greypaladin_01

You'll forgive me for going on very fuzzy memory on the difference between editions, others will hopefully correct me where wrong.   3e Healing required you to track each injury that a character takes because it could only heal on a per injury basis... or perhaps the most recent one.   I will try to dig out the older books and find more specifics later today.

It also had the stipulation that it healed STUN.  That it what it did.  You paid more to Regeneration, also a separate ability, which healed BODY.
 
Honestly, all the "problems" that were fixed in the newer editiin didnt exist until someone shoehorned them all into Aid in the first place.  It wasnt cost-effective under the old models to do what could be done using rhe Aid-derivative versions.
 
 

Also I am a little less clear on 3rd edition and earlier, but Healing was it's own thing then and 4e folded it into Aid.   There were restrictions on how Healing worked in the older editions too.  5e I think was moving things back to earlier systems.
 
Don't have all the rules to compare for sure though.

While I am certain that there are other ways PRE attacks could be used, yes that is pretty much my experience.
 
Mechanically PRE attacks are something that will give the initiator the chance of a small combat or RP benefit that is very short term.   Making enemies hesitate for 1/2 phase to give you more time to manuver into position, perhaps making a few thugs surrender or run away.   "It's Batman!  Screw this... I didn't sign up for taking on the Bat!"    Attempting to rally a group of NPCs to listen to you during chaos,, think about Superman or Captain America addressing a crowd to move away from a combat zone, or rally them to help the injured in a catastrophe situation.   The final use I could see, at least for simulating comics, would be when Major Enemies show up and perhaps cause PCs to lose 1/2 phase action.   "It's Dr. Doom!  This is way out of our league!"     But ultimately, I think that PRE attacks were designed for empowerment of PCs to help mechanically give them the BIG HERO Speech/Entrance moments you see so often. 
 
That being said,  it is your table and if your players are open to trying something different then go for it.... just don't feel you are trapped with your initial idea once you get started.  Even the best designed games were play-tested over and over and had many things change during the process.   Find what feels fun and your whole table enjoys, and you'll be golden.

While I am certain that there are other ways PRE attacks could be used, yes that is pretty much my experience.
 
Mechanically PRE attacks are something that will give the initiator the chance of a small combat or RP benefit that is very short term.   Making enemies hesitate for 1/2 phase to give you more time to manuver into position, perhaps making a few thugs surrender or run away.   "It's Batman!  Screw this... I didn't sign up for taking on the Bat!"    Attempting to rally a group of NPCs to listen to you during chaos,, think about Superman or Captain America addressing a crowd to move away from a combat zone, or rally them to help the injured in a catastrophe situation.   The final use I could see, at least for simulating comics, would be when Major Enemies show up and perhaps cause PCs to lose 1/2 phase action.   "It's Dr. Doom!  This is way out of our league!"     But ultimately, I think that PRE attacks were designed for empowerment of PCs to help mechanically give them the BIG HERO Speech/Entrance moments you see so often. 
 
That being said,  it is your table and if your players are open to trying something different then go for it.... just don't feel you are trapped with your initial idea once you get started.  Even the best designed games were play-tested over and over and had many things change during the process.   Find what feels fun and your whole table enjoys, and you'll be golden.

Thank you for the explanation, and in that case I don't need to muddle things up by putting more on your plate. I don't have a problem telling players what the probabilities are, but you raise a good point that, for situations where there's an unseen influence affecting the roll, the current system either has you reveal that to the players or do some mental arithmetic behind the scenes and then explain why a roll of 12 on a 13- didn't actually succeed. So switching to the roll vs difficulty model will give you a new option to play around with.
 
And, if you're aiming this at teaching a new player while the GM still has plenty of experience, you can offload nearly everything but Skill Levels to the GM's discretion and keep calculations relatively simple for the player. Obviously everyone's an individual with their own likes and dislikes, but I can definitely see this being a smoother introduction for new players.

The whole reason this started rolling around in my head was when I was teaching HERO to my gf for one of the solo games... and a skill check came up.
 
As i was explaining it the whole thing just seemed very unintuitive and overly clunky with too many steps and inputs interrupting the flow of the events.
 
