Low level Super hero game

[Ninja-Bear]

My daughter and i are working on a game for her to run. I'm curious that people have said that if Bricks didn't start out as speed 4 Dex 18, we wouldn't have had the stat inflation we do now. So my question is where would you put archeypes at inna low level game? Make Dex 26 Dex 23? Thanks?

[BoloOfEarth]

First, a few questions: 

 

By "low level" how many points are you talking?  300 points?

 

Also, are you using 6th edition or a prior edition?  Because IMO the removal of figured characteristics in 6E reduced stat inflation dramatically, particularly STR, DEX, and CON.

 

That said, I'd figure for a 300-point game, archetypes would generally fall around:

• Bricks at 45-55 STR, 13-15 DEX, 3-4 SPD
• Energy Projectors / Gadgeteers / Mystics / Powered Armor / Weaponmasters at 15-18 DEX, 4-5 SPD
• Speedsters / Martial Artists at 18-23 DEX, 5-6 SPD
• Mentalists at 18-23 EGO, 4-5 SPD (with the caveat that in my games, mentalist use their EGO in place of DEX to determine order in the SPD sheet.
• Metamporphs depend upon type;  Growth ones are probably similar to Bricks;  Mimics are probably like Speedsters (to match their mimic target's DEX / SPD); Shrinkers or other shapechangers probably are like Energy Projectors

[Ninja-Bear]

Bolo I'm upgrading to Champions Complete however I'm not sure at this point what that is. I started this in fifth so 250 pt.

[BoloOfEarth]

I'd think 250 points in 5E would be about 300 points in 6E / CC.  The difference being between figured characteristics (5E) and no figured characteristics (6E / CC), with bricks generally getting hit harder than others.

 

A while back, I created a villain team (Vermin) in 5E, and then updated them to 6E.  The differences (point wise, with archetypes noted) were:

• Cockroach (brick) in 5E was 375 points, in 6E was 444
• Flea (shrinker) in 5E was 350 points, in 6E was 380
• Gopher (blaster/gadgeteer) - in 5E was 350 points, in 6E was 404
• Maus (brick) in 5E was 350 points, in 6E was 422
• Mink (martial artist) in 5E was 350 points, in 6E was 400
• Pigeon (HtH flier) in 5E was 350 points, in 6E was 378
• Weasel (mentalist) in 5E was 350 points, in 6E was 406
• Willard (animal control) in 5E was 350 points, in 6E was 388
• Willard's summoned Rat Pack in 5E was 300 points, in 6E was 350

Hope all that helps.

(Edit to add:  this was keeping all characteristics the same, and powers as close to the same as possible when converting to 6E.)

[Ninja-Bear]

Yes, very insightful Bolo. I'm looking for ideas to get a feel for converting Villains from standard Champions to Low level instead of just using low-leveled villains as is from Standard villain books.

[assault]

The easiest way is to design the PCs, then adjust the villains to match them.

 

That said, I'm not particularly convinced that 6e has had much effect on stat inflation (for superheroes). Just because stats end up being more expensive doesn't make them not worthwhile. It's tempting to shave the extra points from elsewhere, especially skills.

 

There are also balance issues. If characters are hit more often, they need to be able to suck up more damage. Obviously this can be partly offset by tactics, but a lot of normals are going to be aiming a lot of lead at you.

 

Finally, somebody is going to work out what you can do with Lightning Reflexes in 6e. Just what a brick with "superspeed" needs.

[BoloOfEarth]

That said, I'm not particularly convinced that 6e has had much effect on stat inflation (for superheroes). Just because stats end up being more expensive doesn't make them not worthwhile. It's tempting to shave the extra points from elsewhere, especially skills.

 

Finally, somebody is going to work out what you can do with Lightning Reflexes in 6e. Just what a brick with "superspeed" needs.

 

It's not the stats being more expensive overall that reduces stat inflation; it's the removal of figured characteristics that removes most of the benefit of inflating stats like DEX, or STR for a character for whom a high STR makes little sense.

