Power Build: Into the Abyss

[Demiurgos]

I thought I'd post here for feedback from the HERO Games board denizens.

 

I was trying to build a power in HERO System, and there were a couple of things I've been mulling over. First and foremost, HERO System is an effects-based system, so you determine what it does, and choose the appropriate effect(s) from there. Okay, there are three different effects this power has:

 

1) The first effect is an earthquake. In both 5e and 6e, this effect is built the exact same way, with the only difference being the name of Energy Blast (5e) or Blast (6e):

 

5e: Energy Blast 10d6, Explosion (+½), Personal Immunity (+¼) (87 Active Points); No Range (-½), Only Affects Targets On The Ground (-¼), Only Does Knockdown, Not Knockback (-0).

 

6e: Blast 10d6, Area Of Effect (18m Radius Explosion; +½), Personal Immunity (+¼) (87 Active Points); No Range (-½), Only Affects Targets On The Ground (-¼), Only Does Knockdown, Not Knockback (-0).

 

So that's pretty straightforward. Perhaps falling objects might be included, but that would depend on where it was happening.

 

2) The second effect is that the ground opens up in an abyss. There's a pit build in both 5e and 6e that, again, are built exactly the same way:

 

5e: Tunneling 8” through DEF 8 materials, Usable As Attack (does not affect characters with Flight or Gliding; +1), Ranged (+½) (100 Active Points);  Only To Form Pits Beneath Targets (-1).

 

6e: Tunneling 16m through PD 8 materials, Usable As Attack (does not affect characters with Flight; +1¼), Ranged (+½) (88 Active Points); Only To Form Pits Beneath Targets (-1).

 

The above build is for a pit, while this power is for an abyss, so it needs to be considerably bigger and deeper. The character using this power is actually going to be standing in the center of the area, which is unaffected, which would be mechanically represented by Hole In The Middle, and Ranged would be changed to Area of Effect. What's happening is after the quake, the area around the character is opening up into an abyss, and everything standing in the area falls into it. In the center of the area stands a pillar where the ground is in tact (the unaffected area), where the character is standing.

 

I don't know if Desolidification, Usable As Attack to desolidify the ground in an area around the character (who has Hole In The Middle and Personal Immunity), given the SFX as the ground opening up would be a valid alternate approach. If Change Environment wasn't explicitly said to "create relatively subtle effects," it might have been a possibility. Transform seems to offer itself as a possibility, transforming the earth into a void. The earth falling away could be part of the transformation as it turns into thin air, which would also explain the lack of earth beneath the surface. Or, since it's actually a published build by the makers of HERO System, I could just go with Tunneling, Usable As Attack, Ranged (after thinking about it, Ranged is needed since the character isn't moving through the tunnel as it's being created, which is explicitly said to be what's being done), add Area of Effect and change the size. Looking at the published build, it has the limitation Only To Form Pits Beneath Target, so it seems Indirect isn't needed to define the point of origin of the tunnel as beneath him (which is what Tunneling is usually used for anyway).

 

3) The third, and final effect, is that anyone/thing that fell into the abyss fall and hits rocks at the bottom. The first thought was to simply model the damage of the rocks, but while it would be a Killing Attack in game terms, I wasn't sure if it would be a ranged RKA. But since it's an effects-based system, you disregard the name, so I thought that if you throw a knife at someone, or plant a spear into the ground and knock someone onto it from a distance above the ground, it's damage that involves a distance (throwing a spear at someone or "throwing" someone, so to speak, at the spear both have the same result), and clearly isn't an HKA. The second thought was simply to consult the falling rules, which would make it a matter of looking at the table for the velocity and the distance of the fall based on the depth of the pit. In which case it wouldn't actually be necessary to build anything for this part, since it would be included in the second part. But since this is part of the power (which might not be evident to someone looking at the sheet if I don't include it), I'm leaning toward building the RKA and looking at the falling table for how many d6s it should have. That's cut and dried since it's spelling out, so there's no guessing that needs to be done.

 

Since it's a three-part power, I was thinking about how to put it all together since it's sequential rather than all the effects happening simultaneously. The Aftershock build in 5e and 6e's Champions Power has the Aftershock Triggered to occur after the Earthquake, and it seemed that this could also be done to Trigger the Abyss to come after the Earthquake, and the Killing Damage to happen after the Abyss. Or, with Linked powers, for -1/4 less Limitation, a lesser Linked power can be used in any phase the greater Constant power is in use, so the Earthquake could be bought as constant, so the character could pay END to maintain the Earthquake as long as he wants, then open the Abyss, and have the Killing Damage Triggered to happen after.

 

Thoughts? Suggestions? Is that pretty much how it should be, so nothing else needs to be done?

 

[Lucius]

If you buy that third aspect as an attack, be sure to limit it to only those that actually take the fall. i.e. if someone doesn't fall because they can fly, they're not going to take damage from hitting the bottom of the pit.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says once you've done this, what are you gonna do? Now you're standing on top of a big pillar looking down into an abyss....no place to go but down

[mallet]

I don't think the 3rd part is a power or an attack. It would just be falling damage based on how deep the hole is. As Lucius said, characters with flying wouldn't be damaged. Same with characters who maybe had swinging, teleport, desolidification, clinging and probably a few other powers I'm forgetting right now that could help stop them from falling. 

 

As for the 2nd part of the power, how deep is the abyss you are thinking of? Characters fall at a velocity of +10m a Segment, so the deeper the hole the more chances that they will get a phase to act and/or another character has a phase to save them (fly after them and grab them), etc... So in the first Segment they have fallen 10m, Second Seg 30m, Third Seg 60m, Fourth Seg 100m; fifth Seg 150m, sixth Seg 210m, then they reach maximum velocity, so the distance increases by +60m each segment after that. So, Seg 7 they have fallen 270m, Seg 8 330m. Obviously everyones take on what an "Abyss" level of depth might be, but I would say 100m would be the very minimum I would consider an Abyss and you could still see the bottom from edge of that. But going with it being 100m deep hole we see that it would take 4 segments to fall that distance. A SPD 5 character would get at least two full Phases to act before they hit the ground.

 

Also, assuming this is a modern day superhero campaign, this power would do a ton of damage to the city it was used in. Subway tunnels cut in half, sewer, water and gas mains ruptured, electrical lines severed, etc.... I guess this would be a badguy power, because any hero using it would be hated by everyone in the city for all the damage caused. Can you imagine how much money it would cost and time it would take to fill in an abyss sized pothole on Main st.? 

[Demiurgos]

8 hours ago, Lucius said:

If you buy that third aspect as an attack, be sure to limit it to only those that actually take the fall. i.e. if someone doesn't fall because they can fly, they're not going to take damage from hitting the bottom of the pit.

 

Oh, right. Of course. How much of a Limitation should that be, cost-wise?

[eepjr24]

I don't think you need tunneling at all.

