Doubt about the magic system

[dmjalund]

the size of a slot of a multipower a power fills is based on it's Active Points. no amount of limitations will change that.

[Hugh Neilson]

7 hours ago, dmjalund said:

the size of a slot of a multipower a power fills is based on it's Active Points. no amount of limitations will change that.

If you read GoldenAge's linked magic system, he has specifically altered that for his system.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[GoldenAge]

Hugh Nelson -
Per your previous question: I have opted to grant exceptions to the Active Point restriction on a case-by-case basis — as long as the Real Point cost of the spell fits within the reserve or Pool. (per FH 5e pg. 267). I should reword it to be more understandable.

Its true that purchasing a VPP with a huge Control Cost just to cover potential character growth could result in lost XP (and frustration)... But any level of power is attainable by anyone (assuming that they're connected to the correct Caste of Reality). If a character purchases a 240 Control Cost in hopes of eventually gaining a high enough Order Bonuses to utilize said VPP at its max value all the time, so be it... How, the character can STILL access the full AP of his spells right now... with help and time -

Suppose Billy the Acolyte, follower of RAY, Goddess of Sunbeam (Spirit Caste), purchases his religious domain as a VPP with a Control Cost of 240. He starts the Game with an Magic Affinity Roll (SPIRIT) of 11-, an Order Bonus of +3 (due to his teachings and devotion to The Church of RAY). Of course it'll be a looooong time before he can dash that Tarask with a single Ray of Light spell (if ever!).

But what if Billy the Acolyte gathered his fellow disciples (5 brothers) and began praying to RAY for the next 24 hours... At Sunrise they rise together, channeling their combined holy might through Billy the Acolyte, who focuses it into a terrible beam of righteousness aimed at the monstrosity destroying their holy city... That'd be a HUGH bonus to Billy the Acolyte's Magic Affinity Roll (assuming all Billy's brothers had the same Order Bonus and rolled average) --- Including Billy the Acolyte, that'd be +35 to Billy's Aspect Roll!!!
[Billy's Magic Aspect Roll = 11, + Billy's Order Bonus of +3, +7 for xtra time... Complimentary Skill Bonuses from 5 Brothers; Base Order Roll for each acolyte = 11+3, and xtra time for each acolyte of +7, Each acolyte succeeds by 10. These are all Complimentary Skill Rolls so divide the success by 2, and add the results to Billy the Acolyte's Magic Affinity Roll for a total Complimentary Skill Bonus +5 from each Brother for a combined +25.]

DESTROYING RAY OF RAY - 16d6 RKA; 240 Active Points.
Billy's Magic Affinity (SPIRIT) Roll = 11-
Billy's Order Bonus = +3
Billy's xtra time bonus = +7
+25 (Complimentary Skill Bonus from 5 Brothers helping for a full day)
- 24 (Active Point Penalty of -1/10 AP)
That's a total of +11 on Billy the Acolyte's Roll!!!

Billy the Acolyte will assuredly smite the Tarask!!! (Better hope he doesn't roll a Critical Miss) 🤣

 

Was it worth the original expenditure on Billy's Control Cost (240/2 AP)? Ask Billy!!!!

Please let me know if I'm getting something wrong. I'm an Artist, not a Mathematician, Jim!

Edited August 12, 2023 by GoldenAge

[Doc Democracy]

I like the idea of attunement.  I like the idea of being arcane.  I like the idea of your base caste profile improving due to order bonuses, giving a magical life path to a character which has in-game effects.

 

Hugh is right though, there is an incentive to maximise your arcane profile, so perhaps there should be a flat cost for 11 across the board, allowing the player to adjust levels, moving one up at the cost of moving another down. Another flat cost to get 14 across the board with no adjustment possible (this should be high, to reflect the scarcity of potential arch-mages).

 

I can understand some artifacts only being available to those with compatible castes.  If I understand, items with innate magic can be used by anyone without attunement?  Does that mean they are lower powered or more rare than those whose magic is not innate? Do innate items interfere with each other if they are not magically compatible?