 

Example:  In past editions, you might have energy projectors with 28 STR, simply because the extra 18 STR gave you 4 PD, 4 REC, and 9 STUN makes it mathematically attractive.  Without that effect in 6E (you'd have to pay 4 points for the extra PD, 4 points for the extra REC, and 4.5 for the additional STUN, in addition to the 18 you spend on the extra STR) there's less reason to increase STR unless that's part of the character concept.

 

Similarly, having a 28 DEX (as opposed to, say, an 18 DEX) was attractive in 4E and 5E because that extra 10 DEX gave you +1 SPD, +3 OCV, and +3 DCV, in addition to +2 to DEX skills and raising your position on a speed sheet.  Not a bad deal for 30 points.  In 6E, however, you'd have to pay 10 points for the extra SPD, 15 points for the additional OCV, and another 15 points for the extra DCV.

 

(assault, I'm figuring you may already realize the above, but someone who is used to running 4E or 5E may not, which is why I spelled it all out.)

 

As to your point on Lightning Reflexes, I agree that could be open to a bit of abuse.  I've created numerous NPCs who have relatively low DEX's, but have Lightning Reflexes to some level.  However, you don't get the benefit of higher DEX rolls, so it's not quite as attractive.

[assault]

It's not the stats being more expensive overall that reduces stat inflation; it's the removal of figured characteristics that removes most of the benefit of inflating stats like DEX, or STR for a character for whom a high STR makes little sense.

 

Example:  In past editions, you might have energy projectors with 28 STR, simply because the extra 18 STR gave you 4 PD, 4 REC, and 9 STUN makes it mathematically attractive.  Without that effect in 6E (you'd have to pay 4 points for the extra PD, 4 points for the extra REC, and 4.5 for the additional STUN, in addition to the 18 you spend on the extra STR) there's less reason to increase STR unless that's part of the character concept.

 

Similarly, having a 28 DEX (as opposed to, say, an 18 DEX) was attractive in 4E and 5E because that extra 10 DEX gave you +1 SPD, +3 OCV, and +3 DCV, in addition to +2 to DEX skills and raising your position on a speed sheet.  Not a bad deal for 30 points.  In 6E, however, you'd have to pay 10 points for the extra SPD, 15 points for the additional OCV, and another 15 points for the extra DCV.

 

The benefits of inflating STR have definitely been reduced, but not so much the benefits of inflating DEX and CON.

 

The key thing with DEX, naturally, is that OCV and DCV have been split out. Most of that, however, is offset by the increased point totals. There's still a slight premium to pay if you want to maintain high OCV/DCV levels, but that usually be managed if you are committed enough. Otherwise, DEX now costs 2 points rather than 3, and you have to buy SPD separately. No real change. Past a certain point, Lightning Reflexes becomes attractive instead of DEX.

 

The reduction in the cost of CON roughly compensates for the cost of the no longer figured characteristics. Because of CON's importance in coping with damage, buying as much of it as possible is still a good idea.

 

To sum up then, I don't think there is any real impact on characteristic "inflation" within the range of values characters normally buy. (Aside from STR). The only way you are going to get characters running around with 13-15 DEX etc is if you apply hard limits to them. The "economics" of the system doesn't tend to do it for you.

 

Which, by the way, suggests a thread for characters that are built with restricted characteristics, but use the resulting savings to not suck.

 

Buying up STR becomes a luxury for characters that don't rely on it as their main attack form, but if you have a few extra points, and your characteristics are otherwise OK, it's still a nice sneaky thing to have.

[Ninja-Bear]

Assault this is why I'm asking about low level. To get a feel for where you don't need high stats but can take on skilled normals.

[BoloOfEarth]

The reduction in the cost of CON roughly compensates for the cost of the no longer figured characteristics. Because of CON's importance in coping with damage, buying as much of it as possible is still a good idea.