14d6 Blast, AoE: 28m Explosion (+1/2), Megascale, 1m = 100m (+1), Hole in the Middle (+1/4) [192 Active] No Range (-1/2), Only affects ground level and below (-1), Standard effect (-0) [77 Real Points]

 

That would destroy all of the ground around the character for 200 meters outward and create a hole approximately (200*.9)+(200*.8)+(200*.7)+(200*.6)+(200*.5)+(200*.4)+(200*.3)+(200*.2)+(200*.1) = 900 meters deep. From there it would roughly be bowl shaped and end about  2 kilometers away from the player. Above figures are based on a cubic meter of dirt having 4 PD and 10 Body. The hole would be smaller in diameter and depth in a city, I would probably figure it at 5 PD and 14 or 15 Body. That would reduce the hole to about 420 meters deep and 1.2 kilometers wide. Of course, you still need to figure out the volume that was above the hole to figure out how filled it will become and how much damage people will take from either the fall or the buildings toppling on them (even if they are fliers they need to dodge falling sky scrapers). But that's just some light 3D geometry. ?

 

- E

 

Edited September 2, 2018 by eepjr24
Notes on falling and fill

[Demiurgos]

8 hours ago, mallet said:

I don't think the 3rd part is a power or an attack. It would just be falling damage based on how deep the hole is. As Lucius said, characters with flying wouldn't be damaged. Same with characters who maybe had swinging, teleport, desolidification, clinging and probably a few other powers I'm forgetting right now that could help stop them from falling. 

 

The reason I was leaning toward actually statting it up, is because if someone looks at the write-up and sees Energy Blast x, Explosion, Personal Immunity, No Range, Only Does Knockdown, Not Knockback plus Tunneling x, Personal Immunity, Hole In The Middle, Usable As Attack, Ranged, Area Of Effect, Only to Open Earth Beneath Targets, it might not be clear that the damage is part of it. Neither pit builds in 5e or 6e say anything about damage, and since you "get what you pay for," I don't have any problem with paying for exactly what I want.

 

Take this for an example:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E33fYGJnQag

 

This is similar, it's just that the victim is already conveniently standing at the edge of a cliff, which just breaks off without an earthquake. There's no Tunneling, since the empty space is already there and doesn't have to be created, but there's Killing, rather than Normal, Damage at the bottom, which is the entire point of it, since it's a Fatality. Now, with this power, there aren't spikes at the bottom to be impaled on, it's more like jagged rocks to be broken on. How would the impalement be modeled in HERO System if the spiked RKA (since, effect wise, there's absolutely no difference between the spike traveling through the air and impaling the victim and the victim traveling through the air and being impaled on the spike, it's just different special effects for what's going through the air for the same result) isn't included as part of the power?

 

As far as avoidance, swinging would depend on the presence of something to attach a line to, and clinging would depend on being near a surface to cling to rather than being caught in the middle.

 

Quote

 

As for the 2nd part of the power, how deep is the abyss you are thinking of? Characters fall at a velocity of +10m a Segment, so the deeper the hole the more chances that they will get a phase to act and/or another character has a phase to save them (fly after them and grab them), etc... So in the first Segment they have fallen 10m, Second Seg 30m, Third Seg 60m, Fourth Seg 100m; fifth Seg 150m, sixth Seg 210m, then they reach maximum velocity, so the distance increases by +60m each segment after that. So, Seg 7 they have fallen 270m, Seg 8 330m. Obviously everyones take on what an "Abyss" level of depth might be, but I would say 100m would be the very minimum I would consider an Abyss and you could still see the bottom from edge of that. But going with it being 100m deep hole we see that it would take 4 segments to fall that distance. A SPD 5 character would get at least two full Phases to act before they hit the ground.

 

You're close, 150m, so 5 segments. I actually wasn't sure if this power could be effectively modeled in HERO System, but I wanted to try anyway, 1) just to see how it would be done, and 2) to compare and contrast. In the system I originally built it in, if you fail the DEX roll, that's it and you fall. It's seems that HERO's greater detail might actually make this power less effective. I wasn't sure how it would work in HERO to begin with, since combat is different.

 

Quote

Also, assuming this is a modern day superhero campaign, this power would do a ton of damage to the city it was used in. Subway tunnels cut in half, sewer, water and gas mains ruptured, electrical lines severed, etc.... I guess this would be a badguy power, because any hero using it would be hated by everyone in the city for all the damage caused. Can you imagine how much money it would cost and time it would take to fill in an abyss sized pothole on Main st.? 

 

There wouldn't be any reason for a hero to have a power like this. Damage to the city actually won't be an issue, but I wanted to get the mechanics down first and didn't want that to be derailed.

 

No one's commented one way or the other on the actual mechanics, so I want to make sure that there isn't any issue with them. I'll use the 6e build since it's the latest one:

 

Blast x, Only Does Knockdown, Not Knockback (+0), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (20m Radius Explosion; +1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Constant (+1/2); Only Affects Targets On The Ground (-1/4) plus Tunneling x, Hole In The Middle (fixed size; +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Ranged (+1/2), Area Of Effect (20m Radius; +1), Usable As Attack (does not affect characters who can avoid falling; +1 1/4), all targets standing within 20 meters of Grantor (+2); Only To Open Earth Beneath Targets (-1), Linked (Blast; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; Lesser Instant Power can be used in any Phase in which greater Constant Power is in use; -1/4) plus Killing Attack - Ranged x, Hole In The Middle (fixed size; +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (20m Radius; +1), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; When Targets Hit Rock Bottom; +1); Only Those Who Take The Fall (-1), No Range (-1/2), Linked (Blast; -1/4).

 

Putting aside for a moment whether the third aspect should be a part of it, would this be the correct way to simulate this power? I noticed that Usable On Others can be used on inanimate objects, which means it could be used on the ground itself, but it's probably simpler to do it the conventional way.

[Hugh Neilson]

On 9/1/2018 at 3:13 AM, Demiurgos said:

I thought I'd post here for feedback from the HERO Games board denizens.

 

I was trying to build a power in HERO System, and there were a couple of things I've been mulling over. First and foremost, HERO System is an effects-based system, so you determine what it does, and choose the appropriate effect(s) from there. Okay, there are three different effects this power has:

 

1) The first effect is an earthquake. In both 5e and 6e, this effect is built the exact same way, with the only difference being the name of Energy Blast (5e) or Blast (6e):

 

5e: Energy Blast 10d6, Explosion (+½), Personal Immunity (+¼) (87 Active Points); No Range (-½), Only Affects Targets On The Ground (-¼), Only Does Knockdown, Not Knockback (-0).

 

6e: Blast 10d6, Area Of Effect (18m Radius Explosion; +½), Personal Immunity (+¼) (87 Active Points); No Range (-½), Only Affects Targets On The Ground (-¼), Only Does Knockdown, Not Knockback (-0).

 

 

So far, so good. 

