Create Pit Trap

[Doc Democracy]

Read the £&@*!?$ Manual.

 

:-)

[Cantriped]

The difference is that BDH bought instant on it, same difference but it makes the power a one-shot and not continuous, the tunnelling happens. It is there that the power happens right away.

 

As an aside, HERO movement RAW is odd. There is not segmented movement and this can throw up odd situations. A SPD 3 character with 8m movement, chasing a SPD 4 character with 6m movement who starts 2m away, will catch him on phase 8 despite them both having the same movement per turn. If I remember right, the idea is that all the movement occurs in the first segment of the phase and the character is static for the remaining segments....though that is likely 5th edition teachings...

Instant (-1/2) doesn't make the power "Instantaneous", it simply makes the power last no longer than 1 Phase. Therefore UAA, Instant Tunneling doesn't move the target X meters in 0 segments, it moves them X meters over the course the Grantor's Phase; which is ~12/SPD Segments long. If at any point during that phase they no longer meet the conditions for being granted the power, they lose the granted power at that point. Even if that means that you only get to move the target 3m instead of the 4m (or 40m) you purchased.

 

The only exception being that you can never, under any circumstances, Turn Off a movement power while the user/target still has velocity remaining. So even though the target is no longer being "Granted" the power, they still have to decelerate before the power can turn off, which might allow you to squeeze a few extra meters of movement out of the power before the effect actually deactivates; depending upon the deceleration rate of the power in question.

[Doc Democracy]

I think instant can indeed encompass instantaneous. Your own wording matches that of the rules "no more than 1 phase" and it is in the rules as a limitation. As someone pointed out earlier in this case it is an advantage and I would charge it as such, though the rules say that instant should not normally be used on movement powers.

 

I cannot remember where I read about movement happening in this strange fashion but will see if I can find it for you. One point is that of teleport. Do you rule that the SPD 2 teleporter that teleports on segment 6 disappears from view and then reappears on segment 12? :-)

 

You are making me look at the rules too often, it is becoming work rather than conversation! :-). The description of an instant power says:

 

An Instant Power lasts just long enough for the character using the power to make an Attack Roll. Examples include Powers like Blast, Entangle, and Flash. Although an Instant Power lasts for just a second (at most), its effects may linger.

 

A second translates to a segment, no more instantaneous than that for something that is not a zero phase action. I think the limitation allows stretching duration to the full phase to allow for one shot defences to be slightly more useful.

[Cantriped]

No I would not. 

Teleport is specifically described as being instantaneous, there is never a time gap between disappearing and reappearing. So any amount of time required to activate the power, such as the full phase required to move full teleport distance, or the extra phase required to Teleport Noncombat (or Megascale) Distance, is simply a "warm-up" period before you actually Teleport.

So you could UAA Teleport a target the full distance allowed by the power never crosses the intervening space. Once the activation period has elapsed the target moves instantaneously from their starting point to the target point. Of course once reappear if they are outside of your Line of Sight they lose the Granted Power immediately afterwards, and therefore could not be teleported again even if you had distance or actions remaining this phase.

 

If you are looking for an advantage value for making movement "Instantaneous" (like Teleport); I would set it at +1/4. Since that is the difference in value between normal UAA (+1 1/4), and UAA (Recipient Can Go Anywhere; +1 1/2). But such a movement power should ignore Velocity Rules just like Teleport does. For example, you cannot use Instantaneous Flight to perform a Passing Strike, because you never accelerated or decelerated.

[Doc Democracy]

How interesting. It is something I never thought about before but what you said suggests to me that the SPD 2 teleporter decides on segment 6 he wants to make a full move and does so in segment 12. Personally, I would allow the player to chose which segment (6,7,8, 9,10 or 11) he wanted to move on.

 

I would be persuadable on +1/4 or +1/2 for the advantage and would not allow instant on a power designed to be used to enhance damage on an attack. I think it makes real sense in this build to create an instant pit trap.

[Cantriped]

How interesting. It is something I never thought about before but what you said suggests to me that the SPD 2 teleporter decides on segment 6 he wants to make a full move and does so in segment 12. Personally, I would allow the player to chose which segment (6,7,8, 9,10 or 11) he wanted to move on.