Look at how HERO handles the skill process:
 
- What is your character skill?     13- in this example

- Step 1: How hard is the task attempted?  GM decides and now has to tell the play to change their base roll anywhere from +/-5 or more.
- Step 2: is the charcter taking extra time or rushing faster than normal?  If so, please tell your player to add or subtract another number based on time chart.
- Step 3: begin to add other bonus modifiers   (character special knowledge, good equipment for the check, good conditions, etc)  GM has to total it all up and tell them to add.
- Step 4: begin to subtract all other bad modifiers:  (see step 3 but things are going against you)
- Step 5: Player assigns any relevant Skill Levels if they wish
 
Even if you are going to do some of the math in your head that is still alot and it also means that the GM has to let the player behind the curtain for the logic of many of modifiers.   While not a 'bad' thing... it can kill the tension of the moment and drain excitement from events.
 
Instead I am trying something more simple.  

Player has skill roll of +2 (in current reworking)
There are a few things going for them so GM says to add +2  can say why then just tell them that it is a Hard task  (GM decides it is DC 12, does not have to tell the player... just giving them the general category is enough.)    If there are things that would penalize the character... that just raises the difficultly level.   They don't need to do extra math.

"The lock would normally only be of Average difficulty for you.. but your lockpicks were confiscated, making this a Hard tasks now"

...obviously every GM has their own style, you don't have to use game mechanic terms,  this is just for illustration purpose.  The only thing that matters is the player understands that circumstances against htem are making it harder.... giving them a chance to rethink actions or search for ways to negate the issues.  
 
Hopefully this helps illustrate the goals better...  I probably should not be posting when its way past bedtime.

Exactly, while in its ultimate form it would be nice to overhaul HERO into a smoother interface from the ground up.  I highly doubt that I am the person to undertake that task... let alone nearly solo.   However I feel that the current mechanics of HERO are still very servicable...but are in dire need of a better user interface for the player (and GM at times) to allow focus on the play. 
 
HERO is a toolkit first and game second in many ways.   Even video games that have VERY detailed information for abilities and statistics for the player to view do not have them on the main screens, they are usually in tooltips or you push a button while highlighting the ability to get the FULL details, otherwise it gives you just the most important bits for actual gameplay.

Do we really need to have a 6 line stat block with powers, advantages, limitations, skill levels and the like for a sword.   Or does the player just need to know.   [ Sword:  melee range,  +1 to Hit,  1d6+1 K, STR Min 12 ]   and ideally the adjusted damage would be given to them as well.

Starting especially in 5e and 6e character sheets have become VERY long, often up to 2-3 pages in the published books.  This is alot for a player to take in and translate on the fly.  And most of it is irrelevent to them.   

I am trying to come up with a UI overhaul that can translate the Toolkit HERO gibberish into something more simple language that will allow players to focus on the important details only and PLAY.  They can learn more of the behind the scenes elements over time.
 
 
 
At this moment in time it is very much the Option 2.   The character is created (for learning games probably by GM) or character sheet is taken from one of the published sources and then a smaller character sheet is created translating things over to make it easier for the player to find the things they need quickly.   That being said originally I was looking at doing something like option 1... but i felt it makes conversion of 30+ years of products too involved.  

That being said.... LONG term I would like to make it so that it is easy to build in the system this way too... but that seems way more niche use...  it is more important that the system to fast and simple to use and that any existing character can be converted to it with minimal efforts and a few notes.

I have run a few extended champions campaigns for groups and solo and found that PRE attacks use are very dependent on the player and concept.
 
Supers vs Supers there is little use for PRE attacks, unless the character is specifically built to use them.  Because as you said very few players I saw really took PRE up much past 20 or so.  However my gfs solo character uses them often...  especially when going up against groups of lesser enemies... usually to try and get a few to hesitate for 1/2 phase or to run.   I tend to be a little more giving with the extra dice for situational mods... but she did also have the character buy extra PRE only for fear/intimidation so its on brand.
 
 

We came alive to the power of PRE when I designed a character for my friend based on Marvel Comics' Jack of Hearts.
 
I boosted his PRE to 60 because we wanted him to be VERY impressive.  He became moreso when my friend leaned into this, creating tailored soliloquies to boost and, usually, contributing with flashy shows of power.
 
He really cleared the arena, the agent types I typically used as a threat cloud and distraction were often totally blown away. 
 
Made everyone aware of a new combat dynamic.
 
Doc

When it came to Genetic Upgrades and Replicated Humans, the book was big enough that I just didn't have the energy to go into the sort of detail. I did supply several example Replicated Humans (Domestic, Escort, Lynx, Puma) which showed the range of models possible. What things Replicates have over Genetic Upgrades is increased stat maximum (STR, DEX, CON and so on). They are tough, stronger, faster, and harder to kill then a genetic upgrade. Also, increased Perception bonuses due to things like cat or dog ears and so on.