 

On 9/1/2018 at 3:13 AM, Demiurgos said:

2) The second effect is that the ground opens up in an abyss. There's a pit build in both 5e and 6e that, again, are built exactly the same way:

 

5e: Tunneling 8” through DEF 8 materials, Usable As Attack (does not affect characters with Flight or Gliding; +1), Ranged (+½) (100 Active Points);  Only To Form Pits Beneath Targets (-1).

 

6e: Tunneling 16m through PD 8 materials, Usable As Attack (does not affect characters with Flight; +1¼), Ranged (+½) (88 Active Points); Only To Form Pits Beneath Targets (-1).

 

The above build is for a pit, while this power is for an abyss, so it needs to be considerably bigger and deeper. The character using this power is actually going to be standing in the center of the area, which is unaffected, which would be mechanically represented by Hole In The Middle, and Ranged would be changed to Area of Effect. What's happening is after the quake, the area around the character is opening up into an abyss, and everything standing in the area falls into it. In the center of the area stands a pillar where the ground is in tact (the unaffected area), where the character is standing.

 

I don't know if Desolidification, Usable As Attack to desolidify the ground in an area around the character (who has Hole In The Middle and Personal Immunity), given the SFX as the ground opening up would be a valid alternate approach. If Change Environment wasn't explicitly said to "create relatively subtle effects," it might have been a possibility. Transform seems to offer itself as a possibility, transforming the earth into a void. The earth falling away could be part of the transformation as it turns into thin air, which would also explain the lack of earth beneath the surface. Or, since it's actually a published build by the makers of HERO System, I could just go with Tunneling, Usable As Attack, Ranged (after thinking about it, Ranged is needed since the character isn't moving through the tunnel as it's being created, which is explicitly said to be what's being done), add Area of Effect and change the size. Looking at the published build, it has the limitation Only To Form Pits Beneath Target, so it seems Indirect isn't needed to define the point of origin of the tunnel as beneath him (which is what Tunneling is usually used for anyway).

 

I don't like that Tunneling build.  For some reason, it is accelerating the target falling while preventing any damage from impact at the bottom. 

 

I think  eepjr24 has the right idea - an area of effect attack power which destroys the ground in the area of the earthquake.  This could be as simple as added dice to the original Blast (the quake plus these extra dice destroy the ground beneath their feet) or a KA or Transform.  If written as an Explosion, the Abyss would be deeper at ground zero than at the fringes, which may make sense.  Alternative;ly, it is changing the environment, so that could work. Simply causing a target to fall as there is no ground under him may not be that powerful an effect, especially in a Supers game.

 

On 9/1/2018 at 3:13 AM, Demiurgos said:

3) The third, and final effect, is that anyone/thing that fell into the abyss fall and hits rocks at the bottom. The first thought was to simply model the damage of the rocks, but while it would be a Killing Attack in game terms, I wasn't sure if it would be a ranged RKA. But since it's an effects-based system, you disregard the name, so I thought that if you throw a knife at someone, or plant a spear into the ground and knock someone onto it from a distance above the ground, it's damage that involves a distance (throwing a spear at someone or "throwing" someone, so to speak, at the spear both have the same result), and clearly isn't an HKA. The second thought was simply to consult the falling rules, which would make it a matter of looking at the table for the velocity and the distance of the fall based on the depth of the pit. In which case it wouldn't actually be necessary to build anything for this part, since it would be included in the second part. But since this is part of the power (which might not be evident to someone looking at the sheet if I don't include it), I'm leaning toward building the RKA and looking at the falling table for how many d6s it should have. That's cut and dried since it's spelling out, so there's no guessing that needs to be done.

 

Why do they hit rocks on the bottom?  Shouldn't they hit whatever is actually under the ground?  Maybe it's an underground lake.  Maybe it's clay.  Maybe it's molten lava.  It seems like it would depend on where the attack is used.  And it should not do damage until they hit the bottom, which does not seem to be accelerated from normal falling for any reason.  A normal attack can be lethal anyway.  I don't imagine the Thing, or Mr. Fantastic, would be killed or maimed  by such a fall, but a normal human being?  If they fall a considerable distance, 15d6 will leave them bleeding out near death on average, and 30d6 is killed on impact.  And that is before the initial earthquake damage.

 

I'd go with Linked.  Have to Blast to create the abyss and have to create the Abyss to Blast.  If it's less effective than the source game, I would say that is a function of the falling systems each game uses (or of overriding them in the source game).  In a comic book game, I can certainly see SpiderMan leaping from, swinging from or clinging to falling cars,  chunks of masonry, etc. to avoid a freefall with sudden impact at the bottom, so the "fall is less dangerous to Supers" aspect feels like a better simulation of the power.  If the best simulation would be "all the non-flying characters are killed by the fall and those who can fly are crushed by falling buildings - end of campaign", would the power need to be designed at all?

[Demiurgos]

13 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

I don't think you need tunneling at all.

14d6 Blast, AoE: 28m Explosion (+1/2), Megascale, 1m = 100m (+1), Hole in the Middle (+1/4) [192 Active] No Range (-1/2), Only affects ground level and below (-1), Standard effect (-0) [77 Real Points]

 

That would destroy all of the ground around the character for 200 meters outward and create a hole approximately (200*.9)+(200*.8)+(200*.7)+(200*.6)+(200*.5)+(200*.4)+(200*.3)+(200*.2)+(200*.1) = 900 meters deep. From there it would roughly be bowl shaped and end about  2 kilometers away from the player. Above figures are based on a cubic meter of dirt having 4 PD and 10 Body. The hole would be smaller in diameter and depth in a city, I would probably figure it at 5 PD and 14 or 15 Body. That would reduce the hole to about 420 meters deep and 1.2 kilometers wide. Of course, you still need to figure out the volume that was above the hole to figure out how filled it will become and how much damage people will take from either the fall or the buildings toppling on them (even if they are fliers they need to dodge falling sky scrapers). But that's just some light 3D geometry. ?

 

- E

 

 

Hmm.. that's a possibility, although MegaScale is a bit overkill for the purposes of this. It doesn't need to be that big.

[Demiurgos]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I don't like that Tunneling build.  For some reason, it is accelerating the target falling while preventing any damage from impact at the bottom. 

 

To be clear, I didn't put together that or the earthquake build, they were already in existing HERO System publications that I looked through for ideas of how to go about building it. The pit wouldn't have falling damage, since the intent of that wasn't to inflict injury, but entrapment. When people unwittingly step into what was a hidden pit, the problem is that they can't climb out. I said that that couldn't be used as is, unlike the earthquake build, and would need some changes.

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I think  eepjr24 has the right idea - an area of effect attack power which destroys the ground in the area of the earthquake.  This could be as simple as added dice to the original Blast (the quake plus these extra dice destroy the ground beneath their feet) or a KA or Transform.  If written as an Explosion, the Abyss would be deeper at ground zero than at the fringes, which may make sense.  Alternative;ly, it is changing the environment, so that could work. Simply causing a target to fall as there is no ground under him may not be that powerful an effect, especially in a Supers game.