 

I would be persuadable on +1/4 or +1/2 for the advantage and would not allow instant on a power designed to be used to enhance damage on an attack. I think it makes real sense in this build to create an instant pit trap.

Although I cannot recall a rule specifically stating how phases should be interpreted one way or the other... I've always thought of Phases the other way around. By that I mean that a character's phases represent the point in time when the actions for that phase culminate, not when they began.

So a Character with SPD 2 who Teleports their full distance on their Phase during Segment 6 is assumed to have been "warming-up" their teleport during segments 1-5 so they could teleport on segment 6. Likewise if the character makes a half-move (using Running) and then Strikes (using Strength), they retroactively spent segments 1-5 Running at half speed so that they could focus on aiming the punch which lands on segment 6.

Either way you slice it there are occasionally going to be awkward results. For example, no matter direction you count it, a character who uses Teleport (or any other Power really) with Gestures and Incantations during their phase on Segment 6 can only be interrupted if they take Damage during their phase on segment 6. Even though my way they were assumed to be activating that power on segment 3, and your way they were assumed to be activating that power on segment 9.

[bigdamnhero]

Final question, what is the defence against this attack? Is it all or nothing or can the effects be reduced. I reckon you need to be explicit about that.

Fair question. Depending on sfx, I'll often let players apply Power Defense against a Movement UAA power, essentially treating it as an Adjustment Power. But I'm not sure the sfx makes sense here. I would say defenses include Flight, Desolid, being too big to fit in the pit, plus being able to Dive For Cover. Getting out of the pit can be done with Leaping, Clinging/Climbing, or someone throwing a rope down.

 

+1/2 grantor controls power

-1/4 grantor pays endurance

Hmm..yeah, I guess I did kinda skip those. I typically think of both of those as being implicit in UAA, especially for an Instant Power, but per RAW you're correct that would increase the cost +1/4.

 

The only real objection to entangle to me was what happens to a pit after time?

I'm okay with just treating it as a hole in the ground afterwards, which will decay normally depending on weather, how hard the soil is etc. Tunneling explicitly leaves an open tunnel anyway (unless you've bought the Fill In Adv), so I don't feel that requires an additional Advantage like Long Lasting on CE, but YMMV.

 

According to the rules as written, dirt has zero PD.  None.  Rock has significant PD  (5+).

Yeah, I never could understand that. I assume the 0 PD just refers to loose dirt, not packed ground.

 

FYI: Does a Movement power Usable As Attack require a full phase to move the target the full move value? I'd suspect yes so you might need to have 8m Tunneling to force someone to move 4m in a half phase.

Hmm..I hadn't considered that. I don't think RAW says specifically, but I would assume a Full Move UAA takes a Full Phase on the part of the caster. Good catch.

 

BTW: Instant as used in the construction is an advantage not a disadvantage, which if I were GMing, would say constitutes a +1/2.

How do you figure? It means I can't keep moving the target on subsequent Phases without a new attack, so how do you see it as an Advantage? (Not arguing, genuinely curious.)

 

Instant (-1/2) doesn't make the power "Instantaneous", it simply makes the power last no longer than 1 Phase.

...

If at any point during that phase they no longer meet the conditions for being granted the power, they lose the granted power at that point. Even if that means that you only get to move the target 3m instead of the 4m (or 40m) you purchased.

Hmm...I think you're right under RAW. Well "lawyered!" But since that would basically make the entire concept of Tunneling UAA impossible, I think I'm willing to handwave that one based on the sfx of the Power. YMMV of course.

[bigdamnhero]

Incidentally I used the power (as written) in last night's game:

 

PC barbarian charges the Bad Guys.

NPC wizard opens a pit underneath her; ground is 4 PD => 6m deep pit.

Barbarian has already acted so can't Abort to DFC; she falls in and takes a few dice of damage from the fall, but nothing major.

Barbarian spends a couple Phases Climbing out of the pit, while other characters fight around it.

As she gets to the rim of the pit, NPC Nemesis stomps on her fingers, but she manages to hold on.

Barbarian then grabs NPC Nemesis' ankle and pulls him into the pit with her - they both take minor damage from the fall.

Barbarian and Nemesis spend the next couple of Turns beating on each other unarmed (the pit being too narrow for them to wield swords effectively)

Barbarian eventually pummels Nemesis unconscious.

