Create Pit Trap

[Durzan Malakim]

I think what Dur[z]an is saying here is that the creation of the pit is not the primary objective of the power as described. It was specifically described as creating a pit under someone to trap them. Thus the trap is the primary objective, the pit is an effect associated with that.

 

I am not saying that creating a pit cannot be a primary objective, it can, as you have demonstrated, but that is likely to be more powerful and cost more....and be more cumbersome to use as an attack.

 

It should all come down to gameplay and I would explain all that to the player, allowing him to decide what effects he wanted access to (was willing to pay for).

 

Doc

 

Yes, I thought the primary objective was to restrain targets and prevent their movement. The piddling amount of falling damage and line of sight issues are secondary game effects, but ones that can be modeled fairly easily. I can see where creating holes at a distance is an interesting application of a movement power as long as the intent is to actually allow or force others to move through those holes. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I used AoE in my construct because CC/FHC doesn't define the width of the Tunnel using a fixed value, the tunnel is "roughly [the user's] own size", so by raw a larger target or target area would create a larger tunnel and a smaller target or target area would create a smaller tunnel.

 

 

That is a good point.  A mole doesn't dig a 2m wide tunnel, just a mole-sized one.  That does make it kind of subjective.

[Lucius]

 

 

 

 

Why not?

Because I do not assume that characters by default would have some way to percieving someone at the bottom of a pit so as to target them, nor do I assume that by default attacks are indirect.

 

If you can shoot through a normal entangle, then you can shoot through the angle of the pit to hit the person inside. Indeed, by using the entangle, I have even made the ruling easy for the GM, she knows exactly what DEF and BODY to use before damaging the captive.

You've also made the actual defense and BOD of the ground irrelevant. Blasting through several meters even of loose soil, which is what you would be doing if you are attacking someone in a pit if you are standing that far away (and again, assuming you can somehow see your target to aim) would likely be harder than breaking the Entangles I have seen proposed.

 

 

 

 

At some point I feel like we've mangled the mechanics beyond recognition and should be looking for a different mechanic.

 

Well put, and something I've been trying to say.

 

But the DEF & BODY of the walls of the pit shouldn't matter when shooting down at someone on the bottom of the pit. All that matters is LOS. (Indirect aside.) So now we have to add on Takes No Damage From Attacks, but throw on something like Completely Blocks All Attacks Except Those From The Edge Of The Pit? Getting awfully fiddly.

Or else awfully handwavey.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders how long we're going to keep digging

[Cantriped]

Understood, and I love those books for 90% of stuff. But when we get down into rules minutia, I check 6ed for clarification.

I don't, because I rarely find clarity in 6E1&2. I consider CC/FHC to be their own distinct (albeit highly backwards compatible) edition, sort of akin to what 3.5 D&D was to 3rd edition. These days I only use 6E era rulebooks and supplements for toolkitting, since even the villain write-ups are often incorrect by CC/FHC's rules; usually only by a few points because of imploded skills or classes of minds, but still incorrect.

Naturally if you are free to use 6E1&2 as your primary rules reference if you prefer. I simply cite my source so that others can decide for themselves whether my information is relevant to them, the same way a player using 5th edition does when posting here.

If you interpret the rules of the edition you play to require that UAA Teleport takes the Additional Mass adder, then for games you GM it does, and my advice isn't really relevant to you. However I would argue that ruling makes UAA Teleport unfairly more expensive and difficult to use than other UAA Movement Powers (such as UAA Flight), which lack such restrictions.

[Cantriped]

Looking back at your original post bigdamnhero, I'm not certain you will be able to find a rules legal solution that you'll be happy within your 45 APs benchmark. The minimum you can knock UAA Tunneling down to and still make functional pits in average dungeon floors is:

Pit-Trap:  Tunneling 4m (8 PD), Usable As Attack (Recipient Can Go Anywhere; +1 1/2) (50 APs); Instant (-1/2), No Noncombat Movement (-1/4). Total Cost: 28 points (or 3 to 6 points as a Multipower Slot).