 

How much extra dice would be needed to achieve the effect? Since eepjr24 proposed a 14d6 Blast, and the earthquake is 10d6, would it be sufficient to just make those four dice the extra dice? Because that would fit. Transform was mentioned, as was Change Environment, but as I said, when I see Change Environment used, it's to model effects like fog, heat, cold, gravity, slippery terrain, etc., and not something as drastic as the ground being destroyed. I've also seen it used to do a point of NND damage to nearby buildings. How would Change Environment be used to create an abyss?

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Why do they hit rocks on the bottom? 

 

 

Because in HERO System, you decide "what you want the power to be and do" (6E1 122), then decide what game effects works best for the intended effect. They hit rocks on the bottom because that's what the power does. Same reason why Cyclops's optic blast is concussive force instead of heat vision. That's what the guy who created him wanted his power to do. Similarly, every and anything that happens in a comic book, each and every choice by a character, happens because the writer wanted it to. The inspiration was Apocalypse from the X-Men: Animated Series from the '90s, when he said, “I am the rocks of the eternal shore: crash against me and be broken.” I made a power out of it. Crashing against the rocks is the entire point of it.

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Shouldn't they hit whatever is actually under the ground?  Maybe it's an underground lake.  Maybe it's clay.  Maybe it's molten lava.  It seems like it would depend on where the attack is used.  And it should not do damage until they hit the bottom, which does not seem to be accelerated from normal falling for any reason. 

 

 

The damage comes when they hit the bottom. If they don't, they're not hurt. As said above, I posted a template in a HERO System publication that wasn't built to cause falling damage. Mallet and I discussed the depth of the abyss, which is deep enough for falling damage to occur as per the falling rules. The build I proposed was directly under eepjr24's post.

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

A normal attack can be lethal anyway.  I don't imagine the Thing, or Mr. Fantastic, would be killed or maimed  by such a fall, but a normal human being?  If they fall a considerable distance, 15d6 will leave them bleeding out near death on average, and 30d6 is killed on impact.  And that is before the initial earthquake damage.

 

The Thing or Mr. Fantastic wouldn't be expected to be. Those are two characters custom chosen who wouldn't be.

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I'd go with Linked.  Have to Blast to create the abyss and have to create the Abyss to Blast.  If it's less effective than the source game, I would say that is a function of the falling systems each game uses (or of overriding them in the source game).  In a comic book game, I can certainly see SpiderMan leaping from, swinging from or clinging to falling cars,  chunks of masonry, etc. to avoid a freefall with sudden impact at the bottom, so the "fall is less dangerous to Supers" aspect feels like a better simulation of the power.  If the best simulation would be "all the non-flying characters are killed by the fall and those who can fly are crushed by falling buildings - end of campaign", would the power need to be designed at all?

 

That was never said to be the best simulation. Everyone wouldn't be killed, the campaign wouldn't be over. I'm not going get into why at the moment, because that would derail the thread from the subject of the appropriate mechanics for the power. Perhaps after the best way to model the desired effect has been found.

 

Prelude to the Abyss: Blast x, Only Does Knockdown, Not Knockback (+0), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (20m Radius Explosion; +1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Constant (+1/2); Only Affects Targets On The Ground

 

So this has been the one thing no one has had a problem with, since all the discussion has been about the second or third parts of the power. Would an extra Linked 4d6 of Blast Explosion be enough to create the abyss?

[eepjr24]

2 hours ago, Demiurgos said:

 

 

Prelude to the Abyss: Blast x, Only Does Knockdown, Not Knockback (+0), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (20m Radius Explosion; +1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Constant (+1/2); Only Affects Targets On The Ground

 

So this has been the one thing no one has had a problem with, since all the discussion has been about the second or third parts of the power. Would an extra Linked 4d6 of Blast Explosion be enough to create the abyss?

 

No. Linked powers apply damage to defenses separately.  Anything less than 5d6 (if you use standard effect) would simply rattle the ground a little, not destroy any dirt.

 

Without Megascale, if you used a 14d6 Blast and presuming all dirt again, you would create a hole (2*.9)+(2*.8)+(2*.7)+(2*.6)+(2*.5)+(2*.4)+(2*.3)+(2*.2)+(2*.1) = 9 meters deep. Not exactly an abyss. With the Constant added it would create a 20 meter deep hole in 8 phases (19.2 on the 7th phase). 

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, Demiurgos said:

 

To be clear, I didn't put together that or the earthquake build, they were already in existing HERO System publications that I looked through for ideas of how to go about building it. The pit wouldn't have falling damage, since the intent of that wasn't to inflict injury, but entrapment. When people unwittingly step into what was a hidden pit, the problem is that they can't climb out. I said that that couldn't be used as is, unlike the earthquake build, and would need some changes.

 

 

To me, the effect from which that pit should reason is "a pit appears".  Everything else follows from the creation of the pit.  Someone may fall in if they cannot grab the edge, fly, etc.  They may be hurt if they lack sufficient defenses to offset the sudden stop at the bottom.  They may be trapped, or they may be able to climb pout, depending on their skills and ability.  Taking damage from falling into an abyss is the natural byproduct of falling into the abyss.  I would not make a character pay for an attack power if he uses his STR or Telekinesis to toss someone way up in the air, or push someone off a cliff.  The falling damage is a result of interaction with the environment.

 

3 hours ago, Demiurgos said:

How much extra dice would be needed to achieve the effect? Since eepjr24 proposed a 14d6 Blast, and the earthquake is 10d6, would it be sufficient to just make those four dice the extra dice? Because that would fit. Transform was mentioned, as was Change Environment, but as I said, when I see Change Environment used, it's to model effects like fog, heat, cold, gravity, slippery terrain, etc., and not something as drastic as the ground being destroyed. I've also seen it used to do a point of NND damage to nearby buildings. How would Change Environment be used to create an abyss?

 

Depends on what materials you want to destroy.  I believe eepjs24 picked 14d6 because an average roll will destroy a hex of earth (maybe paving), so if every hex in a large area is hit, the dirt in that area should be destroyed.  Probably need the limitation to be "on or under the ground".

 

This would not be Linked.  It would be extra dice to the power, limited to only affect the ground itself.

 

4 hours ago, Demiurgos said:

Because in HERO System, you decide "what you want the power to be and do" (6E1 122), then decide what game effects works best for the intended effect. They hit rocks on the bottom because that's what the power does. Same reason why Cyclops's optic blast is concussive force instead of heat vision. That's what the guy who created him wanted his power to do. Similarly, every and anything that happens in a comic book, each and every choice by a character, happens because the writer wanted it to. The inspiration was Apocalypse from the X-Men: Animated Series from the '90s, when he said, “I am the rocks of the eternal shore: crash against me and be broken.” I made a power out of it. Crashing against the rocks is the entire point of it.

 

What is the actual effect?  "An abyss opens in the ground" would  not change whatever is below that abyss. Does the attack actually create rocks on the bottom and cause anyone who cannot fly to immediately strike them?  If the power were used on the Golden Gate Bridge, would the waters below become solid rock, or would the bridge get demolished and those on it plummet to the waters below?

