Champions 3rd Edition Martial Arts Question

[greypaladin_01]

Recently started reading through Champions 3rd edition out of historic curiosity, having never looked at the rules from before The BBB era.   Looking over Martial Arts, they are very different, but simpler in a good way, from what I am used to and I need some help with making sense of the mechanic.

 

Specifically the way it is described in the "Adding Damage" section on pg 75 (using Green Dragon for the example) does not match the actual Green Dragon character sheet.  I am trying to figure out if I am missing something or if this is one of the classic "math errors" from the older editions.

 

For reference to those that don't have the book my question follows this:   I know there are rules against putting too much off a book text in the forum so I am trying to just generalize for the sake of the math. 

 

- Character has 15 STR and Martial Arts with 1 level of damage increase according to both the Example and Character Sheet. 

 

- The example shows that this gives the character 6d6 punch and 7.5d6 kick

- the character sheet shows that the character has 7d6 punch and 9d6 kick

 

Based off how the rules are saying to calculate everything the example version seems to be the correct one, but the main book and campaign book for 3rd edition have Green Dragon character sheets showing the larger damage dice.  Does anyone have insight into the discrepancy?

 

[steriaca]

Basically for the cost of the character's STR the character has access to the martial maneuvers in the book. That was how 3rd edition Martial Arts operates under. I believe thors things are Martial Block, and the kick.

 

I'm a 4ed BBB baby myself, so I never encountered the pre 4ed martial arts rules except in the more vague means.

[assault]

6 hours ago, greypaladin_01 said:

Recently started reading through Champions 3rd edition out of historic curiosity, having never looked at the rules from before The BBB era.   Looking over Martial Arts, they are very different, but simpler in a good way, from what I am used to and I need some help with making sense of the mechanic.

 

Specifically the way it is described in the "Adding Damage" section on pg 75 (using Green Dragon for the example) does not match the actual Green Dragon character sheet.  I am trying to figure out if I am missing something or if this is one of the classic "math errors" from the older editions.

 

For reference to those that don't have the book my question follows this:   I know there are rules against putting too much off a book text in the forum so I am trying to just generalize for the sake of the math. 

 

- Character has 15 STR and Martial Arts with 1 level of damage increase according to both the Example and Character Sheet. 

 

- The example shows that this gives the character 6d6 punch and 7.5d6 kick

- the character sheet shows that the character has 7d6 punch and 9d6 kick

 

Based off how the rules are saying to calculate everything the example version seems to be the correct one, but the main book and campaign book for 3rd edition have Green Dragon character sheets showing the larger damage dice.  Does anyone have insight into the discrepancy?

 

 

Check how many points he spent on Martial Arts.

 

If it's 22, 6/7.5 is correct.

If it's 30, 7.5/9 is correct.

[greypaladin_01]

53 minutes ago, assault said:

 

Check how many points he spent on Martial Arts.

 

If it's 22, 6/7.5 is correct.

If it's 30, 7.5/9 is correct.

 

The total spent on Marital Arts is 30,  15 for base and 15 for extra level.  But what I am not understanding is HOW they get to the 7d6/9d6 numbers.   My understanding is you take the STR 15 x.15 or x2  to get the new "STR" value... and extra levels add .5 more.

Unless I am misunderstanding something and the 15 points extra is adding 2 levels not one?   So the multipliers should then be x2.5 and x3?

 

[assault]

16 minutes ago, greypaladin_01 said:

Unless I am misunderstanding something and the 15 points extra is adding 2 levels not one?   So the multipliers should then be x2.5 and x3?

 

 

That's the issue. An extra "level" is half the initial cost. So 30 points gets you two levels.

 

I'm just sitting around having a beer, so check the rulebook, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

[Ninja-Bear]

I believe you modify the STR first THEN divide by 5 to get DC. And don’t forget to round in Hero’s favor! 

[Ninja-Bear]

On 5/6/2023 at 1:21 AM, assault said:

 

That's the issue. An extra "level" is half the initial cost. So 30 points gets you two levels.