 

I also have questions about the attunement roll.  There is nothing about failing a roll, consequences, or cost to making a roll.  So what is to stop a player rolling again and again until they attune? Can they get bonuses by going to magically appropriate places, and taking additional time?

 

I noticed a typo on page 7, under the Determining Order Bonuses, the first three words look to be rogue...

 

Getting on to the rest of it now.

 

Doc

Edited August 12, 2023 by Doc Democracy

[GoldenAge]

The mere fact that its possible to turn a regular spell into a massive ritualistic spell is a major plus of the HERO System!!!

Billy the Acolyte could have a normal costing VPP (say 25 Pool/80 Control Cost)... But Billy knows that the RAY OF RAY spell is only limited by the spiritual energy used to cast the spell. Allowing him to break the Control Cost AP cap rule will leave open the option for an amazing cinematic event like the one above!

HERO ROCKS!

 

NOTE: I edited the previous post, so give it a reread to be sure you didn't miss anything)

 

On Innate:

Yes, if a magic item is purchased as Innate, anyone can use it. It's a net +1/2 Advantage since it negates the limitations of Castes of Reality and Affinity Rolls, and helps define magic item use.

On Attunement:
A character can try as often as they like, but items often have a very high Active Point value and require xtra time to offset the -1/10 AP attunement penalty.
GMs can certainly apply environmental or ant other bonuses to Attunement Ross in the same way they can any Skill Roll.

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by GoldenAge

[Doc Democracy]

9 minutes ago, GoldenAge said:

On Innate:

Yes, if a magic item is purchased as Innate, anyone can use it. It's a net +1/2 Advantage since it negates the limitations of Castes, and helps define magic item use.

 

If all magical items are bought with points, the innate is a real limitation.  If magical items can be stolen or found, then point cost is simply a balance thing for the GM.

[GoldenAge]

GOT IT! Thanks!!!

 

 

 

 

Magic Items are NOT Equipment and are purchased with points. The Innate Advantage allows the circulation of magic to be universal, but someone, somewhere had to make (pay for) that magic item at its creation. It's not easy in the 9 Realms to get custom magic items made, but I allow for fungible XP. If a player wishes to "donate" XP to a wizard, then the wizard can use that XP to create the item.

Magic Items have been around for many millennia. Unfortunately, folks don't last so long, so there is a natural abundance of magic in some parts of the world and availability just about everywhere. The 9 Realms of Epoch is High Fantasy!

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by GoldenAge

[GoldenAge]

Sorry, didn't mean to usurp this thread. My bad.

[Doc Democracy]

30 minutes ago, GoldenAge said:

Magic Items are NOT Equipment and are purchased with points.

 

30 minutes ago, GoldenAge said:

Magic Items have been around for many millennia. Unfortunately, folks don't last so long, so there is a natural abundance of magic in some parts of the world

 

I am wondering how this works in play.  If I come across an ancient blade, can I pick it up and use it?  If I kill the current owner, can I pick it up and use it?

 

Will you require players to pay to keep such items? How will you take items away from them?

 

I might be inclined to allow them to attune an item for possibly 1/10 of the cost to buy it (which would be forfeit if the item is lost/broken) and to make it theirs by paying full price (lost/broken items find their way back to the character,  or points are restored). If points are not paid, they might expect someone else to claim ownership, steal the item, or for it to draw unwanted attention from "powers".

 

Doc

 

 

24 minutes ago, GoldenAge said:

Sorry, didn't mean to usurp this thread. My bad.

 

I think threads more than six months old become vacant, and open to new users!  🙂

[GoldenAge]

To take your example...

You stumble across Stormbringer (yes, THAT sword)... No one is around... The power could be YOURS!

1. Acquire the Artifact

• At this stage it is simply a 2d6 Bastard Sword (being magical, it can be used against creatures immune to Mundane attacks). If you have Weapon Familiarity Bastard Swords, you can use it (but not access its magical abilities). You can use it even if you don't have the appropriate WF, but will accrue the appropriate minuses.

• If the Arcane Artifact is built as Innate, no Attunement is necessary and you may use the weapon, gaining all of its magical powers.

