Create Pit Trap

[Doc Democracy]

I guess it comes down to what you want the game effect to be and how you intend to use it. I am 100% in the Entangle camp. I want to trap my opponent. I want to do this by making him fall into a pit I suddenly create under his or her feet. I will make allowances for flying/floating opponents by limiting the power such that it cannot be used against such targets. I will have a triggered attack for a target that gets entangled and fails to make a relevant Dex/breakfall roll. I will also limit it by saying it fails against anyone able to reasonably escape from a 4m deep pit.

 

I am not using odd constructs such as using a movement power as an attack, something that should always have a big red STOP sign next to it....IMHO of course.

 

I do it this way because I want a particular game effect. It seems strange to me that we can accept a block of stone being created to surround an opponent, stopping movement, restricting sight etc but cannot accept that same opponent being dropped into a pit, stopping movement, restricting sight etc...

 

Doc

[Lucius]

I guess it comes down to what you want the game effect to be and how you intend to use it. I am 100% in the Entangle camp. I want to trap my opponent. I want to do this by making him fall into a pit I suddenly create under his or her feet. I will make allowances for flying/floating opponents by limiting the power such that it cannot be used against such targets. I will have a triggered attack for a target that gets entangled and fails to make a relevant Dex/breakfall roll. I will also limit it by saying it fails against anyone able to reasonably escape from a 4m deep pit.

 

I am not using odd constructs such as using a movement power as an attack, something that should always have a big red STOP sign next to it....IMHO of course.

 

I do it this way because I want a particular game effect. It seems strange to me that we can accept a block of stone being created to surround an opponent, stopping movement, restricting sight etc but cannot accept that same opponent being dropped into a pit, stopping movement, restricting sight etc...

 

Doc

To pick just one objection, an entangled character can still be targeted by someone with a ranged attack standing 30 meters away (though they'd be hitting the stone block first if that's what you used.) The character in the pit can't.

 

The only way I see to do this that isn't problematic in some way is attacking the ground itself to create a hole, and that gets too expensive for the effect, so it's STILL problematic.

 

If we use Tunneling, Usable as Attack (so the character using the Power isn't moving) Area Effect (to target a spot on the ground not a character) I think we come as close as possible to the described effect. Someone standing there doesn't fall automatically (they'd have to miss a DEX roll,) have no problem if they can fly, can take falling damage, can mitigate that with Breakfall, can escape with Leap or Climb, there are no bizarre and inappropriate effects like "Gee, I can still move just a lot slower, does that mean I'm in the pit or out of the pit?" etc. etc.

 

I've been accused of liking to pile on the Modfiers on Power constructs, but I think other than Tunneling, Usable as Attack, Area Effect, and the prohibitively expensive route of a Drain BOD or Killing Attack on the ground itself, any other approach will involve enough layered on mofidifiers and/or handwaving to account for everything inherent in the described situation to give even me a headache.

 

Except, maybe, Barrier. I haven't explored the idea enough yet, but I concede that there MIGHT be a way to make Barrier work for this. Or maybe it would just be beating our heads against a wall.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I bet it would give the palindromedary TWO headaches.

[Lucius]

One last stab at a way to do this, on the assumption that no one can object to putting terrain features like pit traps in one's own Base and that 10 pts in a base should cover it (or leave it uncovered perhaps I should say) -

 

Instant Oubliette: (Total: 5 Active Cost, 2 Real Cost) Summon 10-point Base, Ranged (+1/2), Slavishly Devoted (+1) (5 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; See notes; -1), Incantations ("Watch out for that pit!"; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2)

 

Makes a hole, going down. Whether it leads to the next floor down in a building, to the sewer, or just to a dead end oubliette, depends on circumstance and not the character's own choice.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks that may be paying too little for the effect

[Cantriped]

I understand what you're saying with usable as an attack but I have a couple concerns.

Bear in mind the Tunneling power I built cores out a tunnel 8m long in any direction through solid stone. Meaning that besides making pits or trenches, you could bypass an entire corkscrew dungeon, or end a siege with one casting. If you drop the Dug PD to 1 (Dirt), the cost drops to 35 APs, 20 RPs.

