are so many DEX skills that get used heavily in combat, that it justified the double cost. [shrug] Not sure I agree, but it's a fair argument. And remember DEX used to cost 3 for 1, so its price was reduced.

[PhilFleischmann]

EGO costs 1 for 1 in 6ed; only DEX costs 2 for 1.

 

For DEX, as I understand it Steve felt that going earlier in initiative (or being able to Hold an Action) was a significant advantage, combined with the fact that there are so many DEX skills that get used heavily in combat, that it justified the double cost. [shrug] Not sure I agree, but it's a fair argument. And remember DEX used to cost 3 for 1, so its price was reduced.

Well, if EGO only costs 1, that's half the problem solved.      But it still seems that you're better off with 5 EGO and 5 Mental Defense than with 10 EGO - even if you're a mentalist.

 

How much does a Skill Level with All DEX-Based Skills cost?  Does it cost the same as a Skill Level with All INT-Based Skills?  And PRE-Based Skills?

 

Or how 'bout All DEX-Rolls, with or without a Skill?

 

Is Abort still available in 6th?  And Holding is, since you mentioned it.  Is there something in 6th that makes going earlier in the phase more important than it was in previous editions?

 

And if you want a character who can do all kinds of amazing dexterous things, best to sell down your DEX and by DEX-Skill Levels instead.

 

It took me a long time to buy into the idea of dropping figured characteristics, but I'm willing to do it.  As I always said, "The Devil's in the details".  This particular detail looks totally wrong to me.

 

-----

 

But if it's any consolation, I completely agree with almost all of the other changes that I know about:  No more EC's, fewer Complications, etc.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Ego rolls aren't used much specifically in the rules, but they certainly are used.  I use them all the time for people struggling against their nature or to deal with something they don't like.  Psychological Complications require ego rolls.  Escaping from mental attacks like illusions and control are both ego rolls.  You can use your Ego against presence attacks if you wish.  Some even use ego rather than DEX for who goes first in mental combat.

 

So, 5 Ego would kinda suck for a mentalist.

 

Who moves in combat first is kind of self explanatory, its why stuff like Lightning Reflexes exists at all.  Going first = winning many times.

[Cantriped]

EGO Rolls are also used for controlling (or maintaining control of) Summoned beings.

[Netzilla]

BTW,the cost of Skill Levels is higher for DEX-based skills than for other types. All skill levels were repriced with 6e.

[PhilFleischmann]

Ego rolls aren't used much specifically in the rules, but they certainly are used.  I use them all the time for people struggling against their nature or to deal with something they don't like.  Psychological Complications require ego rolls.  Escaping from mental attacks like illusions and control are both ego rolls.  You can use your Ego against presence attacks if you wish.  Some even use ego rather than DEX for who goes first in mental combat.

 

So, 5 Ego would kinda suck for a mentalist.

How so?  A mentalist can buy all the OMCV & DMCV he wants - completely separate from EGO.  Then he can buy Mental Defense - which works even better than EGO to defend against Mental Powers.  Like you said, EGO rolls aren't made that often.  If you don't need to control Summoned creatures, what else do you need EGO for that's worth more than buying more MDef?  (And I'd assume you can buy Skill Levels for controlling the beings you Summoned - for less than the cost of +5 EGO.)

 

Who moves in combat first is kind of self explanatory, its why stuff like Lightning Reflexes exists at all.  Going first = winning many times.

Yes, being able to go earlier in a phase is useful, but is it 2-points useful?  Especially compared to STR, which gives you lifting and HtH damage, for half the cost.

 

BTW,the cost of Skill Levels is higher for DEX-based skills than for other types. All skill levels were repriced with 6e.

Well, that's good to know.  This is the kind of stuff I'm interested in - this is what I was looking for when I said, "Am I missing something?"

 

With EGO at only 1-point, it's not too bad, I guess.  The GM should just make sure that EGO is actually useful for something.

 

The bottom line is, all other things being equal, are these builds balanced with each other:

 

a) 30 DEX (40 points)

 

b ) 10 DEX + 40 points worth of Skill Levels with DEX-Rolls. (40 points)

 

c) 10 DEX + 30 points worth of Skill Levels with DEX-Rolls + 10 points worth of Lightning Reflexes.  (40 Points)

 

And are these builds balanced with each other:

 

d) 30 EGO (20 points)

 

e) 10 EGO + 20 points worth of Mental Defense (20 points)

 

I can see how d and e are probably close enough.  But the difference between a, b, and c worries me.

[Netzilla]

Ego rolls are also used to breakout of various mental powers, which MD does not. That's one reason why a mentalist would want Ego rather than just MD. Additionally, mental power init order is based on Ego rather than Dex (might be an optional rule).

 

As for skill levels, keep in mind that they only apply to one thing at a time, so if you find yourself doing multiple things at once (like driving while using fast draw to reload your gun), you'll definitely be better off with a higher raw stat.

 

As for be price of Dex, during the 6e rules debate, the discussion that I recall centered more around whether or not Int should also be 2 per since Int providing PER Roll could be counted as equivalent to the Dex init bonus.

[Hugh Neilson]

Looks like this fire has died down, but never fear - I found another can of gasoline!

 

What I want to know is why DEX and EGO still cost 2 points even though they no longer contribute to CV and MCV?

 

Seems to me, I'm better off selling my DEX down to 5 and using the 10 points for +2 with all DEX Rolls.  Thus I get higher DEX rolls than just having 10 DEX.

 

And for EGO, it seems I'm better off selling my EGO down to 5 and buying 10 points of Mental Def.

 

Am I missing something?

Initiative and Ego Rolls. And Ego costs 1 point in 6e, not 2.

 

My initial thought was that DEX should fall to 1 point, but the more I consider it, the more I think INT and PRE should have been bumped to 2 points.

 

That would leave three stats, each with significant skills linked to them, and a second function. That would allow some other repricing.

 

5 points, +1 to all skill rolls based on one of the three stats (all at the same time, so you can drive and reload your gun). For INT, this excludes perception-based rolls. For 3 points, any one roll, but only one at a time.

 

Each stat has a second function.

 

So, for INT, you can buy +1 to all PER rolls for 5 points (not the present 3 points), +1 for one sense group rises to 3 points, and a single sense (like a single skill) costs 2 points.

 

For DEX, +5 Initiative costs 5 points, with further reductions a la the present Lightning Reflexes/

 

For PRE, +1d6 PRE attack costs 5 points.

 

And EGO gets PRE Defense. For 5 points, you get +10 PRE DEF, and for 5 points, you get +2 to EGO rolls (EGO staying at 1 point cost).

[PhilFleischmann]

i am satisfied with the cost of EGO.  Thank you all for the clarification.

 

But DEX still seems overpriced.  It's not enough to simply point out a bunch of different things that a characteristic gives you.  It's a matter of how useful in-game those things are - and in particular how useful they are compared with other characteristics (and powers and skill levels, etc.)

 

Going earlier in the phase and improved DEX rolls for 2 points compared to extra lifting, HtH damage, and throwing and ranged damage with throwing, for 1 point.

 

"Look at my fancy acrobatics!  Watch me climb!  How about some contortion or sleight of hand?" pretty much pales in comparison to "HULK SMASH PUNY HUMAN!"

[Ninja-Bear]

Hulk cant smash what Hulk can't hit!

[steriaca]

Hulk cant smash what Hulk can't hit!

Which is currently because of a high DCV value. Not necessary a higher than normal DEX these days.