Note: This Attack has No Range, and only targets a single enemy pushing them 4m in any given direction (usually downward), since the power move them, they take no Falling Damage.

Most of the cost comes from the fact that Stone Blocks have 8 PD, and extra PD costs twice as much as extra Tunnel distance. If you give Dungeon Floors the statistics of concrete (6 PD), you can reduce the cost to 40 APs and 23 RPs.

[bigdamnhero]

I would argue that ruling makes UAA Teleport unfairly more expensive and difficult to use than other UAA Movement Powers (such as UAA Flight), which lack such restrictions.

Flight is different, because it inherently includes however much weight you can carry based on your STR.* Weight is a factor for Teleportation - that's not my interpretation, that's a clear reading of RAW.

 

* Which already causes problems when you're talking about device-based Flight, especially in Heroic games: why can Big Bob's jetpack carry 500 kg while Tiny Tim's can only carry 150 kg, just because Bob has a 20 STR and Tim only has a 5 STR? But that's a whole `nother thread.

[bigdamnhero]

Here's what I think I'm going with:

 

Pitfall:  Tunneling 4m through 5 PD material, Area Of Effect (2m Radius; +1/4), Can vary depth and PD (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1 1/2), Recipient must be within Limited Range of the Grantor for power to be granted (45 Active Points); Limited Power Only to open a pit under the character (-1), Instant (-1/2) [18 RP, 4 END]

 

I decided I wanted a larger pit after all, so I went with AOE. This still allows a 4m pit through most stone/brick, and 8m through loose dirt (3 PD). I considered adding an additional Lim for Only Works vs Characters On The Ground, but Flight is pretty Rare in this game, aside from birds, so I decided it wasn't really limiting. YMMV of course.

 

Thanks all for your input and ideas! (Which is not meant to put an end to the discussion...)

[bigdamnhero]

HERO almost actively encourages GMs to get involved in minutiae of detailed power builds, like current editions encourage highly detailed and costly skill sets.

 

I prefer playing with broad skill sets (like Professional Skill: Street Cop) and giving modifiers for things. I reckon a lot of the fiddly detail here can be dealt with simply by putting in "pit trap" and allowing common sense rulings work (it is things like this that keep GMs in a job!). c

100% agreed. The only reason I'm even fussing over it is 1) the game is a few days away, so I had time to think about it, and 2) I wanted to at least try and keep it within the 45-AP cap.

 

not sure if I would call it kludging any more than movement UAA is (though that is a personal bugbear of min).

Personally I don't have a problem with Movement UAA; it's definitely a Stop Sign combo that merits close scrutiny, but if it fits the effect I'm trying for I'm okay with it. As has been pointed out, 45 AP to dig a pit isn't unbalancing however you build it.

[bigdamnhero]

The minimum you can knock UAA Tunneling down to and still make functional pits in average dungeon floors is:

Pit-Trap:  Tunneling 4m (8 PD)

8 PD is reinforced concrete - you must have some tough dungeon builders! But the spell is mostly intended to be used outdoors anyway.

[Cantriped]

8 PD is reinforced concrete - you must have some tough dungeon builders! But the spell is mostly intended to be used outdoors anyway.

FHC gives "Stone Blocks" 8 PD, since most stereotypical dungeons are described as being make from huge blocks of stone, of even hewn from solid rock, it was the value I went with.

 

 

Flight is different, because it inherently includes however much weight you can carry based on your STR.* Weight is a factor for Teleportation - that's not my interpretation, that's a clear reading of RAW.

 

* Which already causes problems when you're talking about device-based Flight, especially in Heroic games: why can Big Bob's jetpack carry 500 kg while Tiny Tim's can only carry 150 kg, just because Bob has a 20 STR and Tim only has a 5 STR? But that's a whole `nother thread.

What I meant is that a Character does not have to pay extra points (or have a higher Strength) to target a heavy enemy with UAA Flight. So it would be unfair to expect a character to have to pay extra points to target a heavy enemy with UAA Teleportation instead.