 

One last stab at a way to do this, on the assumption that one can object to putting terrain features like pit traps in one's own Base and that 10 pts in a base should cover it (or leave it uncovered perhaps I should say) -

 

Instant Oubliette: (Total: 5 Active Cost, 2 Real Cost) Summon 10-point Base, Ranged (+1/2), Slavishly Devoted (+1) (5 Active Points); No Conscious Control (Only Effects cannot be controlled; See notes; -1), Incantations ("Watch out for that pit!"; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2)

 

Makes a hole, going down. Whether it leads to the next floor down in a building, to the sewer, or just to a dead end oubliette, depends on circumstance and not the character's own choice.

Summoning Bases is right up there with UAA Tunneling in terms of "Stop-Sign"edness, and I have mixed feelings about the idea of someone trying to Summon a Base inside of another Base to modify the terrain of a Base they didn't pay for.

I most often see Summon Base used to create buildings in empty air (ala Magic Hut style spells), I'm not sure if it should be used to replace existing Terrain. I would also worry somewhat about people trying to use it as a cheap alternative to Barrier.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Bear in mind the Tunneling power I built cores out a tunnel 8m long in any direction through solid stone.

 

 

Yeah but you can do that with tunneling anyway, and not pay 80+ points for it.

[Cantriped]

You're only paying 48 points, not "80+", instead of the 24 points that level of Tunneling would have cost normally. If you put it in a Multipower reserve (something you don't normally want to do with Movement Powers, but commonly do with Attack powers) that drops to ~5 points (assuming you would have bought a Multipower anyway). There are also the tactical advantages of being able to create a tunnel from hundreds of meters away (or at least behind the party Brick/Tank), instead of having to be "all up in it" (and therefore in melee range of angry dungeon denizens when you exit the tunnel).

[Durzan Malakim]

Usable As Attack makes Tunneling into an Attack Power, which then allows it to legally take modifiers such as Area of Effect, Ranged or Indirect, and you do not necessarily have to target a person, you can target an object (such as a pebble or air molecule) via UAA Tunneling and force it to create a tunnel for the intended victim to fall into, and use Area of Effect (Radius) to define the size of the tunnel by forcing all of the air molecules in the radius to tunnel.

Regardless, Indirect isn't necessary, because the path of the attack is not linked to the direction you force them to tunnel. You can be the origin point for the attack, and have it's path be directly towards the target (the default set up), yet still have the target tunnel directly downwards.

 

Create Tunnel:  ​Tunneling 8m (8 PD), Area of Effect (2m Radius, Selective; +1/2), Usable As Attack (Standard Range, Recipient Can Go Anywhere; +2) (84 APs); Instant (-1/2), No Noncombat Movement (-1/4). Total Cost:  48 points.

Note:  This power can create an 8m long, 4m wide Tunnel in any direction. This version of the power allows the user to select whether any given character within the area is moved by the power. By default it would simply target all of the air/dust molecules in the area, or all of the molecules on the surface of the body to be tunneled into, forcing them to create a tunnel 4m wide which an enemy might then fall into. Technically this would require an almost infinite number of attack rolls, but with a minimum of a 64% hit rate, you can speed up play by simply assuming enough air/dust/surface molecules are affected to create a tunnel of the appropriate size. However you could also target a character with this power, in which case they would move with the tunnel (and therefore would not take falling damage if said tunnel went straight down). To make a version which cannot target characters/objects, or which only tunnels in a specific direction (such as downward) apply the appropriate Limited Power modifier.

 

To me this is an example of designing to the special effect rather than the game effect. I feel that using the game rules for environmental effects such as falling damage, line of sight penalties, and movement restrictions circumvents the core design philosophy of creating powers based on their game effects. It also makes it harder to balance with other powers since you haven't specified how much damage, sight restriction, and movement restriction the pit causes.

 

Suppose the pit trap included an enclosed vacuum bubble inside it. Would you allow a Change Environment power to create the vacuum and then use the game rules for suffocation to cause damage and the physics of there being no air to also cause darkness to sound? To me those are a NND attack and darkness.