 

I'm just sitting around having a beer, so check the rulebook, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

And you get to round down to the Hero’s favor there as well!

[greypaladin_01]

I started in 4th Edition, so this earlier version of Martial Arts is just strange to me.  However for a 4color style game it actually seems to go smoother than the detail of the Ninja Hero style we have with 4th and beyond.

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, greypaladin_01 said:

I started in 4th Edition, so this earlier version of Martial Arts is just strange to me.  However for a 4color style game it actually seems to go smoother than the detail of the Ninja Hero style we have with 4th and beyond.

Same here.

[Hugh Neilson]

7d6/9d6 would reflect a "whole dice only" approach.  When did half dice become official?

[Ninja-Bear]

33 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

7d6/9d6 would reflect a "whole dice only" approach.  When did half dice become official?

I’ll take a stab and say Fourth edition. Possibly Ninja Hero?

[greypaladin_01]

4th edition is possible.  But I dont really recall seeing half dice for anything other than Killing Attacks until 5th edition.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

However for a 4color style game it actually seems to go smoother than the detail of the Ninja Hero style we have with 4th and beyond.

 

It does, but its also super easy to break and was a little unbalanced.

[rravenwood]

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

7d6/9d6 would reflect a "whole dice only" approach.  When did half dice become official?

 

Half-dice and "+1" were present even back in 1st edition, although they were not explained very clearly there (they could be extrapolated to Powers from usage in the STR table and the "Weapons" section).  2E really made it clearer, however, offering specific explanations of half-dice in the "Determining Damage" section.

[greypaladin_01]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

It does, but its also super easy to break and was a little unbalanced.

 

I think you just describe all of Hero System with that  😁

[Scott Ruggels]

On 5/12/2023 at 5:25 PM, greypaladin_01 said:

I started in 4th Edition, so this earlier version of Martial Arts is just strange to me.  However for a 4color style game it actually seems to go smoother than the detail of the Ninja Hero style we have with 4th and beyond.

In the late 80s and early 90s, the Hong Kong film renaissance occurred with John Woo, Ringo Lam, Chow Yun Fat, and the like. Both contemporary, as well as period films were produced but with higher budgets than the Sir Run Run Shaw produced films of the 70s. The films would headline the Toronto Film Festival and from there spread to art houses all over North America. These films were a major source of entertainment at Hero Games, and a heavy influence upon Aaron Alston, and his gaming group. Ninja Hero was the product of that era, and his system, playtest Ed by his Dallas TX crew. Slid into main hero by 4th Edition.  

[steriaca]

I still wish the "build a martial arts style" rules were in the main books instead of Ninja Hero.

[KawangaKid]

On 5/15/2023 at 3:39 AM, greypaladin_01 said:

 

I think you just describe all of Hero System with that  😁

While there is truth to that, as stated by someone who a friend introduced to the Hero System & Champions in the post-2000s, "sure some powers are broken, or can be broken in combo with others -- but it also tells you which powers and advantages and limitations are broken." He was, of course, referring to the magnifying glass and stop sign labels in the rulebooks. Something that I had not considered, as most other rule sets don't highlight these...

[Word Sensei 515]

What's with the 9d6 Kick? Shouldn't that be 12d6? Is this just him being nerfed, or is it -1 die per SPD over 4? Well, -1/2d6 per SPD over 4 would be much better, leaving a 12 SPD speedster with 8d6 & not 4d6. -1/3 die per SPD over 4 is possible as well, just think of KA dice: 2/3 is 1/2d6, 1/3 is +1, which rounds down to zero. 12 SPD =-2 1/2 DC = 9 1/2 DC, beyond that is too complicated, it'd have to be per 2 Speed over 4 for alternating bonuses, you'll need those in your good fight.