In both cases you are granting the Target a power and then forcing them to use it at your direction. Since they are using the power you granted them, for Flight it is their STR (and not yours) that determines what mass they can carry in addition to themselves, and for Teleportation it is their mass which is ignored (and not yours) and the mass of anything they want to carry with them you must have paid for enough Extra Mass to teleport or the Teleport fails. UAA simply gives you control of when they use it and how, just like No Conscious Control, it is otherwise "their power" for as long as you are granting it, except as noted by the version of UBO you purchased (such as who pays the END cost of its usage).

[Doc Democracy]

Here's what I think I'm going with:

 

 

Pitfall:  Tunneling 4m through 5 PD material, Area Of Effect (2m Radius; +1/4), Can vary depth and PD (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1 1/2), Recipient must be within Limited Range of the Grantor for power to be granted (45 Active Points); Limited Power Only to open a pit under the character (-1), Instant (-1/2) [18 RP, 4 END]

 

I decided I wanted a larger pit after all, so I went with AOE. This still allows a 4m pit through most stone/brick, and 8m through loose dirt (3 PD). I considered adding an additional Lim for Only Works vs Characters On The Ground, but Flight is pretty Rare in this game, aside from birds, so I decided it wasn't really limiting. YMMV of course.

 

Thanks all for your input and ideas! (Which is not meant to put an end to the discussion...)

OK, from my reading this moves an opponent, within range, into a pit in the ground. Which I think is the key purpose of the power. Am being lazy, but does UAA grant range as part of the advantage, otherwise you are missing an advantage here, even for limited range. Does tunnelling leave a tunnel by default that others can use?

 

Final question, what is the defence against this attack? Is it all or nothing or can the effects be reduced. I reckon you need to be explicit about that.

 

This also grants some of the versatility of Cantriped's vision, though you will only be digging pits downward. :-). Look out for some breaking into houses via the roof.... :-)

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Did the work, went and looked at the rule book. :-). So the tunnel makes a lasting impact on the environment. Good hole, it sticks around.

 

As far as I can see, your UAA is too expensive...

+1/4 grant power to one recipient

+1 can force power on recipient

+1/2 grantor controls power

-1/4 grantor pays endurance

-1/2 power only usable on others

+1/4 limited range

 

That comes, in my addition, to +1 1/4. Though if you decide only being able to use it on others is not a huge disadvantage, then it should be +1 3/4. :-)

 

I kinda like the idea of an instant foxhole....

[Doc Democracy]

I do love learning in public as I RTFM....

 

So usable as attack detailed description indicates that it can only be used as an attack and so the -1/2 I have is not valid and you are indeed costing it to cheaply, +1 3/4 rather than +1 1/2.

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

The only real objection to entangle to me was what happens to a pit after time? Entangle defined as webbing disolves after time. Then i thought well perhaps a pit trap collapses on itself and seals itself? I can see entangle working for pit trap. Btw I would then add sticky to entangle so other people could be affected when helping the the poor sod.

[Ninja-Bear]

Why not? If you can shoot through a normal entangle, then you can shoot through the angle of the pit to hit the person inside. Indeed, by using the entangle, I have even made the ruling easy for the GM, she knows exactly what DEF and BODY to use before damaging the captive.

 

I think you would also limit the materials you can create a pit in, to avoid the typical player abuse the Cantriped mentioned. If you can create a pit trap for someone to fall into, then why not create the same hole in a castle or bank wall? I think this goes to the heart of the magic versus science dynamic being discussed in Fantasy Hero forum just now. If you advocate a scientific magic, then why not. If you advocate a mystical magic, then because that is not what the spell does...

 

:-)

 

Doc

Technically you need GM permission to use tunneling on doors and such. Plus castle walls typically have a high DEF then earth. ; )

[Christopher R Taylor]

According to the rules as written, dirt has zero PD.  None.  Rock has significant PD  (5+).

[Cantriped]

I do love learning in public as I RTFM....

 

So usable as attack detailed description indicates that it can only be used as an attack and so the -1/2 I have is not valid and you are indeed costing it to cheaply, +1 3/4 rather than +1 1/2.