As for why play one over the other, it comes down to a matter of character concept. In addition, I think I noted that PC replicated humans won't have "Must Obey Owner’s Commands" which is why they are PCs now.

These need to be migrated to 6e, but here you go, this may help:
 
http://surbrook.devermore.net/worldbooks/kazei5/k5char/k5char.html

Preach!

Exactly, while in its ultimate form it would be nice to overhaul HERO into a smoother interface from the ground up.  I highly doubt that I am the person to undertake that task... let alone nearly solo.   However I feel that the current mechanics of HERO are still very servicable...but are in dire need of a better user interface for the player (and GM at times) to allow focus on the play. 
 
HERO is a toolkit first and game second in many ways.   Even video games that have VERY detailed information for abilities and statistics for the player to view do not have them on the main screens, they are usually in tooltips or you push a button while highlighting the ability to get the FULL details, otherwise it gives you just the most important bits for actual gameplay.

Do we really need to have a 6 line stat block with powers, advantages, limitations, skill levels and the like for a sword.   Or does the player just need to know.   [ Sword:  melee range,  +1 to Hit,  1d6+1 K, STR Min 12 ]   and ideally the adjusted damage would be given to them as well.

Starting especially in 5e and 6e character sheets have become VERY long, often up to 2-3 pages in the published books.  This is alot for a player to take in and translate on the fly.  And most of it is irrelevent to them.   

I am trying to come up with a UI overhaul that can translate the Toolkit HERO gibberish into something more simple language that will allow players to focus on the important details only and PLAY.  They can learn more of the behind the scenes elements over time.
 
 
 
At this moment in time it is very much the Option 2.   The character is created (for learning games probably by GM) or character sheet is taken from one of the published sources and then a smaller character sheet is created translating things over to make it easier for the player to find the things they need quickly.   That being said originally I was looking at doing something like option 1... but i felt it makes conversion of 30+ years of products too involved.  

That being said.... LONG term I would like to make it so that it is easy to build in the system this way too... but that seems way more niche use...  it is more important that the system to fast and simple to use and that any existing character can be converted to it with minimal efforts and a few notes.

First off, +1 to "all skills" is deceptive.  You don't get "all skills", you get "any one skill at a time". The actual stat is far better for complementary skills, as well as giving you all the other advantages of those characteristics.
 
On INT, I would make +1 to all PER a 5 point investment and downgrade for only limited sense groups.  That's about the only item that needs to change.  If you only want the skill rolls, you buy +8 INT, no PER adders and +8 PRE no PRE attacks.
 
Try building that skillmonger as only highly trained - average INT or PRE and he had to work to get good at those skills.
 
Either skill levels should be cheaper (and so should PRE attack bonuses) or the characteristics should be priced higher.  Buying all the benefits of higher characteristics individually should not be markedly more expensive than buying up the characteristics.

I don't see any need to change anything, but its your campaign to do with what you wish.

The big drive here is to make things visibly less complex and folk like subtraction less than addition (and both better than multiplication or division). 
 
You raise some issues there but it might be that you could replace characteristic numbers (on the character sheet) with modifiers.  So DEX 10 would be 0, Dex 13 or 15 would be +1 etc.  You could then simply have the base skill as [DEX mod].
 
If the base mechanic behind this presentation of the system is that you get a success by rolling 10 or better on a modified dice roll you hide all the calculations from the player.  Peeking behind the curtain you can see it all but the DEX modifier is calculated as DEX/5-2 and written on the sheet as a simple number.  Skills can then utilise that modifier without regularly having to revisit the formula.
 
Personally, I would only have a characteristic on the sheet if it was different from 0, the presumption should be there is no modifier to the skill.
 
Doc
 
 
I have, over the years come to think of characteristics as something people have come to expect in their games and they were only there because D&D conditioned people to expect them.

I think stuff like STR and DEX and PRE are black box entities that do not belong in a "pure" HERO system.  They are kind of an amalgam of skill and power and they skew things because of their existence.  Just look at the squabble about hand attack if you dont believe me.  We would be better off without actual characteristics and a bit of guidance on how you might represent stuff like - "he is hugely strong" through powers and skills.  And yes I realise you might need to put one or two things like Lifting into the powers to accommodate this.
 