 

In my opinion the game effects to model are:

• Hit the target either with an attack roll versus the target hex or failed DEX roll. Add limitations about size and alternate movement modes. SFX: Target tries to avoid falling into the pit.
• Triggered normal damage. SFX: Falling into the pit.
• Triggered restriction to run movement either by entangle or suppress. SFX: Being at the bottom of a pit.
• Triggered darkness to normal sight or entangle blocks normal sight. SFX: Being at the bottom of a pit.

[Christopher R Taylor]

You're only paying 48 points, not "80+", instead of the 24 points that level of Tunneling would have cost normally. If you put it in a Multipower reserve

 

 

Its still an active cap buster for a little effect.  And seriously, you can always come up with ways to bring down real point cost if you munchkin hard enough, that doesn't make the build a good one.  You spent almost 100 points to dig a hole.  Doesn't that strike you as excessive?

[Cantriped]

 

To me this is an example of designing to the special effect rather than the game effect.

Except that it isn't... creating a pit is an actual effect, like taking damage, or flying. It could have any number of special effects assigned to it, like "Earth Magic". There are good reasons why my power doesn't need to define amounts of damage, or LoS restrictions, or movement restrictions, most of which I've already explained and you've chosen to ignore.

 

Suppose the pit trap included an enclosed vacuum bubble inside it. Would you allow a Change Environment power to create the vacuum and then use the game rules for suffocation to cause damage and the physics of there being no air to also cause darkness to sound? To me those are a NND attack and darkness.

You know there is a Change Environment effect for causing Suffocation right? If the special effect of said power was "Creating A Vacuum" instead of say, "Clogging Their Lungs With Magically Conjured Cotton Candy", I would link it to Darkness to Sound as a Compound Power. I wouldn't use an NND Blast, the best reason being that the rules for suffocation involve spending END, then STUN, and finally BODY every phase until you die, whereas an NND Blast only causes STUN (or possibly STUN & BODY if you spend enough points), and only on your phases, not theirs.

 

Its still an active cap buster for a little effect.  And seriously, you can always come up with ways to bring down real point cost if you munchkin hard enough, that doesn't make the build a good one.  You spent almost 100 points to dig a hole.  Doesn't that strike you as excessive?

I spent 48 points... not, "almost 100 points". However I do agree it's an Active Cap Buster... but to be fair most of the powers that can potentially destroy a campaign are. An Area of Effect Line RKA capable of blasting a 4m wide and 8m long hole through solid stone costs ~150 APs. So no, it doesn't strike me as excessive.

 

And honestly, I didn't exactly go out of my way to munchkin the cost down. I only applied two modifiers, both of which were appropriate to how the power is generally going to be used. If I apply some common munchkiny spell-modifiers: OAF (Magic Shovel; -1), Gestures (Both Hands; -1/2), Incantations ("Get Er'Dug!"; -1/4)... the cost goes down to 24 points (or 2 points in a Multipower).

[Christopher R Taylor]

All I can say is we have played very different games if you think digging a hole in the ground is a campaign destroyer.

[Cantriped]

All I can say is we have played very different games if you think digging a hole in the ground is a campaign destroyer.

"digging a hole in the ground" is a pretty massive understatement. Being able to bypass obstacles like a 20 foot thick castle wall can have pretty significant impact on an adventure, such as being able to bypass dozens of encounters with castle guards on your way to rob the king blind, or lead an orcish army right through a passage the defenders don't know exists...

 

[Durzan Malakim]

Here's another version of Pit Trap that uses Entangle.