 

4 hours ago, Demiurgos said:

The Thing or Mr. Fantastic wouldn't be expected to be. Those are two characters custom chosen who wouldn't be.

 

Like many typical Supers, they have the defenses to survive the fall.  They are also reasonable proxies for non-flying PCs.  Spider-man would likely Web his way out of falling. 

 

1 hour ago, eepjr24 said:

 

No. Linked powers apply damage to defenses separately.  Anything less than 5d6 (if you use standard effect) would simply rattle the ground a little, not destroy any dirt.

 

Without Megascale, if you used a 14d6 Blast and presuming all dirt again, you would create a hole (2*.9)+(2*.8)+(2*.7)+(2*.6)+(2*.5)+(2*.4)+(2*.3)+(2*.2)+(2*.1) = 9 meters deep. Not exactly an abyss. With the Constant added it would create a 20 meter deep hole in 8 phases (19.2 on the 7th phase). 

 

Why not simple Area of Effect Radius to inflict 14d6 on each hex within that radius?  Megascale on a Blast just means it has greater range.  It needs an Area of Effect, with or without Megascale.

[Demiurgos]

2 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

 

No. Linked powers apply damage to defenses separately.  Anything less than 5d6 (if you use standard effect) would simply rattle the ground a little, not destroy any dirt.

 

Without Megascale, if you used a 14d6 Blast and presuming all dirt again, you would create a hole (2*.9)+(2*.8)+(2*.7)+(2*.6)+(2*.5)+(2*.4)+(2*.3)+(2*.2)+(2*.1) = 9 meters deep. Not exactly an abyss. With the Constant added it would create a 20 meter deep hole in 8 phases (19.2 on the 7th phase). 

 

Ah. I stand corrected. Thank you.

 

Actually, thinking about it now, I see that was a dumb question. You didn't type "14d6," randomly, you did it because that's the amount of dice it would take to accomplished the desired effect. Looking in Champions Powers, it says that a 6d6 Blast is "tremors," an 8d6 Blast is a "mini-quake," and a 10d6 Blast is a "major quake," so then, as you said, a 14d6 Blast would be what it would take to tear a hole in the ground. The intensity has to increase. There was a 33% increase from "tremors" to a "mini-quake," and again from "mini-quake" to "major quake," so then, as you said, a 40% increase from "major quake" to "earth opens up." That makes logical sense, so it seems you were right.

 

Champions Powers has this as an option for the Earthquake build:

 

Quote

Aftershock: The character also causes a minor tremor that occurs after the effects of the first one have passed. Add Blast 5d6, Area Of Effect (12m Radius Explosion; +½), Personal Immunity (+¼), Trigger (occurs in Segment after character uses Earthquake, activating Trigger takes no time, Trigger immediately automatically resets; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (69 Active Points); No Range (-½), Linked (-¼), Only Affects Targets On The Ground (-¼), Only Does Knockdown, Not Knockback (-0). Total cost: 34 points.

Since it added another AoE Blast to the initial one modeling the earthquake to simulate an aftershock, the same can be done for the earthquake blast and the blast to create the abyss.

 

The only thing, and I guess numbers have to be used now, is that the hole created by this was supposed to be 20m x 150m, and MegaScale would make it much more bigger than intended. While I'm open to adjustment for the HERO System conversion, 200m x 900m is far, far, more than needed. I guess if that's what the math says, that's what the math says, but the size of it is rather overkill.

[Demiurgos]

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Taking damage from falling into an abyss is the natural byproduct of falling into the abyss.  I would not make a character pay for an attack power if he uses his STR or Telekinesis to toss someone way up in the air, or push someone off a cliff.  The falling damage is a result of interaction with the environment.

 

Well, as far as a character paying, most players seem to have cost first and foremost in mind, and paying the least amount of points possible. If I'm looking to create an effect, cost is secondary. So long as the desired effect is accomplished, it costs whatever it costs. Some concepts are pricier than others. Other concepts don't belong in the hands of a player character, in which case cost is irrelevant, since NPCs have no point budget to worry about.

 

But as far as this specific instance, I said in the OP that there were two possibilities for the third part of the power: 1) "simply model the damage of the rocks, [which] would be a Killing Attack in game terms", or 2) "simply ... consult the falling rules, which would make it a matter of looking at the table for the velocity and the distance of the fall based on the depth of the pit. In which case it wouldn't actually be necessary to build anything for this part, since it would be included in the second part." Damage as a result of interaction with the environment was already mentioned in the OP. But since "you get what you pay for" (6E1 120), I simply went ahead and reasoned what the effect would be to have both options there. I don't care about cost. And, as I said, if someone looked at the sheet and saw the earthquake and the abyss, they wouldn't know there were sharp rocks at the bottom, which was another reason I just statted it up for the sake of doing so (it's also a matter of convenience to already know exactly how much damage would be sustained rather than having to look in the book since everyone doesn't have it with them). The "official" build hasn't been set in stone.

 

Quote

 

Depends on what materials you want to destroy.  I believe eepjs24 picked 14d6 because an average roll will destroy a hex of earth (maybe paving), so if every hex in a large area is hit, the dirt in that area should be destroyed.  Probably need the limitation to be "on or under the ground".

 

This would not be Linked.  It would be extra dice to the power, limited to only affect the ground itself.

 

Yeah, as said above , I realized in hindsight that 14d6 was chosen because that's the amount of dice needed to accomplish the effect, so 14d6 would be the "extra dice." I actually don't know what I was thinking.

 

But wouldn't they need to be Linked, since the earthquake and the abyss are two different special effects? As aforementioned, Champions Powers had an identical AoE Blast Explosion of less intensity Linked to the original greater intensity AoE Blast that represented the earthquake to model an aftershock. That was a published example of lesser amount of dice added to the power, and this would be a greater amount of dice being added to the power. 10d6 is making the earth quake, and 14d6 is creating the abyss.

 

Quote

 

What is the actual effect?  "An abyss opens in the ground" would  not change whatever is below that abyss. Does the attack actually create rocks on the bottom and cause anyone who cannot fly to immediately strike them?  If the power were used on the Golden Gate Bridge, would the waters below become solid rock, or would the bridge get demolished and those on it plummet to the waters below?

 

The effect doesn't exist in a vacuum. This isn't a random happening, it's an effect for a specific character who's opening the ground. Just as the character is making the ground open up, he's also making sharp rocks at the bottom the same way he opened the earth. In comics, people routinely break the laws of physics and geniuses know everything about everything and whip up deus ex machinas whenever needed, so a character who can open up the ground making rocks at the bottom shouldn't be farfetched in such an environment. The character using the power is creating rocks on the bottom for non-fliers to hit. Attacks aren't sentient. Non-fliers wouldn't teleport into the rocks, they would fall the distance from the surface to the bottom and hit the rocks. Some things go without saying.