2. Attune to the item if you share Affinity with the same Caste(s) if Reality (make a Magic Affinity Roll) and gain all of its power!
• Attunement requires a Magic Affinity Roll, minus 1/10 AP of the Arcane Item. 

• If the Artifact has links to multiple Castes (Srormbringer has BODY and SPIRIT) and you share both, you can use you choice as a Complimentary Skill to the Magic Affinity Roll you've chosen to utilize (probably the highest roll). 

• If you have points in an Order(s) that directly links to the Artifact (in this case you are a disciple of Arioch) you may add your order Bonus to the Affinity Roll you'll be using to Attune.

• If you have Orders that tangentially link to the Caste of the Artifact (Orders based on BODY and SPIRIT, but not necessarily linked to Stormbringer) you may add their Order Bonuses to the Magic Affinity Roll per GM approval.
• If you take extra time you may add those bonuses to you Attunement Roll
• If there are any environmental bonuses or complimentary help, you may add that to your Attunement Roll

So

Stormbringer was created on 500 Active Points.
To Attune to Stormbringer, you must have Affinity to the BODY or SPIRIT Castes (or both).
Your Attunement Roll (based on Magic Affinity + Bonuses) is made at -50 on 3d6.

Whelp, it's gonna take you, a ton of research, a horde of Chaos underlings, and about a year to attune to this thing, but have faith, you'll get there. 🤣🤣🤣

 

 

On the other hand, if you pick up a simple +3 sword you can probably Attune in a single phase. (Attunement takes a Full Action).

 

It's all about scale, power and experience - Characters with more experience (or "Higher level") will be able to Attune to more powerful things faster utilizing their wide array of Orders, and other bonuses. Meanwhile lower level characters might take a minute or longer to Attune to a +3 Sword. And simple Mundane fighters and Thieves might be relegated to magic that is purchased Innate.

Edited August 12, 2023 by GoldenAge

[Doc Democracy]

Have you considered using attuned (or innate) items in attending a new item.  So you might have a+1 sword and a +2 dagger.  You want attune thus +4 plate armour with some additional abilities.  It is just out of reach but by using these items, attunement is attainable but those items are drained of magic whether or not the roll is successful...

 

That might help explain why there are not mountains of minor items, they have all been cannibalised to attune more powerful items.

[GoldenAge]

That's not a bad idea! I'd leave that up to the creativity of the player and GM cooperation. My players are always coming up with interesting takes that will help them succeed.

Unfortunately (fortunately???) opening the "sacrificial" route may lead to "other" sacrifices being attempted. Not that I'm saying it wouldn't work. 🤣  🤣   🤣   🤣 

Edited August 12, 2023 by GoldenAge

[Hugh Neilson]

17 hours ago, GoldenAge said:

To take your example...

You stumble across Stormbringer (yes, THAT sword)... No one is around... The power could be YOURS!

 

 

I think part of the question was what happened to the points paid.  Not so much an issue for Stormbringer, but if Arnie the Arch-Mage (PC invested 50 points into a magic item, is burgled at the inn and it is now held by Ronny Rogue, who sells it to Winnie Witch:

 

 - does Winnie have to pay 50 CP?  Answer from above is no?

 - does Arnie get the 50 CP back, or tough luck?  Harsh, but that's the risk you take with Innate - go earn another 50 xp?

 - from your comments, another character can contribute the CP (and, if not, why would wizards create magical swords or armour that they aren't likely to use anyway) - how does the rule apply to them?

 - why would I pay for a +1/2 advantage that makes it possible for me to lose the item?

 

Limitations for powers that can be lost also begs certain abuses, such as a character spending a ton of points on Innate items, giving them out to other PCs and retiring so a new character comes in (or just dying and leaving all those CP behind to the other players).  The "everything is innate" character who is vastly overpowered until the items get removed, at which time the player sets out to bring in a new character, is also an issue.  Maybe items only become fully innate when their creator dies; the creator always maintains some level of control over who can use HER magicks.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[Hugh Neilson]

18 hours ago, GoldenAge said:

The mere fact that its possible to turn a regular spell into a massive ritualistic spell is a major plus of the HERO System!!!