Doc

Mental Illusions based on PRE would be like Super-gaslighting.
"Do you believe me, or your own eyes!"

There is alot here but I'll try and sum up.   
 
Yes it is just "add up" system at the core in place of Roll Or Under of Base HERO.   However that really is just all it is... a math flip at base.
 
The core skill for Base HERO is 11-  either as a default skill that is purchased at 3 points for that value like KS or it is what you get for a 9+CHA/5 with a stat of 10.   Therefore it is the base value I am working everything around.
 
The math for rolling 11 or less on 3d6 is the same as the math for rolling 10 or higher on 3d6... so this is our point of flipping the math.
 
As far as 'experienced' skills.. you are right there is not term in book.  That is my place holder for any skill that is over 11-, either by having higher stats that give you better role or having spent points on a skill to raise it in the Base HERO system.   Therefore skill values are calculated off olds sheets as follows.

8- roll is 3 under 11- so it becomes a -3 skill roll in the adding system.
11- roll is equal to 11- so it becomes a +0 skill roll in the adding system.
13- roll is 2 higher than 11- so it becomes a +2 skill roll in the adding system.   (also this would be Randall's skill roll in Base HERO)
 
Does this help clarify?
 
Agreed... i do not like them either.  But i should at least try to make them fuctional if I can.   Optional rule anyway.

At this time I am not looking to remove CHA from skills.   What I am doing is working on something that can be viewed as stand alone but also simple to convert existing hero products over to.
 
 
At this time it would probably have to be something like the formula above or something along the lines of Skill Value = +1 per full 5 points in CHA over 10.   
 
I am not sure about PRE vs Mental Powers.  However I do feel that the EGO/INT system from 3rd Edition works much better than what we have in the current versions of HERO.   So perhaps something like that.   Still reviewing the options there.
 

I toyed with the idea of a D&D game with humans and gnomes only and have certain classes only available to the races. Since I play AD&D/OSR games, I'll go with those classes. I would also remove the level limits for gnomes.
 
Both races: assassin, bard, fighter, thief
Humans only: cleric, magic-user, monk, paladin
Gnomes only: druid, illusionist, ranger
 
With the exception of the monk, the classes limited by race have counterparts which perform similar roles: cleric/druid, magic-user/illusionist, paladin/ranger. These classes would normally be seen as defenders of their race, assuming nonevil alignment.

The main issue with gnomes, and many demihumans, is that they are smeared together in the background mythology.  The terms gnome, halfling, brownie, pixie, goblin, and elf are arguably synonymous across a swath of European myth.  It largely boils down to size and temperament.
 
Hero's flexibility makes it well suited to deal with poorly-defined speciation.  You can define your gnome, halfling, troll, half-elf-half-giant, lycanthrope, half-demon, full-demon, half-lizard minotaur, or whatever and the mechanics are there.  It becomes a campaign question to define the various races, so it falls to the GM and players to decide how weird they want it to get.  You could run a maximum weird Mos Eisley-like campaign in Hero if you wanted to.  But I reckon most players are most comfortable with something Tolkienlike.

While there is truth to that, as stated by someone who a friend introduced to the Hero System & Champions in the post-2000s, "sure some powers are broken, or can be broken in combo with others -- but it also tells you which powers and advantages and limitations are broken." He was, of course, referring to the magnifying glass and stop sign labels in the rulebooks. Something that I had not considered, as most other rule sets don't highlight these...

HERO: Skill Mechanics Rework v0.1
 
Goal: The goal of this document is rework and streamline the dice mechanics for HERO System in order to simplify and increase ease of use for new players. It is not looking to recreate systems from scratch but to use existing systems in slightly different ways to facilitate faster and smoother gameplay. However later versions my offer alternate system methods, but for how looking for something that can get into game usable states quickly.    Thank you for @Doc Democracy for the inspiration for many of these ideas from the examples character sheets posted and to everyone on the boards in earlier discussions on this!
 
 
Core Mechanic: In order to keep in current gaming trends and to streamline how dice rolls work in play, changing from Official HERO rolling to an additive system needing to equal or exceed a target number.
 
New Roll: 3d6 + Relevant Skill + Modifiers VS Target DC. (Base DC = 10)
11 or less on 3d6 is the same as 10 or higher on 3d6  
Combat Rolls (old): 11 + OCV – DCV = Number or Less on 3d6
- alternate this could be viewed as 11 + OCV – 3d6 = Target DCV hit.
 
