Is an Indirect, MegaArea, UBO power valid?

[SteveZilla]

Question about UBO, and targeting. Would taking Fully Indirect + Megascale Area (planet) allow one to grant the power no matter where the 'target' was?

EDIT:  This is in 6E.

[eepjr24]

No, on several fronts.

 

1. They could be off the planet.

2. No matter what modifiers you add as far as you can tell you need to have LOS to the recipient no matter what:

       "The Range Modifier applies to the granting of UOO powers at Range, and the grantor must have Line Of Sight to the Recipient to grant him a power at Range."

So that means you would also need a targeting sense with sufficient offsets for the perception modifiers and the ability to perceive through or around the planet to grant the power to them. 

3. Indirect has no real effect as far as I can see, as changing either the path or source of the power does not change the ability to perceive the recipient.

 

If you removed indirect and added in a sense that could perceive the recipient (probably with megascale, although that does require special GM permission) you could probably make it work. But i would probably go with something like MindScan instead, because the perception roll to find a person on a planet with a megascaled penetrative sense even with several levels of rapid sense could get really expensive (depends on how realistic your GM wants to be, but if they say you could look at 10 people in a second normally, you would need 10 levels of rapid to make a perception check to find a single person in a second. You still need to apply range modifiers, etc.)

[SteveZilla]

1. The scope of the game probably won't include off-planet areas.

Addendum:  This power will likely be used though a Mind Link (and thus should be made a Mental Power).

 

I am a little puzzled on how to make a "regular" power into a "mental" power in 6E, as there is no more BOECV like in 5E.  Does buying LOS, IPE, and two ACVs do that now?

[megaplayboy]

7 hours ago, SteveZilla said:

1. The scope of the game probably won't include off-planet areas.

Addendum:  This power will likely be used though a Mind Link (and thus should be made a Mental Power).

 

I am a little puzzled on how to make a "regular" power into a "mental" power in 6E, as there is no more BOECV like in 5E.  Does buying LOS, IPE, and two ACVs do that now?

ACV probably works, plus AVAD(mental defense) if it's an attack power of some kind.  

[Christopher]

It would really help if you told us wich power was granted and by what rules.

 

If it was not a hostile power (like it grants everyone voluntary mindlink access or a new sense power), then megascale alone should be enough to grant it to everyone.

I once thought about a sensory power with the side effect: "Granted to everyone else in range as well." It is a powerfull way around Darkness (Sight). But it does not grant any advantage over everyone else in that field.

 

If we talk about the villains plan from Justice League: Gods and Monsters (make humanity a hivemind without their consent), then I would milk that every limtiation and requirement (targeting sense) it is worth. And of course I would only allow that as a plot device, not as a Character power.

[eepjr24]

10 hours ago, Christopher said:

If it was not a hostile power (like it grants everyone voluntary mindlink access or a new sense power), then megascale alone should be enough to grant it to everyone.

 

Curious why you think that? UOO (6e, 354):

Quote

Granting a UOO power constitutes an Attack Action. It requires an Attack Roll to hit the Recipient, but the GM can waive the roll if the Recipient’s willing to receive the power and easy to touch.

I guess you could make it AoE: 1 Hex Megascale to get it to hit everyone, but you can still miss an AOE to your own hex even, although it is pretty hard.

 

- E

[Christopher]

34 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

Curious why you think that? UOO (6e, 354):

I guess you could make it AoE: 1 Hex Megascale to get it to hit everyone, but you can still miss an AOE to your own hex even, although it is pretty hard.

 

- E

It some usefull Gimic like allowing everyone on earth access to a mindlink. Or seeing the Skrulls for what they really are. Why charge 60 arms and a leg for that?

[SteveZilla]

11 hours ago, Christopher said:

It would really help if you told us which power was granted and by what rules.

 

If it was not a hostile power (like it grants everyone voluntary mindlink access or a new sense power), then megascale alone should be enough to grant it to everyone.