 

It was effective tactically and effectively removed the Barbarian from the fight for a couple Phases, but didn't do significant damage. Interestingly it would up working to the character's advantage because she was able to isolate Nemesis from his men and fight him one-on-one where he couldn't get away. And afterwards, the NPC Wizard decided that since he had intended the pit to keep the Barbarian away from NPC Nemesis, but it wound up bringing them together to settle their dispute, he interpreted that as a Sign From The Gods that they supported her case. So it was way cooler than I had expected it to be!

[Christopher R Taylor]

I don't think RAW says specifically, but I would assume a Full Move UAA takes a Full Phase on the part of the caster.

 

 

but gravity rules gives you additional speed going downhill...  There's no info on tunneling for gravity rules though

[Ninja-Bear]

but gravity rules gives you additional speed going downhill... There's no info on tunneling for gravity rules though

Seriously?

I believe common sense rules this. Most pit traps aren't deep enough for gravity to really affect damage though velocity of movement before fall should. And if the hole is deep enough to warrent gravity then you apply gravity modifiers.

[Cantriped]

Hmm...I think you're right under RAW. Well "lawyered!" But since that would basically make the entire concept of Tunneling UAA impossible, I think I'm willing to handwave that one based on the sfx of the Power. YMMV of course.

If you put "Recipient Can Go Anywhere" on standard UAA (increasing the advantage to +1 1/2) like I did in my various examples, then you can ignore all the line-of-sight based issues with maintaining the granted power without resorting the GM Fiat.

PS: "Grantor Controls Power" and "Grantor Pays END" are indeed implicit to UAA. Champions Complete​ 120 correctly lists all of the implicit modifiers for the default +1 1/4 version of Usable As Attack.

 

 

but gravity rules gives you additional speed going downhill...  There's no info on tunneling for gravity rules though

As far as I know, the Gravity bonus/penalty applies to every form of movement which has a Velocity component. So you can dive faster than you can surface with Swimming or Tunneling, but not with Teleport.

[Doc Democracy]

If you put "Recipient Can Go Anywhere" on standard UAA (increasing the advantage to +1 1/2) like I did in my various examples, then you can ignore all the line-of-sight based issues with maintaining the granted power without resorting the GM Fiat.

PS: "Grantor Controls Power" and "Grantor Pays END" are indeed implicit to UAA. Champions Complete​ 120 correctly lists all of the implicit modifiers for the default +1 1/4 version of Usable As Attack.

The biggest issue with losing the instant element to the attack is that he can make the pit continue to grow without additional attack rollss. I like the idea that it is an instant attack - it creates an instant pit and no more.

 

 

Doc

[Cantriped]

The biggest issue with losing the instant element to the attack is that he can make the pit continue to grow without additional attack rollss. I like the idea that it is an instant attack - it creates an instant pit and no more.

Agreed, both of my suggested builds took Instant (-1/2) for that very reason.

The gist of my suggested build was:

Tunneling ?m (? PD), Usable As Attack (Recipient Can Go Anywhere; +1 1/2) (? APs); Instant (-1/2), No Noncombat Movement (-1/4).

[dmjalund]

Entangle only vs armpits

[Doc Democracy]

Agreed, both of my suggested builds took Instant (-1/2) for that very reason.

The gist of my suggested build was:

Tunneling ?m (? PD), Usable As Attack (Recipient Can Go Anywhere; +1 1/2) (? APs); Instant (-1/2), No Noncombat Movement (-1/4).

Actually, our pricing is not too far away but I see instant as an advantage in this build but do not see the need for recipient can go anywhere (because they can't, they just do one move down). I cost the instant as +1/4 though could be persuaded to +1/2. In this build I don't see no non-combat movement as a limitation either, so probably would not give a discount for that either.

[Cantriped]

The main difference between our constructs is that mine is legal by RAW, and yours requires that you be the GM.

The reason for "Can Go Anywhere" is because otherwise the is power is broken immediately by losing line of sight. Which I will grant is much more likely if the power can be used at range like my very first example could be, but also happens if the tunnel banks at any point. Instant therefore is definitely a limitation on such a power, because otherwise I could just keep forcing the target to tunnel until they are too deep to ever escape the pit, or the tunnel banks too many times for them to climb out.