 

To sum up then, I don't think there is any real impact on characteristic "inflation" within the range of values characters normally buy. (Aside from STR). The only way you are going to get characters running around with 13-15 DEX etc is if you apply hard limits to them. The "economics" of the system doesn't tend to do it for you.

 

I'd agree with the second sentence on CON above, but not necessarily the first.  It used to effectively be a zero-cost item, if you paid anything for the CON-related figured characteristics.  Heck, you might even save points by raising your CON in 4E / 5E, depending on the breakpoints.  Sure, the cost of CON in 6E is half what it was, but really all you're getting from increasing CON is protection from getting Stunned.  No CON-related skill rolls. 

 

As to the next paragraph quoted, the part I bolded is key.  At least in my experience, stat inflation in 4E / 5E caused stuff like DEX and CON to go above (sometimes far above) the range many characters would normally buy.  You'd have 28 or 33 DEX energy blasters, simply because raising DEX was better than buying CSLs and raising skill rolls.  (And there are a lot of useful DEX-based skills.)

 

In my current 6E game, the economics have certainly kept stats down.  In characters with over 100 XP (so currently over 500 points), the highest DEX is the semi-brick / semi-speedster, at 20.  Four characters are at 18 DEX, one at 14 DEX, and one at 13 DEX (though that last is the mentalist, and I use her EGO for determining speed sheet order).  The only ones with STR above 15 are the brick and the semi-brick / semi-speedster.  CON ranges from 20-25 (with the caveat that the two brick type characters have either Damage Reduction or Damage Negation to help them avoid being Stunned).

The problem I'm having is defense inflation.  As soon as they get hit with an unusual attack (any AVAD or Adjustment power), they scramble to buy up the defense against said attack.  All of them have Power and Mental Defenses (5-15 Power and 10-15 Mental) and at least one safe environment Life Support.   Keep in mind that it's rare for even one of them to go unconscious during a fight, and they only really lost one battle.  It's kinda amusing, really. 

[Nothere]

When I was first introduced to Champions the gm had one simple rule. It's all about 3's and 8's

[BoloOfEarth]

Assault this is why I'm asking about low level. To get a feel for where you don't need high stats but can take on skilled normals.

 

The decoupling of OCV and DCV from DEX, plus Lightning Reflexes, means that you can easily have even low-level heroes able to take on skilled normals. 

 

A high-defense character can save points by not buying up DCV, trusting in his defenses to protect him.

 

Someone with lower defenses might buy up his DCV, as well as some Lightning Reflexes to get the drop on the goon squad.  But he doesn't need 23 DEX to do that; heck, a 13 DEX with +5 Lightning Reflexes is probably overkill vs. skilled normals.

 

My advice is to play around with different values of OCV and DCV.  They don't need to be the same value, or proportional to the DEX.  (A 15 DEX, 7 OCV, 5 DCV is perfectly fine for, say, a brick or an armored battlesuit type.)  The same goes for OMCV, DMCV, and EGO.    (A strong-willed guy could have 18 EGO, 3 OMCV, 3 DMCV.)

[Ninja-Bear]

I do have a rough build of pcs (5th aon). ? They are 200 pts. They are basic Golden Age style. Skills are light on purpose. The main scthick is 50 ACT. and each secondary is around 40 but i look at effective vs hard cap. We have a speedster, brick and stretching archetypes. I built them all speed 5. I like giving them a 2 phase advantage. My daughters main character is a super villain (she is running it and I'm playing with the boys) is speed 7 built more on standard level character since this will be the Master Villainess.

[assault]

I'd agree with the second sentence on CON above, but not necessarily the first.  It used to effectively be a zero-cost item, if you paid anything for the CON-related figured characteristics.  Heck, you might even save points by raising your CON in 4E / 5E, depending on the breakpoints.  Sure, the cost of CON in 6E is half what it was, but really all you're getting from increasing CON is protection from getting Stunned.  No CON-related skill rolls. 

 

...