 

Pit Trap (created by a sufficiently advanced technology indistinguishable from magic):(Total: 75 Active Cost, 32 Real Cost) Blast 2d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (1m Radius; +1/2) (15 Active Points); Conditional Power Power does not work in Uncommon Circumstances (Does not affect flying targets; -1/4), Conditional Power Power does not work in Uncommon Circumstances (Does not affect targets too big to fall into a 2m wide pit; -1/4), Conditional Power Power does not work in Uncommon Circumstances (Pit must be conjured on horizontal surface. Normal gravity must be present for target to fall into pit.; -1/4) (Real Cost: 8) 
PLUS
Entangle 5d6, 5 PD/5 ED (standard effect: 5 BODY, 5 PD/5 ED) (Stops A Given Sense Group Sight Group) (60 Active Points); Conditional Power Power does not work in Common Circumstances (Only prevents run movement; -1/2), Linked (Conjure pit from extradimensional space; -1/4), Conditional Power Power does not work in Uncommon Circumstances (Does not affect flying targets; -1/4), Conditional Power Power does not work in Uncommon Circumstances (Does not affect targets too big to fall into a 2m wide pit; -1/4), Can Be Dispelled (-1/4) (Real Cost: 24)

Notes: The caster conjures a 2m wide and 4m deep portal to an extradimensional space. The pit is made from exotic material that can be damaged. Reducing the pit to zero body dispels it and returns the target to their prior position in normal space. The surface on which the pit is summoned remains undamaged and returns to its normal state after the entangle is broken or dispelled. Damage is from falling into a 2m wide x 4m deep pit trap. See 6E2 pg 140: "Short Falls (20m or less): A character who falls 20m or less takes 1d6 damage per full 2m fallen. For example, a character falling off a four-story building 16m high would take 8d6 Normal Damage."

[bigdamnhero]

On an unrelated note. I've said this many, many times before, but you do not have to buy Additional Mass when targeting heavy objects with UAA Teleport or EDM. Additional Mass is for allowing the target to carry heavy Objects/Characters. Teleport and EDM ignore to Mass of the Target (who is usually the User), because otherwise the power would point-tax players who also have Density Increase or Growth.

Hmm.... I agree Teleport & EDM ignore the mass of the user. But 6e1 p303, under the section on applying UOO to Teleportation, says "If his Teleportation cannot Teleport the entire weight of the target person or object, it will not work." So the mass of the target does matter, and Hero assumes 100kg standard unless it has been defined otherwise. 6e1 p302 reinforces this the section on Increased Mass, saying  "For each +5 Character Points he can Teleport 2x normal human mass (100 kg)." If a character has defined themselves as weighing 400kg, I would probably let them Teleport a 400kg target under the Rule Of Making Sense. But for a normal 100kg character, they can only Teleport 100kg worth of material.

 

AOE definitely makes sense if using Teleport to dig a pit - good catch. But per 6e1 p301, Gates can "Teleport anything that can fit in them and doesn’t exceed their weight limit." [emphasis mine]

[Durzan Malakim]

On second thought, for only preventing run movement a Limited Power limitation probably makes more sense than a Conditional Power limitation. Maybe this: Limited Power Power loses about two-thirds of its effectiveness (Only prevents run movement; -1 1/2)

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah the "extra mass" is to teleport the materials being moved. Whether that is because you're holding it or because you're moving it without touching it, the key is "the weight of what is being teleported."  The user of the power isn't affected by the power's restrictions unless specifically noted, and that includes mass for teleportation.  You aren't teleporting the user -- you.  That mass is being ignored.  But you're still the user of the power.

[Cantriped]

CC/FHC are my primary rules references, and they contain no such clauses regarding UOO or UAA Teleportation.

 

Regardless, the Increased Mass Adder is specifically defined as increasing the amount of mass the character can teleport in addition to themselves (a value which is normally 0*) on page 300.

*with the exception of allowing the character to teleport their clothes and personal effects (defined as Foci).

When you grant a power via UOO or UAA, the recipient becomes the "self" who can be teleported regardless of their Mass, because you are granting them the power, then forcing them to use it at your direction (in the case of UAA). So the clause on page 303 is only relevant if you are using the UAA Teleport to Teleport yourself while carrying an unwilling target, or when you attempt to teleport an unwilling target that is holding another unwilling target (or object) you also want to teleport.

[Doc Democracy]

To pick just one objection, an entangled character can still be targeted by someone with a ranged attack standing 30 meters away (though they'd be hitting the stone block first if that's what you used.) The character in the pit can't.