Combat Rolls (new): 3d6 + OCV + Skill Levels + Modifiers = Target DCV
for this system DCV is calculated as normal but added to a base of 10 example: DCV 5 character would be DCV 15  
 
Skill Checks: Perform skill checks by the core mechanic (3d6 + Skill Level + Mods vs Target DC)
 
Difficulty Class: Base DC 10 modified by difficulty. Character needs to equal or exceed the target DC in order to succeeded.
 
DC By Task Difficulty: (these numbers need review, may need to modify by genre?)
Routine: 5-7 Easy: 8-9 Average: 10-11 Hard: 12-13 Extreme: 14-15 Folly: 16+  
Skill Conversion from normal HERO: for sake of conversion, the skill information will be converted from standard HERO System rules. Purchase as normal, then convert over to the new format after.
 
Skill rolls in the new system start at +0 for the equivalent of an 11- roll (BASE), each point under BASE roll is the equal to -1 on the skill roll and each point over BASE is equal to +1 skill roll.
 
Examples:
 
Everyman Skills: Standard HERO skill is 8- roll, new system is -3 skill roll

Standard Skills: Standard HERO skill is 11- roll, new system is +0 skill roll
 
Experienced Skills: Standard HERO skill is 13- roll, the new system is +2 skill roll
 
SKILL MODIFIERS: As in standard HERO there will be circumstances that will modify the skill DC or Skill Roll itself.
 
Bonuses: as per HERO – extra time, positive circumstances, etc – this are bonus that adds to your existing Skill Roll. GM will inform the player of the bonus at time of roll. Penalties: as per HERO – rushed attempt, lack of proper tools, poor circumstances, etc – these penalties will increase the Target DC by their amount.  
Example: Randall the Rogue is trying to pick the lock on the back door of shop during the middle of the night. Unfortunately his lock picks were confiscated earlier by the guards and so he is having to wing it. Randall's base Lockpicking (security systems) skill is +2 (13- in classic HERO) and he is taking taking extra time so the GM gives him +1 bonus. The lock is decent but nothing special, Average quality, so the GM decides the base DC is only 11, however due to the lack of lockpicks there would be a -2 penalty causing the final Target DC to be 13. Therefore Randall's player will be rolling 3d6 + Skill of 2 + Extra time bonus of 1 for a total of 3d6+3 and will need to get a total of 13 or higher.
 
Obviously all of this shakes out to being the same as classic hero expect that the players only have to worry about any bonuses they are given not the total of the penalties and will only have to roll and add. Looking this over I note that perhaps I need to rework the standard Skill Modifier chart to just make it all additive as well for ease of use. I am open to feedback there.
 
 
UPCOMING ADDITIONS:
 
Characteristics Contests: based on how STR rolls use BODY totals for Grabbing in combat. Working on expansion of this for dealing with things that would normally be handled by CHA skill rolls. Currently looking over things like Forcing Open doors, Initiative Ties, Reflex checks when two characters are both trying to grab same items.  
Presence Attacks: This is another stand alone system that is not utilized elsewhere. Not I am looking to see if there is a way to give this more weight... or at least way to use other stats the same way. Perhaps (for older editions) a way to make Comeliness Attacks in a similar vein. Open to ideas here.  Also trying to decide if PRE and EGO are defense or if that is too easy for Egoists to ignore PRE attacks.  
 
--One last note:  I would like to update this in the future without spamming new topics.  Is there a way to edit the starting post just later on, or can I only add new posts down the chain?

I get the flip from roll low to roll high, that's trivial.
 
You CAN'T use a reference to the old sheet because that information doesn't exist...you're doing a new sheet.  So give the method.  A standard roll's base value is 9 + (CHAR/5).  It's not 11, it's not 13, it's none of those.  So for your system, it's (CHAR/5) - 2.  For the starting value of 10, CHAR/5 == 2.  -2, means you're at 0.  11- roll low, 10+ in roll high.
 
Also:  don't conflate the bonus from an elevated characteristic, with anything like a level (+PER from enhanced perception, and some similar instances, is a form of level.)  They're separate.  I should make the process clearer:
 
Skill roll mechanics
3d6 + Skill/PER baseline + skill/PER levels/bonus + situational mods >= Task Difficulty
 
As I noted, this just lets you precompute all your baselines, so you don't have to do that at the table, then just incorporate the (usually) simple numbers for levels/bonus and situational mods.