 

The character wouldn't be using the powers on a bridge. Just like Avalanche, or some other terrakinetic or geokinetic, wouldn't be fighting on a bridge. They would be fighting on terrain advantageous to them and their abilities. Someone like Storm wouldn't be creating tornados in a room, she would be outdoors in the terrain in which she can use her weather powers. If she is indoors when a fight breaks out, she's going to want to take it outside.

 

Quote

Why not simple Area of Effect Radius to inflict 14d6 on each hex within that radius?  Megascale on a Blast just means it has greater range.  It needs an Area of Effect, with or without Megascale.

 

Both the initial earthquake build and eepjr24's suggestion are Blast Explosions, and Explosion is an AoE in 6e.

[eepjr24]

1 hour ago, Demiurgos said:

 

The only thing, and I guess numbers have to be used now, is that the hole created by this was supposed to be 20m x 150m, and MegaScale would make it much more bigger than intended. While I'm open to adjustment for the HERO System conversion, 200m x 900m is far, far, more than needed. I guess if that's what the math says, that's what the math says, but the size of it is rather overkill.

My choice of 100m as the hex size was completely arbitrary. I apologize for not pointing that out. For the +1 Megascale option you can select any set value of greater than 1m and less than or equal to 1km. Play with it till you get what you like.

 

For a 20 meter wide hole that is 150m deep you are going to probably use AOE Line for a 16m by 16m line (using the optional doubling of width or height instead of length and figuring the the approximate area of 20m circle to be the same as the area of a 17.2m square) by 150m. That is a +2 3/4 AOE Advantage, without megascale.

 

With megascale 1m = 20m (+1) you would buy a line that is 8m long (+1/4) pointed straight down only, no range, hole in the middle, etc. At 14d6 no explosion that would net you a hole 20m wide and 160m deep, which is pretty close. As a GM if you wanted to call it 150 I would be fine. Saves you 1 1/2 in advantages and really is a better model IMO.

 

- E

[Hugh Neilson]

OK, if I read this correctly, you want a sufficiently intense quake to tear through the ground, even solid rock, leaving a 20m x 150m hole.  Not sure why it has to be exactly 20m x 150m, but OK.  And you want an earthquake on the ground.

 

Note that an explosion loses damage as it moves from center to edges, so an explosion will start damaging, instead of destroying, terrain as it gets further from the center.

 

So Step One seems pretty easy - 10d6 Blast, Physical, Area Of Effect (20m radius, Explosion, Hole in the Center +3/4) (87 Active Points); No Range (-½), Only Affects Targets On The Ground (-¼), Only Does Knockdown, Not Knockback (-0), Linked to Abyss (below; -1/2) 39 real points.  I've left this  one alone.  Note that it loses 1d6 damage for every 2m away from Ground Zero, and 10d6 is not much in a Supers game anyway, but that's OK - it's not there to KO the Supers, at least not directly, right?  Adding dice and radius is easy, if desired.  Note that I replaced Personal Immunity with Hole in the Center.

 

A cubic meter of dirt has PD 0, ED 4, BOD 10.  Roadway has 5 PD, 8 ED, 11 BOD.  A cubic meter of stone is PD 5, ED 10, 19 BOD.  So, should your power tear through dirt, roads, stone?  Let's assume roads, but not solid stone.  These values are from 6e Vol 2 p 171.

 

A 16d6 Physical Blast and it will do 16 BOD as Standard Effect.  That will take out a cubic meter of dirt or roadway.  Now, make it Area Effect and it does this damage to every hex within its area.  But you want it to be 20 meters radius (40 meters diameter) at the top (with a hole in the middle) and 150 meters down.  The closest area for that will be a Cone whose circular area is 20 meters radius, and height 251 meters, so that is more than you wanted.  But if we make it a narrow cone, now it is 20 meters radius and 126 or so meters long.  128 meters narrow cone is a +1 advantage, plus 1/4 to have a hole in the middle.  Its source point is 128 meters below the character, so that's +1/4 Indirect.  Alternatively, it is the same area as a cone, just inverted, so it does not seem unreasonable to forego Indirect and give it No Range - the character does not even have a choice to point it in another direction.

 

So 16d6 Blast, Physical, Standard Effect, AoE 128 m Inverted Narrow Cone w/ hole in the center (+1 1/4), 160 AP, no range (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), does not damage living beings (or only earth, stone, etc., or whatever) (-1), Linked to first Blast (-0 or -1/4*) 71 real points

 

* I'd probably allow the extra -1/4 as the powers both have a serious END cost, but I priced it conservatively.  You could also toss Unified Power on both for another -1/4, as weakening one would seem likely to weaken the other.

 

So we end up with 110 points, the explosion damages things on ground level, and the abyss opens.  Mess with the AoE as desired if you want a different shape to the Abyss than a hole sloping inwards from a 20 meter radius, dropping down to 128 meters.

 

As eepjr24 suggests, we could also use Megascale, but that will cost +1 1/2 (+1/4 for AoE, +1 for Megascale, +1/4 for a hole in the center).  We're right about the area where Megascale starts to be less expensive than standard AoE.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

It's expensive, but it will take out a city block.  It won't do much directly against a team of Supers, but they will have their work cut out for them saving some teammates and all those innocent civilians - it's not supposed to take out the PCs directly.

 

You could add an attack if you must have any substance at the bottom turn into rock and have the poor people above slam down immediately instead of at the speed of gravity, but that doesn't seem needed. 

 

Oh, and the fact that a character would rather fight in certain terrain (or other situations) does not translate to always getting his wish. 

[eepjr24]

16 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

OK, if I read this correctly, you want a sufficiently intense quake to tear through the ground, even solid rock, leaving a 20m x 150m hole.  Not sure why it has to be exactly 20m x 150m, but OK.  And you want an earthquake on the ground.

 

Note that an explosion loses damage as it moves from center to edges, so an explosion will start damaging, instead of destroying, terrain as it gets further from the center.

 

So Step One seems pretty easy - 10d6 Blast, Physical, Area Of Effect (20m radius, Explosion, Hole in the Center +3/4) (87 Active Points); No Range (-½), Only Affects Targets On The Ground (-¼), Only Does Knockdown, Not Knockback (-0), Linked to Abyss (below; -1/2) 39 real points.  I've left this  one alone.  Note that it loses 1d6 damage for every 2m away from Ground Zero, and 10d6 is not much in a Supers game anyway, but that's OK - it's not there to KO the Supers, at least not directly, right?  Adding dice and radius is easy, if desired.  Note that I replaced Personal Immunity with Hole in the Center.

 

A cubic meter of dirt has PD 0, ED 4, BOD 10.  Roadway has 5 PD, 8 ED, 11 BOD.  A cubic meter of stone is PD 5, ED 10, 19 BOD.  So, should your power tear through dirt, roads, stone?  Let's assume roads, but not solid stone.  These values are from 6e Vol 2 p 171.