Why not? If you can shoot through a normal entangle, then you can shoot through the angle of the pit to hit the person inside. Indeed, by using the entangle, I have even made the ruling easy for the GM, she knows exactly what DEF and BODY to use before damaging the captive.

 

I think you would also limit the materials you can create a pit in, to avoid the typical player abuse the Cantriped mentioned. If you can create a pit trap for someone to fall into, then why not create the same hole in a castle or bank wall? I think this goes to the heart of the magic versus science dynamic being discussed in Fantasy Hero forum just now. If you advocate a scientific magic, then why not. If you advocate a mystical magic, then because that is not what the spell does...

 

:-)

 

Doc

[bigdamnhero]

[apologies for summarizing rather than quoting 20 different individual posts]

 

Re using Drain/Suppress Running: I get what you're saying, but I still don't think it works for me. It ignores the Def/Body of the ground, which should be relevant. It's stopped by Power Defense, which makes little sense conceptually. It slows down characters with extra Running, but doesn't stop them; it should be either/or. ("Able to run up walls" is a different matter, and should allow the target to escape; but remember this is a low fantasy game, not supers.) And the character has to continue to pay END once the hole is already dug.

 

Re Darkness:  doesn't make sense; the target can still see, read a scroll, etc. Making a targeting roll with Hearing won't help. It's just their line of fire is restricted by the change in terrain. If I used Flight UAA to throw someone out a window, they're not blinded; they just have a building in the way.

 

Re Entangle: Definitely closer, and was in fact my first thought. I wouldn't have a problem if someone else wanted to go that route. My problem is still that the basic mechanical effect of escaping Entangle is to punch/blast your way out, and that doesn't really apply here. So I have to buy up the Def enough that someone can't punch/blast their way out, even tho that shouldn't make a difference here. Meanwhile, I have to tack on other Limitations to allow people to escape by Leaping, Flying, Climbing, etc. Plus another Lim for "only works if the ground has less than X BODY. At some point I feel like we've mangled the mechanics beyond recognition and should be looking for a different mechanic.

 

Re Barrier: I bounced that around in my head a few times, and I think you could probably make it work. But it has a lot of the same problems as Entangle, where the Def/BODY of the ground is irrelevant, but the Def/BODY of the Barrier is, which is backwards.

 

I completely agree that Movement UAA is always worth a Stop Sign, which is partly why I'm asking for second opinions. But I still think it's the best way to go here.

 

As for using Ranged & Indirect instead of UAA: I get where you're going. But 1) in all Movement Powers it's implicit that the character goes along with the movement; if they don't want to go along with the movement, they need to buy UAA. That's true with Teleport, Flight, etc, so I don't see why Tunneling should be different. Plus 2) Ranged and Indirect aren't technically legal modifiers on Movement Powers anyway, they're only RAW-legal on Attack Powers. And besides 3) there's at least one published example of using Tunneling UAA to create exactly this effect. If the intent is to use the Power as an attack (it clearly is) then I think it's cleaner to just buy it as an attack. The cost isn't that different anyway (+1.25 for UAA vs +1 for Ranged + Indirect).

 

Re AOE vs hitting the target's DCV. I think you could go either way here. My thinking was that if you're only digging a big enough pit for one person, then you have to hit the exact spot underneath that person or right in front of them if they're moving, and assuming the target is trying to avoid spells being at them, their DCV seems like an appropriate way to measure that. And since DCV usually correlates with DEX* that might obviate the need for a DEX Roll to avoid falling in? OTOH if you had the points to put AOE on it, that means you're digging a large enough pit that an individual has to DFC to avoid it (assuming they have a held action).

 

Re taking damage from falling into the pit: I'm of two minds about this, but given that it's only going to be a couple dice I think I'm willing to handwave it. If I were to use Teleport UAA or Flight UAA to throw someone out a 10th story window, the fact that they take damage from hitting the pavement below doesn't need to be built into the power.

 

* Directly or indirectly, depending on Edition and let's not relive that argument please.