Based on your previous arguments, the only reason Instant would be considered an advantage in this build is because you are ascribing to it qualities that by the RAW it does not possess (the ability to retain the granting of the power after Line of Sight is lost). Then attempting to use said qualities to avoid the need to use Recipient Can Go Anywhere (+1/4) within the UAA portion of the power.

No Noncombat Movement is a valid limitation because otherwise I can double the tunneling distance in exchange for suffering severe CV penalties. The fact that it is a tactically poor decision do to so is irrelevant. You are still losing a capability the power otherwise has, so it should be discounted appropriately. Incantations is worth -1/4; yet I have never, ever seen anybody hold an action just to try to interrupt a targets incantations, nor have I even seen anybody use Darkness to Hearing to prevent incantations. IIF is still worth -1/4, even though the chances of somebody actually losing an IIF are astronomically small (and again, I've never, ever seen it happen).

[Doc Democracy]

what in my construct requires me to the GM? The only element we disagree on is the extent to which an instant power might tunnel...even then, mine would simply be a bit less effective.

 

I think, if it is instant, it does not need "can go anywhere". I direct it when I can see it and that happens instantly, I then lose the ability to direct it to go anywhere. No contradiction of rules as written. I can justify my use of instant, as necessary to the build, thereby why it should be allowed when normally instant should not be used on a movement power.

 

In your build, the same power could be used on the person within the pit to go further, then further again. The exact thing you said made it broken. For my power, I would need to be hanging over the edge to use it even a second time...

 

Were it not to be instant, as GM, I would argue the fact that it is a combat power (usable as an attack), makes it impossible to be used as non-combat movement.

 

Though, am now tired of arguing minutiae of instant on a UAA movement power, and so This is my last post on the issue. Am sure BDH has gotten what he wanted/needed out of the discussion. :-)

 

 

Doc

[Cantriped]

what in my construct requires me to the GM? The only element we disagree on is the extent to which an instant power might tunnel...even then, mine would simply be a bit less effective.

Only the GM can declare house rules. Such as declaring that Instant is an Advantage. that No Noncombat Movement isn't worth points, or that a UAA Power cannot use Noncombat Speeds.

 

I think, if it is instant, it does not need "can go anywhere". I direct it when I can see it and that happens instantly, I then lose the ability to direct it to go anywhere. No contradiction of rules as written. I can justify my use of instant, as necessary to the build, thereby why it should be allowed when normally instant should not be used on a movement power.

Under one and only one circumstance does Instant UAA Tunneling not benefit from "Recipient Can Go Anywhere". That circumstance is where you are standing immediately adjacent to the target, and the intended tunnel goes in a perfectly straight line in a direction you can face.

No where in the rules for the Instant duration quality (or in the Modifier) does it say that the power is actually Instantaneous, instead CC says that the power lasts just long enough to make an Attack Roll (CC 43), and the rules for Combat state that making an Attack Roll is always at least a half-phase Action (CC 138)... Therefore they take between 0.5 and 6 seconds to complete depending upon your SPD. The only game element to my knowledge which is actually instantaneous is Teleport (because it is actually described as being instantaneous). Further, nowhere in the rules for Usable by Other does it state that if Line of Sight is lost, the granted power is not lost until the end of the Grantor/Recipient's Phase.

 

In your build, the same power could be used on the person within the pit to go further, then further again. The exact thing you said made it broken. For my power, I would need to be hanging over the edge to use it even a second time...

I didn't put ranged on either of the last two versions of the power... so no the attack usually can't... To use the power on the same target again, the target would have to be within the attacker's reach, which would require following the target down the pit somehow.

 

Were it not to be instant, as GM, I would argue the fact that it is a combat power (usable as an attack), makes it impossible to be used as non-combat movement.

You are certainly free to declare that as a house rule, which would indeed mean that No Noncombat Movement would no longer be a valid modifier for the power in your campaign... However the rules say nothing of the sort. Nothing in either UAA or the Movement Rules for CC/FHC states you cannot use a UAA Movement Power at Noncombat Speeds by accepting the penalties of being at 0 OCV and 1/2 DCV. Which I will grant makes your chances of actually hitting an unwilling target pretty damn low... but it is still allowed.