Billy the Acolyte could have a normal costing VPP (say 25 Pool/80 Control Cost)... But Billy knows that the RAY OF RAY spell is only limited by the spiritual energy used to cast the spell. Allowing him to break the Control Cost AP cap rule will leave open the option for an amazing cinematic event like the one above!

 

I am confused by the statement that "Within the 9 Realms, Pool caps on Active Points have been eliminated and a spell or ability may exist within a framework as long as the Real Point cost of the spell fits within the reserve or Pool."  This suggests that Billy is not required to pay CP for his AP limit.

 

18 hours ago, GoldenAge said:

On Innate:

Yes, if a magic item is purchased as Innate, anyone can use it. It's a net +1/2 Advantage since it negates the limitations of Castes of Reality and Affinity Rolls, and helps define magic item use.

On Attunement:
A character can try as often as they like, but items often have a very high Active Point value and require xtra time to offset the -1/10 AP attunement penalty.
GMs can certainly apply environmental or ant other bonuses to Attunement Ross in the same way they can any Skill Roll.

 

If I need a 3 to make the roll without extra time, and I have SPD 3, I can roll 15 times per minute.  The odds of rolling a 3 is 1 in 216.  The character should be able to attune in under 15 minutes on average.  Why spend an hour for a +5 and need an 8- (25%) for his one roll in an hour?

[DeleteThisAccount]

Personally, I always treat magic items as both equipment and not. If I'm playing in a heroic game for a fantasy campaign, then I can just buy equipment with cash and it is able to be taken from me longterm or broken and not replaced.

 

So, if I buy "my father's sword" as a 2d6 HKA with an OAF, using my points, I can have it pretty much all the time, and it'll be fairly safe from harm, just because I want it to remain in play as a part of my character arc. This is despite it being a perfectly normal sword.

 

If I then also pick up an enchanted dagger from an enemy and use it until I lose it or it breaks, I don't need to spend points on it. It is a piece of equipment, just one that does a neat magical thing (some sort of bonus to OCV, maybe). 

 

If I also buy my mother's "amulet of love" (+5rPD, OIF) and pay an amount of points for it, and use it regularly, and detail it as being an important part of my backstory, then that is also not just a piece of equipment, but not just because this happens to be magical.

 

If I then buy a fancy boiled leather breastplate (+5rPD, OIF), which is not at all magical, and I pay only a monetary cost, no points, then it will be merely equipment and can definitely be lost, stolen, or even destroyed outright.

[GoldenAge]

On 8/13/2023 at 10:15 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I think part of the question was what happened to the points paid.  Not so much an issue for Stormbringer, but if Arnie the Arch-Mage (PC invested 50 points into a magic item, is burgled at the inn and it is now held by Ronny Rogue, who sells it to Winnie Witch:

 

 - does Winnie have to pay 50 CP?  Answer from above is no?

 - does Arnie get the 50 CP back, or tough luck?  Harsh, but that's the risk you take with Innate - go earn another 50 xp?

 - from your comments, another character can contribute the CP (and, if not, why would wizards create magical swords or armour that they aren't likely to use anyway) - how does the rule apply to them?

 - why would I pay for a +1/2 advantage that makes it possible for me to lose the item?

 

Limitations for powers that can be lost also begs certain abuses, such as a character spending a ton of points on Innate items, giving them out to other PCs and retiring so a new character comes in (or just dying and leaving all those CP behind to the other players).  The "everything is innate" character who is vastly overpowered until the items get removed, at which time the player sets out to bring in a new character, is also an issue.  Maybe items only become fully innate when their creator dies; the creator always maintains some level of control over who can use HER magicks.

The standard 6e rules say: "The GM should decide how the Focus gets replaced based on the special effects involved and the exact circumstances. Replacing a Focus can even form the basis of another adventure. However, regardless of the method used, replacing or repairing a Focus does not cost the character any more Character Points."