 

I should mention that adding AOE to a UOO power does not increase the number of people that can use it - that is controlled by the UOO Advantage.  Though that is irrelevant to my desires for this power - my build is intended to be single-target.

AFAIK it should not matter what power was being granted, be it Mental Awareness, Resistant Protection, Flight, Regeneration, etc.

[Christopher]

1 hour ago, SteveZilla said:

I should mention that adding AOE to a UOO power does not increase the number of people that can use it - that is controlled by the UOO Advantage.  Though that is irrelevant to my desires for this power - my build is intended to be single-target.

Oh right, I mixed it up with "Usable by Nearby". Wich was closer to my original idea.

 

1 hour ago, SteveZilla said:

AFAIK it should not matter what power was being granted, be it Mental Awareness, Resistant Protection, Flight, Regeneration, etc.

I jsut stumbeled over it when looking at it, but still:
"Regeneration: Characters cannot buy this Power with UOO; to heal another character, buy Healing."

 

This modifiers has 1/4 page dedicated to "THE DANGERS OF uSABlE ON OTHERS". So yes it does make a pretty big difference wich power you grant with it.

Especially as this power can be aimed through a Mind Link.

[eepjr24]

11 hours ago, Christopher said:

It some usefull Gimic like allowing everyone on earth access to a mindlink. Or seeing the Skrulls for what they really are. Why charge 60 arms and a leg for that?

I guess that is just a difference in game style. For the most part I find that granting 15 points of power to everyone on a planet is actually a pretty significant ability. YMMV. I mean, for that cost I could make everyone on a planet immortal and immune to terrestrial disease and poisons.

[SteveZilla]

4 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

for that cost I could make everyone on a planet immortal and immune to terrestrial disease and poisons.

 

Not without a butt-load of Limitations (or some loophole I am unaware of).  Though I am presuming you mean the power could be granted to ~7.5 billion people with one action - that's a heck of a large UOO advantage to achieve that.

[eepjr24]

6 minutes ago, SteveZilla said:

Not without a butt-load of Limitations (or some loophole I am unaware of).  Though I am presuming you mean the power could be granted to ~7.5 billion people with one action - that's a heck of a large UOO advantage to achieve that.

I meant granting the base 15 AP.  Yes, it would be hugely expensive if paid for through UOO doubling. I was referring to this comment, which I disagreed with no matter what they power was (15 AP would get you mind link with anyone on a planet).

 

Quote

If it was not a hostile power (like it grants everyone voluntary mindlink access or a new sense power), then megascale alone should be enough to grant it to everyone.

 

PS: 33 doublings of recipients are needed, so +8 3/4 Advantage on 15 CP gets you to 131 AP.  If you set the activation time to a month (-5), require the use of a large immobile fragile focus that is extremely difficult to replace (-3.25), and a single charge which takes a year to recover (-3.75)  you are down to 10 RP.

Edited October 22, 2018 by eepjr24
Doubling count and limitation notes

[Christopher]

33 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

I guess that is just a difference in game style. For the most part I find that granting 15 points of power to everyone on a planet is actually a pretty significant ability. YMMV. I mean, for that cost I could make everyone on a planet immortal and immune to terrestrial disease and poisons. 

And that is eactly why I said we need ot know the granted power. Twice now.

 

22 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

PS: 33 doublings of recipients are needed, so +8 3/4 Advantage on 15 CP gets you to 131 AP.  If you set the activation time to a month (-5), require the use of a large immobile fragile focus that is extremely difficult to replace (-3.25), and a single charge which takes a year to recover (-3.75)  you are down to 10 RP. 

Use "usable by nearby" and jsut Megascale the "Nearby" Area. Of course there might be a ruling against that already.

 

Considering it's activation time and effect, it's use is way outside of what I call "Adventure Time". So we are already outside of "a PC actually paid points for that" territory.

Plus what would the game effect be? As long as the power is maintained, no one can get ill? It would drive doctors out of Business, unless government action is taken. Giving you potential leverage over the world as you can just threaten to turn it off.