CON ranges from 20-25 (with the caveat that the two brick type characters have either Damage Reduction or Damage Negation to help them avoid being Stunned).

 

CON is still a "zero-cost" thing.

 

In 5e, 20 points would buy you 10 CON, 2 ED, 2 REC, 20 END and 5 STUN.

In 6e, that costs (10) + (2) + (2) + (4) + (2.5) = 20.5 points.

 

Essentially the same. The 6e character might lose a point of STUN.

 

Let's add another 8 points of CON. That will take the character up to 28 - pretty normal brick stuff.

In 5e, that's another 8 CON, 2 ED, 2 REC, 16 END and 4 STUN.

In 6e, that costs (8) + (2) + (2) + (3.2) + (2) = 17.2 points. (= 17, buying 15 END rather than 16)

 

That's a point's difference. Not enough to change anything.

 

The same budgeting logic applies to CON in 6e as it does in 5e. You get the same functionality for the same cost.

 

Obviously if you burn big chunks of points on Damage Reduction or Damage Negation you can get away with a lower CON, but the investment in those powers is a separate question.

[assault]

As to the next paragraph quoted, the part I bolded is key.  At least in my experience, stat inflation in 4E / 5E caused stuff like DEX and CON to go above (sometimes far above) the range many characters would normally buy.  You'd have 28 or 33 DEX energy blasters, simply because raising DEX was better than buying CSLs and raising skill rolls.  (And there are a lot of useful DEX-based skills.)

 

For clarity (to other readers) the part you bolded was:

"To sum up then, I don't think there is any real impact on characteristic "inflation" within the range of values characters normally buy."

 

I think we can see what the issue is now. We simply have different definitions of "the range many characters would normally buy".

 

For me, under 1-5e editions that means 20-30 DEX (and 4-7 SPD). Outside that is unusual, but can be justified.

 

I find that the same range still applies under 6e. The split out of OCV and DCV puts a bit of downward pressure on, but the benefits of "I go first" and high DEX rolls work strongly against that.

[assault]

Assault this is why I'm asking about low level. To get a feel for where you don't need high stats but can take on skilled normals.

 

Skilled normals are relatively easy. You're usually only taking on one or two at a time. The problem is normals in general.

 

As soon as you have a bunch of guys blasting away with automatic weapons you have a problem.

 

Some characters will be bulletproof, and carry on as before. Others won't be, and are going to have to burn phases not being hit. And remember, phases will be more scarce.

 

Worse, they actually will be hit. This will increase the temptation to buy up defenses, leading to a new inflationary spiral.

 

The problem hasn't been solved. It's just been moved.

 

And you really need to ask yourself: is there actually a problem in the first place?

[Ninja-Bear]

I have non-armored heroes take combat luck-one level to lessen killing attacks. I am considering changing all KA to Normal w/AVADs.

[Tom]

I have non-armored heroes take combat luck-one level to lessen killing attacks. I am considering changing all KA to Normal w/AVADs.

 

If you're looking for a low/non-lethal game (which tends to be fairly genre at the Gold/Silver/Bronze, and probably a good idea with kids in any event), staying away from KAs is probably a good idea.

 

Changing 'normal' guns from KAs to RAs vs AVAD (rPD/rED) should make them plenty dangerous (since you'll only be applying appropriate resistant defense against the STUN) without littering the landscape with bleeding bodies.

 

(Note:  I use 'RA'  {Ranged Attack} in place of 'Blast' to satisfy my own sense of the proper ordering of the universe)

[Doc Democracy]

I think that the first thing you need to do is not worry about point totals but instead what you mean by a low-powered game. I could run a pretty high powered game on low point totals but the characters would not be broad or deeply detailed.

 

To my mind a low-powered game means that the characters are better than normals and paranormal in some aspect (or Aspects) but they would need to worry about guns, about being seriously outnumbered and that they should not expect to be able to barrel their way through challenges.