In our games we've always allowed a character to pick up and utilize any focus that's use makes sense (Accessibility only dictates acquiring the focus while in combat and that may not always be the case). Once the focus is secured it is like any other equipment and need not be paid for. But, if the focus is Arcane, it must be attuned.

So, Winnie would receive a reimbursement of the full amount of Real Points they spent to create their (recently stolen) focus and may use them however they see fit (within the limits of the current story, of course)... Or, they could quest to get their Arcane Artifact back if that seem more appropriate (to the GM or player).
Any character that donates CPs loses those CPs permanently. But, that only applies to focuses created for characters other than the donator. Having an Arcane Artificer create a focus for your character is not considered a donation since you retain the focus when the crafting is complete.

Edited September 8, 2023 by GoldenAge

[GoldenAge]

On 8/13/2023 at 10:22 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I am confused by the statement that "Within the 9 Realms, Pool caps on Active Points have been eliminated and a spell or ability may exist within a framework as long as the Real Point cost of the spell fits within the reserve or Pool."  This suggests that Billy is not required to pay CP for his AP limit.

 

 

If I need a 3 to make the roll without extra time, and I have SPD 3, I can roll 15 times per minute.  The odds of rolling a 3 is 1 in 216.  The character should be able to attune in under 15 minutes on average.  Why spend an hour for a +5 and need an 8- (25%) for his one roll in an hour?

 

On 8/13/2023 at 10:22 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

I am confused by the statement that "Within the 9 Realms, Pool caps on Active Points have been eliminated and a spell or ability may exist within a framework as long as the Real Point cost of the spell fits within the reserve or Pool."  This suggests that Billy is not required to pay CP for his AP limit.

Sorry if I was unclear. This is what I was trying to do...
Per Fantasy Hero 6e pg. 267: "Another problem that sometimes arises with spell Multipowers and VPPs is the Active Point cap imposed by the Framework. A lot of spells are complex, with several Powers chained together or other impressive effects that end up costing a lot of Active Points. To afford even one of these spells, a character may have to buy a larger Framework than he generally needs... and then he has the temptation to increase some of his other spells to take advantage of the inflated Active Point ceiling. If you find that this is a problem in your campaign, you could consider granting exceptions to the Active Point restriction on a case-by-case basis — as long as the Real Point cost of the spell fits within the reserve or Pool, a character can still buy the spell through his Framework."

Per your second question -  Attunement is a Full Phase Action (our arbitrary ruling). You may certainly try and try to Attune to an Arcane Artifact if that's how you like to play Fantasy Hero. We, however, try to add cinematic sensibility to our game whenever possible, min/maxing percentages be damned. 😁

[Hugh Neilson]

So does Billy pay CP for his AP limit, or doesn't he?  Recall that, in 6e, I can purchase a 100 point pool with a 10 AP limit - the two were de-linked, unlike prior editions.  So if Billy buys a 50 point pool with a 10 AP cap (55 points before limitations on the control cost, so a significant investment), are his spells limited to 10 AP, or unlimited based on the statement that pool caps do not apply? What is the minimum he can pay for his control cost?

 

To the second, my 3 SPD character can spend a full phase action 15 times per minute.  Whether he spends an extra hour to get a bonus or just keeps rolling once per phase with no bonus, he's trying and trying to Attune to an Arcane Artifact.  As to cinematic sensibility, when I watched the D&D movie, the Sorcerer seemed to try several times, ultimately succeeding.  Was that a bunch of successive rolls or just a very few with extra time?  They both could fit with the narrative on the screen.  A third option would be that the screen narrative reflected a much more robust attunement system involving ongoing challenges much like combat gradually becoming more attuned to the artifact until that last breakthrough is made and the character is fully attuned and can make use of the item's magical abilities. Such a system could even allow for partial attunement (whether access to some, but not all, abilities, only a certain level of power, activation rules, limitations of some other form or any other model one may prefer).

 

You can also spend extra time in combat to get a to hit bonus.  Bracing.  It's seldom done, since an attack now and one in my next phase carries a much greater potential for success.