 

A 16d6 Physical Blast and it will do 16 BOD as Standard Effect.  That will take out a cubic meter of dirt or roadway.  Now, make it Area Effect and it does this damage to every hex within its area.  But you want it to be 20 meters radius (40 meters diameter) at the top (with a hole in the middle) and 150 meters down.  The closest area for that will be a Cone whose circular area is 20 meters radius, and height 251 meters, so that is more than you wanted.  But if we make it a narrow cone, now it is 20 meters radius and 126 or so meters long.  128 meters narrow cone is a +1 advantage, plus 1/4 to have a hole in the middle.  Its source point is 128 meters below the character, so that's +1/4 Indirect.  Alternatively, it is the same area as a cone, just inverted, so it does not seem unreasonable to forego Indirect and give it No Range - the character does not even have a choice to point it in another direction.

 

So 16d6 Blast, Physical, Standard Effect, AoE 128 m Inverted Narrow Cone w/ hole in the center (+1 1/4), 160 AP, no range (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), does not damage living beings (or only earth, stone, etc., or whatever) (-1), Linked to first Blast (-0 or -1/4*) 71 real points

 

So we end up with 110 points, the explosion damages things on ground level, and the abyss opens.  Mess with the AoE as desired if you want a different shape to the Abyss than a hole sloping inwards from a 20 meter radius, dropping down to 128 meters.

 

As eepjr24 suggests, we could also use Megascale, but that will cost +1 1/2 (+1/4 for AoE, +1 for Megascale, +1/4 for a hole in the center).  We're right about the area where Megascale starts to be less expensive than standard AoE.

 

 

2 quibbles:

 

1st, inverting a cone (thin or otherwise) requires the use of the Indirect advantage (6e1, 320)  which would add another +1/4. I considered it, but that brought me to point 2:

 

The width at the end of a thin cone that is 128m long would be 66.3m across, which is 3x more than requested. 

 

You could also buy it with Any Area, but the cost gets even higher.

 

- E

[Hugh Neilson]

I considered Indirect on the thin cone (you quoted me on that), but as a GM, I would probably allow it without Indirect because it can only be in a single orientation, and that orientation provides no real advantage for making it Indirect. 

 

While I can't claim much credit for 6e, I do claim credit for some comments on pages 8 and 31 of 6e Vol 1, taking this theme:

 

Quote

But the corollary to that is, if a character wants an ability that’s not likely to have any effect during the game, there’s no reason for the GM to make him spend Character Points on it

 

During the 6e process, I said that this should be in the book, as the corollary to "if it is effective, it costs points" and "if a limitation does  not limit, it saves no points".  The corollary to "you only get what you pay for" is, or should be, "you only pay for what you get".

 

It's a moot point here anyway, as Demiurgos has pointed out - the NPC will have as many points as he needs to make the ability work, so it could be Any Area if that's what he wants.

 

And way upthread, he posts one potential build noting "all targets within 20 meters".  That is a 20 meter radius, or 40 meter diameter.  As an AoE is "as big as" (that is, it can be smaller than the advantage paid for, just not bigger), I would be inclined to allow a slightly narrower cone to achieve the desired effect (as a GM), or just go with the slightly larger radius, which is also within the up to 32m radius the initial Blast's AoE advantage can cover (as a player).

 

Now, if you want a more cylindrical Abyss, that can be done with a line.  To get the desired 150m depth will cost +1 1/4.  The width and height can each be doubled for every +1/4 devoted to that, and start at 2m, so +3/4 to each dimension for 16 meters.  Each could be doubled to 32 meters for an extra +1/4 each.  Given you are taking much less than the maximum for every dimension, I would be inclined to allow a single +1/4 to round out the area (increase the height and width from 16m to 20m (instead of the 32m max)  and the length from 128m to 150m (instead of the 256m max - the 6eV1 RAW says 125, which rounds from the doubling or could be a typo).  That's a square area, rather than a circle, so shaving it down to a circle also reduces some of the area covered, further supporting a charge of less than a full extra +1/4 for each slighting increased dimension.

 

So that would be 16d6 Blast, Physical, Standard Effect, AoE Line 128 long (+1), 16m high (+3/4), 16m wide (+3/4), Expanded all dimensions to 150m long, 20m wide and high, in a circle instead of a square +1/4), hole in the center (+1/4), 240 AP, no range (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), does not damage living beings (or only earth, stone, etc., or whatever) (-1), Linked to first Blast (-0 or -1/4*), can only fire straight down (+1/2**) 87 real points

 

* Again, using -0 as the more conservative choice although I would likely allow the -1/4 for dual linked powers

** This would be higher on its own, but the ground will normally be underfoot, not above or to the sides..  But he can't angle the line either.

 

If we gave  no limitation for either of the above, the real cost is 107.   Tack the -1/4 for both powers being linked and it is 80.  With big limitations already, adding more has diminished return.

 

24 END +9 END for the quake = 33.  We could tack on some reduced END, but it's not like the power is likely to be used multiple times  in rapid succession.

 

The line/cylinder is more expensive, but probably better simulates a hole that's deep at the edges, not just the center.

 

Now, let's talk about the fall - it will take 5 segments to fall 150 meters, by which time the character is falling at a rate of 50m per segment.  That's 25d6 on impact (not at terminal velocity, which would be reached after 6 segments for a fall of 210+m).  A normal human (2 PD, 8 - 10 BOD) is killed on impact by average damage.  5 PD, 10 BOD (tough human) is also dead on average damage.  Low powered and some standard Supers will take BOD if they cannot avoid the fall, but even higher power supers will have their hands full trying to save any civilians in the area of effect, which is a fairly large footprint even before considering any collapsing structures even partially in the area.  To me, this is a power that is more designed to impress (WOW - he's powerful - but comic book physics, he can't do that kind of damage to the PCs) and set up challenges ("the office building teeters precariously; people are falling from the upper floor windows as it tilts"), not to KO the heroes themselves.  In that regard, it is as much or more a plot device than a power.

 

 

[Demiurgos]

On 9/2/2018 at 5:17 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

OK, if I read this correctly, you want a sufficiently intense quake to tear through the ground, even solid rock, leaving a 20m x 150m hole.  Not sure why it has to be exactly 20m x 150m, but OK. 

 

It was simply a straight conversion to HERO System, which uses the metric system, from a game that uses the imperial system.

I said that because it's supposed to be large enough to pose a challenge, but not too large. 200m x 900m was much too large, which was why I gave the size of the original. Since I hadn't put numbers to anything (I generally don't, as that can always be filled in once you've decided what the component effects are going to be), no one had any way of knowing what was excessive. Though since HERO System has MegaScale, perhaps scale for a typical AoE attack in HERO is different.

[Demiurgos]

On 9/2/2018 at 5:02 PM, eepjr24 said:

My choice of 100m as the hex size was completely arbitrary. I apologize for not pointing that out. For the +1 Megascale option you can select any set value of greater than 1m and less than or equal to 1km. Play with it till you get what you like.

 

No need to apologize. After all, you're the one doing me a favor by replying to this thread.