Early editions 1st, 2nd, 3rd were good at screwing up the NPCs with all poor builds, that's definitely it, just showing how a balancing method would work, it's actually PD & ED & sometimes Strength balanced by DEX & SPD,

How does 4th edition compensate for the different damage dice bonuses; how much with +4d6? 12d6, 16d6 or is there a 14d6 rule?

A combo of 3rd & 4th might be good. Rather than multiply your STR, just add dice for 4 pts. apiece. Max STR dice = 1/3 Max Damage Class, +1 SPD BA.

For that, you get your maneuvers, which aren't really that unbalancing for the Strength your giving up, which adds to your PD, REC & STUN. Or does it?

 

[Ninja-Bear]

@Word Sensei 515, who should have a 12D6 Kick? I’m not sure who you are referring too.

[assault]

17 hours ago, Word Sensei 515 said:

What's with the 9d6 Kick? Shouldn't that be 12d6? Is this just him being nerfed, or is it -1 die per SPD over 4?

 

 

There is no (RAW) SPD related nerfing in any edition.

Assuming we are talking about Green Dragon, 9d6 is correct for the kick.

Under editions 1-3, the base cost of Martial Arts for a character with 15 Str was 15 points. That gave a +1 modifier to Martial Kick, so 6d6.

For half the value of the character's Str (7.5 in this case, rounding to 7), the modifier would increase by +0.5. So if the character spends 22 points, the kick would do 3 (from Str), multiplied by 2.5. So, 7.5d6 (rounded or otherwise - that's a separate question).

Another such increase, bringing to total MA spend to 30 points, would add another +0.5 to the kick, meaning it would do 3x Str damage, bringing it up to 9d6.

These calculations may seem clumsy (they are!), but a character who spends 35 points on Str (from a base of 10, giving 45 Str), will also do 9d6. A character who spends 45 points on Energy Blast will also do 9d6. These costs are balanced against each other, each with different advantages and disadvantages.

 

 

[Word Sensei 515]

1 hour ago, assault said:

There is no (RAW) SPD related nerfing in any edition.

& nobody needs this in the slightest. 5th edition says because Speedsters can easily dodge & adjust attacks, they can & should do maximum damage along with everyone else. Ergo, that's totally wrong, plain & simple. I didn't think some hidden rule was the answer, it just resembled it.

I actually found a good explanation for this with a DC conversion of the classic character Green Dragon. Something to do with his chi training reaching this potential but he lacks the ability to train more, up to his full potential as a martial artist. Nothing a staff of smiting can't fix, dragon powers would be nice too.

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

15 hours ago, Word Sensei 515 said:

& nobody needs this in the slightest. 5th edition says because Speedsters can easily dodge & adjust attacks, they can & should do maximum damage along with everyone else. Ergo, that's totally wrong, plain & simple. I didn't think some hidden rule was the answer, it just resembled it.

I actually found a good explanation for this with a DC conversion of the classic character Green Dragon. Something to do with his chi training reaching this potential but he lacks the ability to train more, up to his full potential as a martial artist. Nothing a staff of smiting can't fix, dragon powers would be nice too.

 

 

So you are thinking Speedsters are overpowered?

[Word Sensei 515]

No, I meant I was wrong, not that speedsters shouldn't be able to dodge better & adjust their attacks!

On 7/2/2014 at 4:50 AM, assault said:

I treat speedsters as a variant kind of martial artist. They move (have higher SPD) a bit more often than everyone else, they go first, and are a bit less capable of taking a hit than the "average" character. Or not.

 

They have really good movement powers, and go first, but otherwise they're just a martial artist with fewer skills.

Skills are actually the same or better; it's DEF that should be a little more limited, a thinner sheet of paper vs. multiple scissors, the brick is the rock.

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, Word Sensei 515 said:

No, I meant I was wrong, not that speedsters shouldn't be able to dodge better & adjust their attacks!

Skills are actually the same or better; it's DEF that should be a little more limited, a thinner sheet of paper vs. multiple scissors, the brick is the rock.

Ah, ok. Yeah, typically they do.