 

Actually that sounds like the evil corporation plan from Crisis 3:
- Corner the market with free energy

- wait for all other providers to go out of business

- you now have a monopoly on energy generation and can pretty much extort the world.

 

And we are back to having a seemingly benign power be used for evil ends. Wich is again why we really need to know wich power is granted by this.

[eepjr24]

1 hour ago, Christopher said:

 

And we are back to having a seemingly benign power be used for evil ends. Wich is again why we really need to know wich power is granted by this.

And in my games, I have yet to find a power that a player could figure out how to use for evil / unintended ends in some manner. Which is why we really don't need to know, since there are likely not any that would be excluded. As far as your "outside what players pay points for" is a relatively small area for me. Because role playing is what the game is really about, not combat.

 

- E

[Christopher]

9 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

And in my games, I have yet to find a power that a player could figure out how to use for evil / unintended ends in some manner.

That is their lack of interest in playing evil characters/finding ways to abuse the rules. Not a lack of danger in the rules.

 

And well, this is about SteveZillas game and Games in general. All those cases for wich the Rulebook has Exclamation Marks, Stops Signs and "Danger of this rule" sections.

[SteveZilla]

15 hours ago, Christopher said:

And that is exactly why I said we need to know the granted power. Twice now.

 

And we are back to having a seemingly benign power be used for evil ends. Which is again why we really need to know which power is granted by this.

 

I am being purposefully non-disclosing because my GM and at lease some fellow players also are members here.  So, sorry to disappoint. 

 

[SteveZilla]

15 hours ago, Christopher said:

Use "usable by nearby" and just Megascale the "Nearby" Area. Of course there might be a ruling against that already.

 

You are conflating/confusing "range" with "number of targets".  As you interpret would not fly in any game I can think of, as it would be a *massive* loophole.

[Christopher]

6 hours ago, SteveZilla said:

 

I am being purposefully non-disclosing because my GM and at lease some fellow players also are members here.  So, sorry to disappoint. 

 

That makes it really impossible to evaluate.

 

This power could be anything from +1 INT to Grant Required Secondary Power to "grant a 800 point Multiform to sneak a 800 point enemy in a normal disguse past all defenses"

And that later thing should propably be done via a Summon instead.

[Zephrosyne]

On 10/20/2018 at 9:27 PM, SteveZilla said:

Question about UBO, and targeting. Would taking Fully Indirect + Megascale Area (planet) allow one to grant the power no matter where the 'target' was?

EDIT:  This is in 6E.

 

Unless I am misunderstanding what you want, you could use Area Of Effect (1m Radius Accurate; +½), MegaArea (1m area covers the entire world; +2) to affect a single target anywhere in the the world.  This is used to create a spell called Curse (Hero System Grimoire pg. 51).  As a gm, I would also require Indirect +1/2 as well to be able to affect a target that might be inside or outside.

[BoloOfEarth]

The following is with the caveat that adding ACV (OMCV vs. DMCV; +1/4), LOS (+1/2), AVLD (Mental Defense; value varies) and IPE (Sight and Hearing; +3/4) is adequate to turn a non-Mental Power into a Mental Power...

 

One could make the argument that granting a Mental Power to someone over a Mind Link would only require UBO, not Indirect and Megascale Area.  After all, by RAW you can already use a Mental Power through a Mind Link without LOS and without an MCV attack roll (see 6E1:258).  Granting it to someone with UBO is just a step away from actually targeting them with the power, at least IMO.

 

That said, I'd expect that a non-attack Power (such as Resistant Protection, Flight, etc.) can't really be made into a Mental Power by ACV et.al.  In that case, I'd think you'd need Indirect and enough range to reach the target.  And as eepjr24 pointed out, you'd then need a targeting sense to perceive the target.  I'd use something like the Megascale Clairsentience "Teleportation Sense" from Powers p. 340.

 

Edit to add:  Or perhaps better yet, a Mind Scan (used through the Mind Link, you wouldn't need to make an attack roll) with enough dice to get EGO +20 to target with non-Mental powers.