[Doc Democracy]

I can rationalise the blast your way out easier than other stuff. I actually hurt my head more thinking about movement usable against others resulting in people having restricted flight, creating structures or any of the other things related to falling into a pit.

 

Blast your way out? Kick down the retaining wall and run up the resulting slope... :-)

[bigdamnhero]

CC/FHC are my primary rules references, and they contain no such clauses regarding UOO or UAA Teleportation.

Understood, and I love those books for 90% of stuff. But when we get down into rules minutia, I check 6ed for clarification. And your interpretation of the quote from p303 does not fit in the context of the rest of the paragraph, which is specifically about teleporting others, not teleporting yourself with another. There is perhaps some ambiguity as to whether or not a 400kg character can, by default, Teleport 400kg or 100kg as an attack; but there's no question that a 100kg character (ie 90% of characters) can only Teleport 100kg UAA unless they've bought Increased Mass.

 

If you can shoot through a normal entangle, then you can shoot through the angle of the pit to hit the person inside. Indeed, by using the entangle, I have even made the ruling easy for the GM, she knows exactly what DEF and BODY to use before damaging the captive.

But the DEF & BODY of the walls of the pit shouldn't matter when shooting down at someone on the bottom of the pit. All that matters is LOS. (Indirect aside.) So now we have to add on Takes No Damage From Attacks, but throw on something like Completely Blocks All Attacks Except Those From The Edge Of The Pit? Getting awfully fiddly.

 

I think you would also limit the materials you can create a pit in, to avoid the typical player abuse the Cantriped mentioned. If you can create a pit trap for someone to fall into, then why not create the same hole in a castle or bank wall?

Exactly! That's why I like the Tunneling UAA approach, because the Def of the materials is expressly built into the mechanics without having to kludge them on.

[Doc Democracy]

Except that it isn't... creating a pit is an actual effect, like taking damage, or flying. It could have any number of special effects assigned to it, like "Earth Magic". There are good reasons why my power doesn't need to define amounts of damage, or LoS restrictions, or movement restrictions, most of which I've already explained and you've chosen to ignore.

I think what Durban is saying here is that the creation of the pit is not the primary objective of the power as described. It was specifically described as creating a pit under someone to trap them. Thus the trap is the primary objective, the pit is an effect associated with that.

 

I am not saying that creating a pit cannot be a primary objective, it can, as you have demonstrated, but that is likely to be more powerful and cost more....and be more cumbersome to use as an attack.

 

It should all come down to gameplay and I would explain all that to the player, allowing him to decide what effects he wanted access to (was willing to pay for).

 

Doc

[Christopher R Taylor]

in all Movement Powers it's implicit that the character goes along with the movement; if they don't want to go along with the movement, they need to buy UAA. That's true with Teleport, Flight, etc, so I don't see why Tunneling should be different.

 

 

This is a critical point and I agree, that is a problem with the ranged/indirect.  The rules saying you can't usually do this doesn't bother me, this is a special case.

However, I don't see this being worth +1¼ advantage and further, since you're not actually moving the target either, you have a problem with UAA.  I suppose you could use Cantriped's trick of "I move a mass of air downward with the tunneling" which will typically get you a smack in the head by the GM as being if not cheating then brushing heavily up against it.  But you still have the problem of cost here.  Digging a pit isn't worth what it would cost.  

 

Maybe a +¼ "attacker does not move with the power" advantage is more appropriate for this, as its not really an attack, either.  You're not attacking anything, you're just digging a hole in the ground over there. The use of "attack" is to designate forcing the power on someone else.  But if you aren't really doing that, as in this case (they aren't moving either) its a different sort of effect.  If someone falls in, well that's not fun for them, but its a side effect of the power's use, not its direct effect.

 

I don't actually see the need for AE here.  Tunneling necessarily digs a 2m round area by definition, the length of the power: it has to be big enough for a normal person to fit through.  The rules don't specifically state this, but clearly you aren't making a hole the size of your fist.  Its a tunnel you move through, hence, big enough for you to move through.  