 

This would mean my martial artist might be exceptionally fast and quick and able to deliver more damage with a punch than any normal human might expect to but being caught unawares by a thug with a sub-machine gun is a seriously life threatening situation. My Brick might be able to lift serious tonnage and to throw people around like rag dolls but he is not going to bounce bullets from his chest. My energy blaster might come with flight and force-field but his energy blasts might be less damaging than if he was carrying a magnum 457.

 

I do not expect my characters to be all rounders. They will need to act tactically at all times. Like a real life original X-men. Cyclops can blast stuff but he has no defences or movement powers. Angel has wings but not much else. Beast is super-agile and strong but has no significant defences. Jean Grey is psychically strong but nothing beyond that.

 

I played a great game where each player was built as an agent - so more than a match for any two normal thugs in a fight due to that but were enhanced with one signature effect. I was open to each player describing that to me and then I built that regardless of points. One player wanted to be invulnerable to damage, one wanted super-speed (all about the ability to move and do lots of things and have auto fire on his punch than anything else), one wanted to be able to remotely affect machinery another wanted to be invisible at will. It made all of them individual and distinct. Each of them had something they could contribute the others could not but no-one could do without the others. It made for a very different game, even though it felt like superheroes, it did not feel like our usual Champions game.

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

Doc as to points I'm using that as a guideline not as a hardline. I'm though making sure that they have some sort of defenses. The game is to be fun not realistic. : )

[Doc Democracy]

Absolutely, and for a game where killing attacks are deadly, as GM, you use killing attacks less often. Most guards are armed with night sticks or single shot small arms. You now have an easy signal to the players. When you note guards have automatic weapons, they immediately know to tread carefully.

 

However, fun has to be key element. I wasn't saying your game had to be like mine, just that a quick overview of what you mean by low-powered and the key tropes is a better place to start than point totals...

 

 

Doc

[BoloOfEarth]

CON is still a "zero-cost" thing.

 

In 5e, 20 points would buy you 10 CON, 2 ED, 2 REC, 20 END and 5 STUN.

In 6e, that costs (10) + (2) + (2) + (4) + (2.5) = 20.5 points.

 

First, I absolutely concede your well-made point on CON cost.  It is still effectively zero cost. 

 

In my experience running 6E Champions, however, my players spending XP don't tend to increase characteristics across the board like that. They buy up one, maybe two characteristics when they spend chunks of XP.  I still believe, in older editions, there was more of a tendency (almost a compulsion) to buy up CON to bump everything up.  Though admittedly I've only seen how my players have done things, both in the past and in 6E.  That may not be the case with others.

 

For clarity (to other readers) the part you bolded was:

"To sum up then, I don't think there is any real impact on characteristic "inflation" within the range of values characters normally buy."

 

I think we can see what the issue is now. We simply have different definitions of "the range many characters would normally buy".

 

For me, under 1-5e editions that means 20-30 DEX (and 4-7 SPD). Outside that is unusual, but can be justified.

 

I find that the same range still applies under 6e. The split out of OCV and DCV puts a bit of downward pressure on, but the benefits of "I go first" and high DEX rolls work strongly against that.

 

You're also right in us having different definitions.  To me, under 1-5E, 15-25 DEX is normal, with most falling into the 'sweet spots' of 18 and 23.  A speedster might have 28 DEX, maybe 29 or 30 if he wants to beat out most other speedsters.  And normal SPD to me is 4-6.  And as you say, outside that is unusual but may be justified by character concept. 

[Ninja-Bear]

All good Doc ; )

[Ninja-Bear]

Also Doc the reason I'm keeping it low is that in the beginning I'm focusing on archetypical power sets. I don't need a lot of points. However the kids will be rewarded with more points for experience. I'm probably going to do this as learn one new power. Really think Enemies I & II for builds.

[Ninja-Bear]

Seriously skills will be broader. PS will cover KS no need to duplicate. I'm also thinking PS: Doctor will cover paramedics. Also no need to buy license perk.