 

On 9/2/2018 at 5:02 PM, eepjr24 said:

For a 20 meter wide hole that is 150m deep you are going to probably use AOE Line for a 16m by 16m line (using the optional doubling of width or height instead of length and figuring the the approximate area of 20m circle to be the same as the area of a 17.2m square) by 150m. That is a +2 3/4 AOE Advantage, without megascale.

 

With megascale 1m = 20m (+1) you would buy a line that is 8m long (+1/4) pointed straight down only, no range, hole in the middle, etc. At 14d6 no explosion that would net you a hole 20m wide and 160m deep, which is pretty close. As a GM if you wanted to call it 150 I would be fine. Saves you 1 1/2 in advantages and really is a better model IMO. 

 

- E

 

On 9/3/2018 at 7:29 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

Now, if you want a more cylindrical Abyss, that can be done with a line.  To get the desired 150m depth will cost +1 1/4.  The width and height can each be doubled for every +1/4 devoted to that, and start at 2m, so +3/4 to each dimension for 16 meters.  Each could be doubled to 32 meters for an extra +1/4 each.  Given you are taking much less than the maximum for every dimension, I would be inclined to allow a single +1/4 to round out the area (increase the height and width from 16m to 20m (instead of the 32m max)  and the length from 128m to 150m (instead of the 256m max - the 6eV1 RAW says 125, which rounds from the doubling or could be a typo).  That's a square area, rather than a circle, so shaving it down to a circle also reduces some of the area covered, further supporting a charge of less than a full extra +1/4 for each slighting increased dimension.

 

So that would be 16d6 Blast, Physical, Standard Effect, AoE Line 128 long (+1), 16m high (+3/4), 16m wide (+3/4), Expanded all dimensions to 150m long, 20m wide and high, in a circle instead of a square +1/4), hole in the center (+1/4), 240 AP, no range (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), does not damage living beings (or only earth, stone, etc., or whatever) (-1), Linked to first Blast (-0 or -1/4*), can only fire straight down (+1/2**) 87 real points

 

* Again, using -0 as the more conservative choice although I would likely allow the -1/4 for dual linked powers

** This would be higher on its own, but the ground will normally be underfoot, not above or to the sides..  But he can't angle the line either.

 

If we gave  no limitation for either of the above, the real cost is 107.   Tack the -1/4 for both powers being linked and it is 80.  With big limitations already, adding more has diminished return.

 

24 END +9 END for the quake = 33.  We could tack on some reduced END, but it's not like the power is likely to be used multiple times  in rapid succession.

 

The line/cylinder is more expensive, but probably better simulates a hole that's deep at the edges, not just the center.

 

A hole deep at the edges as well as the center fits best, so I'd go with that. I thank both you and eepjr24 for your assistance.

When I convert characters or powers from one system to another, I make notes of differences between the two and which system does what thing better, and, comparing the two, I like HERO System's construction better. It attests to HERO System's versatility. In the other system, their equivalent of Tunneling was used for an officially published build as well, but I do like using Blast better. Some may not like going into too much detail, but I like how in HERO you can know exactly how much damage an earthquake of x intensity will do, and you can actually quantify how intense an earthquake has to be to tear a hole in the ground, which in the other system would just be narrative. Additionally, not only is HERO System's construction more detailed, but it also happens to be cheaper to boot.

 

Again, thank you both for your help.

 

[Duke Bushido]

On September 2, 2018 at 8:17 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

Alternatively, it is the same area as a cone, just inverted,

 

 

 

Hello, Hugh!

 

It's always been an enjoyable read when you get to working on something.

 

I've got nothing to add to this thread, but if you don't mind, I'd like to ask a quick question, because I really don't know:

 

Does 6e allow the inversion of the cone?

 

I know 5e and 5er specifically state that the pointy bit of the cone must pointy to the character using the power.  (honestly, considering the cost of the power, and the intended effect, and the issues with modeling it, I'd just hand wave it personally, but I was curious if 6e had actually changed it).

 

Thanks!

 

Duke

 

[Hugh Neilson]

6e notes that the +1/4 version of Indirect (power originates at a fixed point other than the character) can be used to effectively invert the cone. 

 

In the context here, where the character has no ability to vary the cone (not even point it up or horizontaly), my gut feel was not to charge for that added +1/4, but a better approach may have been a further small limitation for that restriction..

[Hugh Neilson]

15 hours ago, Demiurgos said:

When I convert characters or powers from one system to another, I make notes of differences between the two and which system does what thing better,

 

One thing I find when transporting between systems, or just trying to build characters from the source material, is that the feel of the ability, rather than an exact duplicate, is what's important.  With that in mind, I'd focus on

 

16 hours ago, Demiurgos said:

 it's supposed to be large enough to pose a challenge, but not too large.

 

rather than matching precise dimensions or shapes.  A square versus a circle is probably no big deal, and going with 16 meters or 32 meters wide rather than exactly 20 is likely not a huge issue either (although I will again note the rule for AoE is not "exactly 32 meters", but "more than 16 meters and no more than 32 meters" - the gradations in between are too fine for any variation to the advantage cost, but nothing requires taking the maximum area.

[Duke Bushido]

9 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

6e notes that the +1/4 version of Indirect (power originates at a fixed point other than the character) can be used to effectively invert the cone. 

 

In the context here, where the character has no ability to vary the cone (not even point it up or horizontaly), my gut feel was not to charge for that added +1/4, but a better approach may have been a further small limitation for that restriction..

 

Thanks, Hugh. 

 

I tend to agree: is not worth charging for, particularly since he can't change it.  But having only found that first rule in 5e (I may have just overlooked it for thirty years, likely because in all that thirty-odd years-- and I can't stress this enough-- IT NEVER CAME UP!

 

So when I saw your suggestion, I was curious what had changed. 

 

Seems the new software doesn't support rep anymore, so have a "like." 

 

:) 

[Tech]

My question is on point 3: why are the rocks Killing damage? Whether GM or player, they decide whether it's normal damage or killing. Look at sinkholes, they open up quickly and I've never heard of sharp, pointy things awaiting people/cars/houses/etc at the bottom; just alot of damage since it's AE. If you decided you want a KA, then of course build it that way. If you think that sharp pointy rocks will be there at the bottom just because, that's subject to debate but then again, this isn't real life.

Is the attack meant to kill?

 

I'll mention that I read so often that a power write-up is Killing damage because it hurts people. That overlooks the 'fact' that superheroes don't have a 2 PD (at least I hope that's not your heroes total PD) and most can take 15d6 falling damage without being hurt (being awake is a different thing).  However, 15d6 (even 8d6 damage) will seriously injure/maim/etc a normal person. Reminds me of a GM I had the pleasure of NOT being in a game with, who decided that all attacks were Killing damage; after all, the attacks are designed to hurt or kill people. That brings me back to my 2 PD sentence to counter that broken GM statement.

 

I personally don't care for the Megascale write-up since the original power suggestion write-up appears to be a small area attack, not a gigantic area attack.