 

Doc

Yeah for this application you need a +1 1/2 to +2 variant of UAA. Standard UAA is +1 1/4, but you also need "Recipient Can Go Anywhere" (+1/4) or the power will deactivate as soon as the target leaves your line of sight (such as because the tunnel becomes too deep), and most applications of the power benefit from being Ranged (which can be included as a permutation of UAA for its normal cost or bought separately)

[Doc Democracy]

Yeah for this application you need a +1 1/2 to +2 variant of UAA. Standard UAA is +1 1/4, but you also need "Recipient Can Go Anywhere" (+1/4) or the power will deactivate as soon as the target leaves your line of sight (such as because the tunnel becomes too deep), and most applications of the power benefit from being Ranged (which can be included as a permutation of UAA for its normal cost or bought separately)

I did not use the recipient can go anywhere as the power is instant, it works then stops working, no deeper, no need to see them...

[Christopher R Taylor]

 as a GM I would be accepting of a +1/4 advantage (or even a +1/2 advantage) that allowed a Character to create a Tunnel beginning within their reach without moving themselves (and allowed Tunneling to take Ranged and/or Indirect).

 

 

Which means "you don't need to buy UAA and cost twice as much."  Because usable as an attack necessarily moves the target with the movement power.

[Cantriped]

I did not use the recipient can go anywhere as the power is instant, it works then stops working, no deeper, no need to see them...

Must Remain Within Line of Sight is a state based condition of the power remaining granted, the exact moment the condition is no longer met, the Recipient should lose the Granted Power. Nothing in the rules says the condition is only checked at the beginning of the phase. For example, lets say you grant UAA Tunneling to a target standing 10m away. Once the target has been tunneled 3m or more, you've lost line of sight on them, and therefore they lose the granted power. The fact that you paid for more than 3m of Tunneling per Phase is irrelevant in that instance.

Now, if you are granting UAA Tunneling to a target within your reach, chances are that no amount of tunneling will carry them out of your line of sight unless the tunnel curves or bends, in which case "Recipient can go anywhere" would be less necessary.

 

Which means "you don't need to buy UAA and cost twice as much."  Because usable as an attack necessarily moves the target with the movement power.

Yes it would, and does. I would have to watch how that house-rule impacted the game to be sure It wasn't abusive or damaging to balance of my campaign.

[Doc Democracy]

The difference is that BDH bought instant on it, same difference but it makes the power a one-shot and not continuous, the tunnelling happens. It is there that the power happens right away.

 

As an aside, HERO movement RAW is odd. There is not segmented movement and this can throw up odd situations. A SPD 3 character with 8m movement, chasing a SPD 4 character with 6m movement who starts 2m away, will catch him on phase 8 despite them both having the same movement per turn. If I remember right, the idea is that all the movement occurs in the first segment of the phase and the character is static for the remaining segments....though that is likely 5th edition teachings...

[Durzan Malakim]

Following Doc's lead I too RTFM for the Usable As Attack advantage (6E1 pages 358-359). Since I realize not everyone has or uses the 6E books, here are the relevant bits:

• UAA powers should only have limitations that affect the Grantor.
• UAA powers are only usable as attacks and cannot be used for their normal purpose.
• UAA powers may require a half-phase action to control the Recipient.
• GM may require an Attack roll to do something that harms the Recipient.

These rules certainly remove some of my previous objections.

 

FYI: Does a Movement power Usable As Attack require a full phase to move the target the full move value? I'd suspect yes so you might need to have 8m Tunneling to force someone to move 4m in a half phase.

[dsatow]

Final question, what is the defense against this attack? Is it all or nothing or can the effects be reduced. I reckon you need to be explicit about that.

 

 

Def: Entangle the ground with 6 PD entangle or barrier the ground with 6 PD.

 

BTW: Instant as used in the construction is an advantage not a disadvantage, which if I were GMing, would say constitutes a +1/2.

[Doc Democracy]

Not sure I would accept those as defences, they are definitely ways to counter the effects but, having eventually actually gone and read the text, the defence would be having access to entangle or barrier powers and I am not sure they will count as reasonably common, though they are reasonably obvious. :-)

[Ninja-Bear]

RTFM?