 

You can make it bigger, of course.  I'd use the AE Line rules (+1/4 to double the width) or allow a character to half their depth for double width.

[Doc Democracy]

But the DEF & BODY of the walls of the pit shouldn't matter when shooting down at someone on the bottom of the pit. All that matters is LOS. (Indirect aside.) So now we have to add on Takes No Damage From Attacks, but throw on something like Completely Blocks All Attacks Except Those From The Edge Of The Pit? Getting awfully fiddly.

 

HERO almost actively encourages GMs to get involved in minutiae of detailed power builds, like current editions encourage highly detailed and costly skill sets.

 

I prefer playing with broad skill sets (like Professional Skill: Street Cop) and giving modifiers for things. I reckon a lot of the fiddly detail here can be dealt with simply by putting in "pit trap" and allowing common sense rulings work (it is things like this that keep GMs in a job!). I know it is a pit trap and that while it restricts the movement of someone trapped in it, I can move such that I can use a ranged attack against them and vice versa. I know I can only create it when the ground is not so tough that I cannot affect it.

 

Exactly! That's why I like the Tunneling UAA approach, because the Def of the materials is expressly built into the mechanics without having to kludge them on.

not sure if I would call it kludging any more than movement UAA is (though that is a personal bugbear of min). Again, I would be happy to create that pit in any terrain as long as the player understood that if I considered her to be using the power primarily as a pit creation tool rather than a character trapping tool, I would be re-visiting costs...

 

Doc

[Christopher R Taylor]

 I would be happy to create that pit in any terrain as long as the player understood that if I considered her to be using the power primarily as a pit creation tool rather than a character trapping tool

 

 

 

And that may be where the difference is between me and others: I view this as a power that creates pits, which someone may fall into.  Not a power that traps targets.  if it just traps people, its probably just an Entangle with an after effect of a collapsed pit when they escaped (a small crater).  I am trying to build a power that creates a pit in the ground, which means the target is irrelevant.

[Cantriped]

This is a critical point and I agree, that is a problem with the ranged/indirect.  The rules saying you can't usually do this doesn't bother me, this is a special case.

However, I don't see this being worth +1¼ advantage and further, since you're not actually moving the target either, you have a problem with UAA.  I suppose you could use Cantriped's trick of "I move a mass of air downward with the tunneling" which will typically get you a smack in the head by the GM as being if not cheating then brushing heavily up against it.  But you still have the problem of cost here.  Digging a pit isn't worth what it would cost.  

 

Maybe a +¼ "attacker does not move with the power" advantage is more appropriate for this, as its not really an attack, either.  You're not attacking anything, you're just digging a hole in the ground over there. The use of "attack" is to designate forcing the power on someone else.  But if you aren't really doing that, as in this case (they aren't moving either) its a different sort of effect.  If someone falls in, well that's not fun for them, but its a side effect of the power's use, not its direct effect.

 

I don't actually see the need for AE here.  Tunneling necessarily digs a 2m round area by definition, the length of the power: it has to be big enough for a normal person to fit through.  The rules don't specifically state this, but clearly you aren't making a hole the size of your fist.  Its a tunnel you move through, hence, big enough for you to move through.  

 

You can make it bigger, of course.  I'd use the AE Line rules (+1/4 to double the width) or allow a character to half their depth for double width.

I totally agree my trick of targeting the air/surface to tunnel is in questionable design taste, and as a GM I would be accepting of a +1/4 advantage (or even a +1/2 advantage) that allowed a Character to create a Tunnel beginning within their reach without moving themselves (and allowed Tunneling to take Ranged and/or Indirect). Personally (for the number of points being spent) I would allow an AoE, UAA, Tunneling Power to target an area instead of Character or Object if that fit the special effect, and thus create a pit beneath a character without moving them... but that is technically a house rule.

I used AoE in my construct because CC/FHC doesn't define the width of the Tunnel using a fixed value, the tunnel is "roughly [the user's] own size", so by raw a larger target or target area would create a larger tunnel and a smaller target or target area would create a smaller tunnel.